• [The Jimquisition] Pay To Spray: Overwatch And Microtransactions
    65 replies, posted
I don't really get this manipulative argument people are giving. Like it's literally just cosmetics and the majority of the skins look like shit anyway. The only worthwhile things are emotes and POTG intros. Like sure you don't get to be as big of a cooldude as some of the other people, but it's hardly exploitative. The only thing that is unfair about this system though is that you still get random stuff even if you buy, and you can get duplicates which barely give you any of the coins. But that's not Blizzard's new way of fucking people over, Valve set that precedent years ago.
[QUOTE=27X;50474489]Since we don't know the odds, we don't actually know if that's true or not. You'll recall people in ME3MP that to THIS DAY still haven't gotten certain guns or characters.[/QUOTE] There was a study posted on reddit that found the odds of getting a Legendary tier item in a lootbox to be about 10%, all conducted by one guy watching tons of live opened loot boxes
It doesn't affect me because I'm sure as shit not buying the boxes, but it's clearly a manipulative and shitty business model that deliberately exploits people just like any other kind of gambling, and it's really shitty in a game you already have to pay for.
Let's be clear about this... You earn a loot box each time you level up. The XP required to level up starts at 1500 XP at level 1 and increases by 1500 with each level up, diminishing until it reaches 500 XP increments at level 16. The XP required to level caps at 22000 XP when you reach level 23. A single round of Overwatch can last anywhere from 1-15 minutes. You gain 4 XP per second played during a round. Now, [I]disregarding [/I]the potential 150 XP bonus from earning a Gold Medal, 1500 XP "First Win of the Day" bonus and the 500 XP gained from winning a round... you get 250 XP just for completing a round. Now, let's use a generously short average round time of 6 minutes to estimate how fast loot boxes are earned on average. 4 XP per second over 6 minutes = 1440 XP + 250 XP for completion = 1690 total XP per round. So, even at level 23 and higher, you would still be earning loot boxes [I]at least[/I] once every 14 matches. Again, that's from rounds typically lasting as long as 10 minutes. So, one loot box every 2.5 hours. Also, don't forget that after leveling past 100, you basically "prestige," resetting your level back to level 1 and getting more stars or a fancier color around your hero portrait. This also resets the XP requirements, so you'd gain another 22 loot boxes in rapid succession as you level up to 23 again. I really don't see how these microtransactions are a problem at all. Overwatch has a progression and cosmetic system to make players feel rewarded for coming back and playing often. You're not [I]required[/I] to buy loot boxes to earn cosmetics at a regular pace. Blizzard knows there are people who are willing to pay to unlock cosmetics faster, and is willing to satisfy them because, well, that's the state of the industry at this point. You can thank Valve for that. In the end, though, it's all little more than harmless cosmetics. If it doesn't affect other players, then why is it a problem?
The worst thing about Overwatch is its entry price for what is just a really polished TF3. At least I got more than a solitary multiplayer game with the Orange Box.
as long as it isn't pay to win i could care less about microtransactions. halo 5 being a rare exception as Req Packs do not effect gamplay outside of warzone, which i never touch. [t]http://i.imgur.com/aXv1g3B.jpg[/t]
thanks for the chart
Having this lootbox shop means the game doesn't only rely on how well the game itself sells, it also relies on active gamers who use money in the game. So updating the game might boost sales regarding lootboxes and take home a lot more cash than simple game-sales would. This will probably give the game a few more years to live, because of how much money it takes home from each update, which leads to it hopefully receiving more frequent updates. Let's be honest, you usually don't get a game just because it receives an update, unless it's really big and/or you somehow got informed about it. And besides, it's purely cosmetic, it doesn't change the game, only on a visual level. The only thing I could see wrong with this would be the whole gambling aspect. Having this in a 40€ game is fine considering it'll give the game a chance to last longer and is purely visual.
[QUOTE=27X;50474489]Since we don't know the odds, we don't actually know if that's true or not. You'll recall people in ME3MP that to THIS DAY still haven't gotten certain guns or characters.[/QUOTE] Even if you don't get the skin you want, you can save up currency you get from dupes/currency drops to buy anything you want.
