Guy quits the Millitary, and tells us about its corruption. - General

[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;40833265]I don't think you understand what war crime means.[/QUOTE] I thought invading a country under false pretences was criminal enough?

Quite frankly PinkPanzer, I think it's unnerving that you so pig headedly refuse ANY criticism towards the US military or the invasion of Iraq. Don't you have any ability to reflect or, even simpler; read the goddamn news?

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40833307]Oh yeah, invading a country on no concrete grounds isn't a war crime now? Officially it's cited as "pre-emptive self defense", but that didn't hold when they didn't find any weapons of mass destruction. And can you please stop rating me dumb without hearing my arguments? It's childish.[/QUOTE] If invading another country for personal security is considered a war crime every nation under the sun who has attacked another country has committed a definable war crime by causing war. It's not a war crime, it's an act of war. We differentiate war crimes and acts of war for a reason. You can't outlaw war, but you can dictate the terms of how war is conducted. [quote=NOR_92] but that didn't hold when they didn't find any weapons of mass destruction.[/quote] Why does everyone keep propagating this. We did find weapons of mass destruction. We didn't find [I]nukes[/I], but we did find WMD's. WMD's Sadaam had proven himself to be crazy enough to use, as seen in the 1980's during the Iran-Iraq War. Were they any immediate danger to the U.S? Probably not. But given the U.S's ties with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia taking Sadaam out of power was a very important move politically. The military action itself may have been off-base and relied on outdated Intel and false rationalization, but saying there was no perceived justification is wrong. [quote=wikipedia]The report stated that "Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent." However, all are thought to be pre-Gulf War munitions.[118] These munitions meet the technical definition of weapons of mass destruction, according to the commander of the National Ground Intelligence Center. "These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee. The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, though agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Bomimo;40825913]That's not the point. The point was that he was being conditioned to commit those warcrimes BY the military. That's why he threw his medals and ribbons and quit. They were all psychologically rebuilt to be aggressive hate-machines for the frontlines. If anything is criminal, it's the use of brainwashing during military training. But who am i Kidding, It's used everywhere in America anyway.[/QUOTE] Yeah it couldn't possibly be that a psychopath is just trying to blame someone else so that his psychopathic rampages are not his issue anymore. He simply must be believed! Lol'd at your brainwashing comment, definitely know what kind of person you are, impressionable and paranoid conspiracy theorist.

[QUOTE=Super Muffin;40833420]If invading another country for personal security is considered a war crime every nation under the sun who has attacked another country has committed a definable war crime by causing war. It's not a war crime, it's an act of war. We differentiate war crimes and acts of war for a reason. You can't outlaw war, but you can dictate the terms of how war is conducted. Why does everyone keep propagating this. We did find weapons of mass destruction. We didn't find [I]nukes[/I], but we did find WMD's. WMD's Sadaam had proven himself to be crazy enough to use in the 1980's during the Iran-Iraq War.[/QUOTE] You're over-simplifying this to cater to your opinion. And again, showing to past invasions does not justify this one. Let's take a look at the Iraq invasion: it was initiated on the grounds of "pre-emptive self defense". The Nazi leaders that invaded Norway in 1940 did so on the same principles (and no this is not a dumb US military = the third reich parallel, I'm speaking strictly military here) - they attacked because they knew British forces would be using this country as a way into Germany. Now they knew this, intel was clear that this was what the Brits were planning. And what happened to them? They were executed after the war for "war crimes". In allied eyes the pre-emptive self defense did not hold up, despite the clear evidence of a British attack. In other words, a DIRECT military threat to their country. Half a century later the country that condemned German military leaders did the same thing, pig headedly defending it with even less evidence that the Nazis had back in 1940. As for your WMD argument, it clearly says that they were erroded and couldn't be used. It is also known that totalitarian, "extreme" military powers pose no great threat to a country as far away and as powerful as the US. Just look at North-Korea. And the whole "well terrorists could use them" bullshit is nothing but fear-mongering used to justify the invasion. So all of your arguments fall flat.

Look at the USBP in texas for even more corruption. I got a cousin working there and he says most-all agents are bought by the cartels

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40833581] As for your MMD argument, it clearly says that they were erroded and couldn't be used. It is also known that totalitarian, "extreme" military powers pose no great threat to a country as far away and as powerful as the US. Just look at North-Korea. And the whole "well terrorists could use them" bullshit is nothing but fear-mongering used to justify the invasion. So all of your arguments fall flat.[/QUOTE] [quote=Wikipedia]Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, though agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said.[/quote] ...He clearly states the killy bits could be dismantled and used. Think of it this way. Take enriched uranium out of a nuke, you still have enriched uranium you can use. A sarin gas bomb still has sarin gas in it, even if the bomb doesn't work. You're also completely ignoring the political pressure from U.S allies. The U.S was afraid terrorists would get their hands on stuff from Saddam, and allies wanted him gone. Hindsight is 20/20 but the justification at the time was reasonable. [quote=NOR_92] Nazis[/quote] lol Goodwin's law.