I personally could not care for overwatch microtransactions. I don't really like any of the skins, and it acts as a "oh cool I got a skin on the side, time to focus on the real game" because generally no one really gives a shit. But when you start to get into valve levels of microtransactions where it's advertised CONSTANTLY by fans (cosmetics becomes a game within itself) and the creators of the game (BUY THIS COMPENDIUM TO GET THESE RARE SKINS), that's when it gets incredibly irritating.
It's not affecting me, it's not making me angry, and I have very close to little incentive to cash in on Overwatch's microtransactions. That said, I don't really think there's a solid excuse for (gambling-esq) microtransactions in a paid game. You can't really disguise the fact it's an open hand waiting for more money from you over virtual goods. [B]Overwatch likely has one of the best and most fair implementations I've seen[/B], but whole system is borderline exploitation of people with poor impulse control and idle money. That's a really scummy thing to have popularized in the gaming industry.
Gambling isn't cool and we shouldn't be promoting it, but like I wouldn't tear down the entirety of CS:GO and ban it from my favorite games list for having them since it's still a pretty good game, just that one part of it is very shitty and in protest I choose not to participate in it. Like Jim said, it's not like having this in the game makes the entire game bad, it's just a really big speck that can't be ignored, nor shouldn't, but since it's so fucking far away from the actual game itself we don't need to throw the rest of the game under the bus. I wouldn't hate the game, I'd more or less hate the creators for putting in the system and the system itself.
As far as a reward you get for each time you level up, loot boxes make sense and in that context they work pretty well. The unpredictability is annoying yeah but hey its free I suppose. Now I think the fact the only thing you can buy being loot boxes is pretty silly though. Being able to buy coins seems to be a way more logical choice but you can tell they went with boxes to really milk the MCs for what they could. Still though, none of this has any effect on the gameplay itself so I'm not really bothered by it and I'm a bit confused as to why so many people are.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50475075]The worst thing about Overwatch is its entry price for what is just a really polished TF3. At least I got more than a solitary multiplayer game with the Orange Box.[/QUOTE] As someone who's been playing TF2 for 7 or so years(and still is), I can safely say it's nothing like it, whether that be for better or worse.
On my end, I'm totally fine with it because it's cosmetic only and doesn't effect the core gameplay. However, I will agree that paying actual money for randomized content is pretty shitty. It would be better if you could just buy the skins/sprays/voices outright. Because of its "gambling" aspect, I have no desire to actually buy crates because paying $5 for a low chance of getting the cosmetics I actually want just doesn't sound smart. If they sold the skins themselves, then I might actually be tempted to plop down $5 for a skin.
I believe developers (and publishers) should have a way to make money outside of game sales itself (Or whatever is the money coming from new game sold) to avoid going [URL="http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=1447957&postcount=3"]almost bankrupt[/URL], so I don't mind microtransactions as long as they don't sell DLC on top of it and microtransactions doesn't offer any gameplay changing stuff. Word 'gambling' feels weird when talking about Overwatch lootboxes, because items inside lootboxes doesn't have real life currency value unlike with CS:GO cases, where you spend ~2.25€ per key and hope item from case isn't valued below that on Steam market or third party marketplaces. I would prefer buying currency itself, so I can get exactly what I want though.
there's a hell of a lot better targets to complain about than Overwatch right now in the area of microtransactions. [editline]8th June 2016[/editline] Like seriously in Overwatch you can earn shit for free. You should just end the conversation there. As well as the Oranges being the rarest items are actually doled out pretty generously. Valve's methods for gambler motive exploitation is straight predatorial.
[QUOTE=CrossNgen;50476158]As someone who's been playing TF2 for 7 or so years(and still is), I can safely say it's nothing like it, whether that be for better or worse.[/QUOTE] I played TF2 when it came out too. Overwatch is Team Fortress with (more) abilities which causes role selection to actually matter. If you put both games, stripped of their art direction (which isn't that different anyways), in a greybox environment level and compared their sandboxes the games are not significantly different other than abilities and a few movement mechanics. They even both feature borderline identical objective gametypes as well. To say they are nothing alike is disingenuous to the facts that they are designed along the same exact game loops and design principles.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50476232]I played TF2 when it came out too. Overwatch is Team Fortress with (more) abilities which causes role selection to actually matter. [/QUOTE] They play very differently. TF2 is a 12v12 pub game with extremely tight mobility mechanics. What's important in TF2 is positioning and precise movements. With Overwatch, you have far less air control and can't be anywhere near as precise in dodging and other movement mechanics. Phara and TF2's Soldier play somewhat similarly, but there is so much more depth in how you maneuver yourself with Soldier than there is with Phara. Phara's a zeppelin to Soldier's fighter jet. In Overwatch the depth comes from class dynamics and teamwork much more substantially. You're playing with small teams, where the game tells you exactly what roles everybody needs to fill, with a progression bonus for the winning team. People are focused on winning. It's a much more competitive, team-based game. There are similarities to them. Many of the classes are similar to classes in TF2, but TF2 has a fundamentally different appeal from Overwatch. While I absolutely love Overwatch it's not some simple improvement on TF2, it's qualitatively different on a basic level. If Valve had released Overwatch with a reskin as TF3, I don't think I would have been happy with it. It doesn't have many of the elements that are most important to TF2.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50476232]I played TF2 when it came out too. Overwatch is Team Fortress with (more) abilities which causes role selection to actually matter. If you put both games, stripped of their art direction (which isn't that different anyways), in a greybox environment level and compared their sandboxes the games are not significantly different other than abilities and a few movement mechanics. They even both feature borderline identical objective gametypes as well. To say they are nothing alike is disingenuous to the facts that they are designed along the same exact game loops and design principles.[/QUOTE] "If you remove everything that makes them different, they're the same." The abilities and loadouts are the defining difference between the games, so you can't just ignore that and then say they're the same. Most characters that have similarities are still incredibly different. For example, you can compare Tracer and Scout all you want. They're the fast classes that are hard to hit. But the Scout doesn't teleport or go back in time. What he can do, is go invulnerable for a short amount of time, give himself mini-crits, stun enemies, cause them to bleed, throw milk at people, etc. Like everything else in TF2, every class is capable of so much more variety than any character in Overwatch is, because of the loadout system. Because of this, Overwatch shares far more similarities to mobas. Where coordination is absolute key, composition is important, and they are strictly bound to what they already have by default. TF2 classes are not. If we were talking about release TF2 you'd have some more credibility, but certainly not now. The only characters you can really compare with one another from both games are Pharah - Soldier, Junkrat - Demoman, Torjborn - Engineer, Widowmaker - Sniper, and Mercy - Medic. Most of these are just basic roles that every class-based shooter has anyway. Most of these are only comparable because of the weapon they use, with the exception of Torjborn who is basically a carbon copy of the Engineer in a lot of ways besides abilities. Nothing in TF2 even comes close to Genji, D.Va, Roadhog, Zenyatta, Lucio, Zarya, Mei, Bastion, Winston, or even Soldier 76.
You basically just said what I said, but longer. Notice that I replied to that poster saying it is disingenuous to say they are nothing alike, then highlighted the same exact differences you have but without elaborating. Your points are good tho. Edit this was @ mort stroodle [editline]8th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Keychain;50476401]"If you remove everything that makes them different, they're the same."[/QUOTE] This is a very poor misrepresentation of my argument, especially in the face of me noting predefined abilities as being the most important difference between the two. You are wrapped up in details with a response to a post about game loops and design principles. That is fundamentally different from talking about individual mechanics, which don't matter towards my argument. Stroodle's post about movement being vastly different is actually a good differentiation because it highlights an dissimilar point in the core game loop. Abilities are relating to interplay, a totally separate topic. Saying Overwatch shares more similarities to a moba than TF2 is downright laughable. And I was talking about release TF2, because my original post was about The Orange Box.