[QUOTE=Super Muffin;40833686]...He clearly states the killy bits could be dismantled and used. Think of it this way. Take enriched uranium out of a nuke, you still have enriched uranium. A sarin gas bomb still has sarin gas in it. You're also completely ignoring the political pressure from U.S allies who wanted Sadaam gone. lol Goodwin's law.[/QUOTE] Hahah, completely paranoid, hypothetical bullshit. A probability warrants the killing of millions of innocent people now? That's great.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40833403]Quite frankly PinkPanzer, I think it's unnerving that you so pig headedly refuse ANY criticism towards the US military or the invasion of Iraq. Don't you have any ability to reflect or, even simpler; read the goddamn news?[/QUOTE] Um, I never said anything about Iraq being at all justified or our military being competent. But thanks for the strawman. I do have the ability to tell when you are shouting blatant bullshit. Starting a war over shakey pretenses is not a war crime. It is by no definition, a war crime.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40833725]Hahah, completely paranoid, hypothetical bullshit. A probability warrants the killing of millions of innocent people now? That's great.[/QUOTE] Yeah because we totally went in there to intentionally piss in their oil and fail horribly in our "hearts and minds" campaign while creating one of the worst anti-american sentiments in years because that's what we like to do because we're literally Hitler. Bro what? I don't even...

[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;40833730]Um, I never said anything about Iraq being at all justified or our military being competent. But thanks for the strawman. I do have the ability to tell when you are shouting blatant bullshit. Starting a war over shakey pretenses is not a war crime. It is by no definition, a war crime.[/QUOTE] Uhh. They're more than shaky, they're dubious. Of course it's a war crime when you invade another country without reason. It's not the fucking middle ages.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40833924]Uhh. They're more than shaky, they're dubious. Of course it's a war crime when you invade another country without reason. It's not the fucking middle ages.[/QUOTE] You needed a reason in the middle ages too. There were three reasons given for an invasion of Iraq: 1. Pre-emptively attack before they could further aid terrorist groups. 2. Iraq had refused to submit to UN nuclear checks. 3. Iraq was brutalizing the kurds. All three of those seem like fairly decent reasons.

[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;40833946]You needed a reason in the middle ages too. There were three reasons given for an invasion of Iraq: 1. Pre-emptively attack before they could further aid terrorist groups. 2. Iraq had refused to submit to UN nuclear checks. 3. Iraq was brutalizing the kurds. All three of those seem like fairly decent reasons.[/QUOTE] Aiding of terrorist groups without further evidence than erroded, old materials is nothing more than speculation. They were brutalizing the kurds, but to be frank - the US doesn't mobilize such an enormous military force to help out one oppressed people. That's a waste of money, seeing it from their perspective. And again, all this warrants the deaths of millions of innocent Iraqis and American casualties?

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40833985]Aiding of terrorist groups without further evidence than erroded, old materials is nothing more than speculation[/QUOTE] How are you not getting this. So lets say you have a jack-in-the-box, right? It's old and rusty so you can't turn the handle for the creepy-ass clown toy to pop out normally, but you could take some pliers and pop the top pretty easily to pull out the creepy-ass clown and scare your friends with it even if the box doesn't work as it should. Now just imagine this with sarin gas that horribly kills you instead of a creepy-ass clown toy. [quote] the US doesn't mobilize such an enormous military force to help out one oppressed people[/quote] Have you ever heard of Somalia? You know, the UN food shipments getting stolen and the US soldiers going in to stop the food being hoarded / stolen, etc. Or the Marshall plan. Or Sarajevo.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40833985]Aiding of terrorist groups without further evidence than erroded, old materials is nothing more than speculation. They were brutalizing the kurds, but to be frank - the US doesn't mobilize such an enormous military force to help out one oppressed people. That's a waste of money, seeing it from their perspective. And again, all this warrants the deaths of millions of innocent Iraqis and American casualties?[/QUOTE] See: The Gulf War

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40833985]Aiding of terrorist groups without further evidence than erroded, old materials is nothing more than speculation. They were brutalizing the kurds, but to be frank - the US doesn't mobilize such an enormous military force to help out one oppressed people. That's a waste of money, seeing it from their perspective. And again, all this warrants the deaths of millions of innocent Iraqis and American casualties?[/QUOTE] Did you realize that Saddam had a Napoleon complex? Iraq and Iran re-invented trench warfare and Saddam started to kick around Kuwait and threaten to destabilize the entire region by firing SCUD missiles into Israel and holding a good bunch of oil by restricting trade from the Red Sea. Lets not forget how he became even more fucking nuts after a failed revolution that happened in his country and his willingness to unleash chemical weapons upon a civilian populace.

[QUOTE=Marik Bentusi;40826798]It's not about survival, it's about power tripping and dehumanization. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg[/media][/QUOTE] don't listen to those who say, "don't be a hero" be a hero, fuck everything else in the way of whats right.

[QUOTE=Bomimo;40828979] Here we are. A person who never attended school or ever watched any "news". I can't blame you for not sensing it, but from an outside perspective in a country with actual objective school curriculums and media, both of yours are seeped through with incompetent narcissists that thrive on fear and exploitation. Or haven't you noticed how you're conditioned to be afraid and angry all of your damn life?[/QUOTE] "I'm not going to source anything because I can't, so I'm going to insult him instead and assume things about his life"

[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;40825835]Really nice excuse and all, but he still comitted war crimes. Cant say I feel for him at all.[/QUOTE] lol ok lets arrest vietnam vets too then

[QUOTE=Super Muffin;40834049]How are you not getting this. So lets say you have a jack-in-the-box, right? It's old and rusty so you can't turn the handle for the creepy-ass clown toy to pop out normally, but you could take some pliers and pop the top pretty easily to pull out the creepy-ass clown and scare your friends with it even if the box doesn't work as it should. Now just imagine this with sarin gas that horribly kills you instead of a creepy-ass clown toy. Have you ever heard of Somalia? You know, the UN food shipments getting stolen and the US soldiers going in to stop the food being hoarded / stolen, etc. Or the Marshall plan. Or Sarajevo.[/QUOTE] Yes and I'm sure they too ended in a fucking massacre. My point is that both invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq aren't worth it. They're messy situations that has ended in nothing but bloodshed. I just can't get my head around how you can advocate this when it doesn't benefit you as an American citizen. How many lives have been lost on American side? And again - they don't help out just to help out. The US, and other Western powers have supported dictators for decades. If they're mobilizing, it's just not from the "goodness of their hearts". If this was their main motive, then why exactly Iraq? What about South America during the cold war? What about Georgia? North Korea? States around the world massacre and push around their people without the West giving a flying fuck unless they can find some contorted evidence that said states will attack. "Attack" not only in an orthodox, military meaning - but also posing as a threat to US dominance as an imperial power economically. And OH NO, trench warfare! This clearly means he's gonna dig his way to the US. So fucking what if he was insane, he did not pose a direct threat to the US. [QUOTE=SKEEA;40834050]See: The Gulf War[/QUOTE] See: [URL]http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199102--.htm[/URL]

Yeah and totally ignore the fact that he was willing to destabilize the entire MidEast and not only just affect the region but the rest of the world.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40838645]Yes and I'm sure they too ended in a fucking massacre. See: [URL]http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199102--.htm[/URL][/QUOTE] Did you seriously just try to claim that the plan to rebuild Europe ended in a massacre? Are you even serious right now?

[QUOTE=NOR_92;40833581]You're over-simplifying this to cater to your opinion. And again, showing to past invasions does not justify this one. Let's take a look at the Iraq invasion: it was initiated on the grounds of "pre-emptive self defense". The Nazi leaders that invaded Norway in 1940 did so on the same principles (and no this is not a dumb US military = the third reich parallel, I'm speaking strictly military here) - they attacked because they knew British forces would be using this country as a way into Germany. Now they knew this, intel was clear that this was what the Brits were planning. And what happened to them? They were executed after the war for "war crimes". [/QUOTE] That is almost entirely irrelevant. That invasion wasn't the grounds for the war crime charges entirely.

[QUOTE=Xionasis;40847225]That is almost entirely irrelevant. That invasion wasn't the grounds for the war crime charges entirely.[/QUOTE] He never realized that they were deporting Norwegian citizens from the country was considered a 'war crime.' [QUOTE=galenmarek;40846528]Did you seriously just try to claim that the plan to rebuild Europe ended in a massacre? Are you even serious right now?[/QUOTE] Total isolation is the best foreign policy. No foreign policy is the best foreign policy.