[QUOTE=spekter;50474357]I guess I'm in the minority in that I care more about how a game plays and what integral content I'm receiving than how my character looks. Skins are a method of dick waving and really when it comes down to it, people are gonna care more about how well you play the game than how your character looks. If you care about perceptions of others in a game, show your worth via how you play.[/QUOTE] What I see in this post is mostly your inability to sympathize with people who care about looks. EVERYONE cares more about gameplay than looks, but that doesn't mean looks aren't important. You may call it "dick waving", which is partly true, but even dick waving is a form of self expression. Self expression which we love as a species. Some people get pleasure by showing off their expensive cosmetics, but I dare say the vast majority get pleasure by wearing the cosmetics they personally like. In both cases, it's still added enjoyment for them. It's obtuse to try to claim that only the mechanics of a game matter, even if to you that'd be personally true. Also "it's their fault if they gamble" there's a reason why civilized countries have rules and limitations against gambling business. The reason being humans are really vulnerable to the temptation of chance and really irrational about it. Microtransactions are just sliding by all these regulations by being a new thing. TF2 would probably be illegal in my country if it was held up to the same standards as other gambling services.
[QUOTE=Doom14;50476005]It's not affecting me, it's not making me angry, and I have very close to little incentive to cash in on Overwatch's microtransactions. That said, I don't really think there's a solid excuse for (gambling-esq) microtransactions in a paid game. You can't really disguise the fact it's an open hand waiting for more money from you over virtual goods. [B]Overwatch likely has one of the best and most fair implementations I've seen[/B], but whole system is borderline exploitation of people with poor impulse control and idle money. That's a really scummy thing to have popularized in the gaming industry.[/QUOTE] Cosmetic Microtransactions ---> More Content for game release for free instead of being charged (Maps, Characters, Modes, ETC) ---> More Cosmetics made for new characters/things ---> repeat Unless your valve with a huge game market giving you money, this is the only viable way to make cash without pissing off or fragmenting the community.
[QUOTE=Wii60;50476724]Cosmetic Microtransactions ---> More Content for game release for free instead of being charged (Maps, Characters, Modes, ETC) ---> More Cosmetics made for new characters ---> repeat Unless your valve with a huge game market giving you money, this is the only viable way to make cash without pissing off or fragmenting the community.[/QUOTE] The main issue is the random nature of it, in my opinion. It's directly trying to take advantage of gambling addictions.
[QUOTE=elowin;50476738]The main issue is the random nature of it, in my opinion. It's directly trying to take advantage of gambling addictions.[/QUOTE] yes, games that use random should be illegal in most parts the country that bans gambling for same reasons. It's literally gambling given to children/people who dont know better but no one cares because "video games" Games like halo 5 or such let you buy all the cosmetic shit for a limited time when the update first comes out, that would be cool. there have been efforts though in the market to make the RNG shit happen less, such as Dota 2 not allowing cosmetic duplicates till you get everything in the box, but they conviently left out the rare,ultra rare, wahtever rare items out of that duplicate check.
His whole thing about Blizzard fans not liking their game being criticized kinda falls apart when you look at the Overwatch thread and see that a very large portion of posts are about discussing what's wrong with the game and how it could be improved... and also D.Va memes.
I honestly really agree with jim but also with most people. I don't think the RNG boxes should be in OW, or at least shouldn't be buyable, but to balance that also make more ways to get boxes. Like getting a box from high votes at the end of the game, or maybe POTG, or maybe for every 5 gold medals or something. However, OW probably has one of the best systems in comparison to nearly every game like it.
[QUOTE=Brt5470;50476800]I honestly really agree with jim but also with most people. I don't think the RNG boxes should be in OW, or at least shouldn't be buyable, but to balance that also make more ways to get boxes. Like getting a box from high votes at the end of the game, or maybe POTG, or maybe for every 5 gold medals or something. However, OW probably has one of the best systems in comparison to nearly every game like it.[/QUOTE] I agree, there should be ways to get more boxes. Even an extra box every 5 levels would be nice.
[QUOTE=legolover122;50474256]Microtransactions on top of a 60 dollar game are kinda shitty. I played it at my dads house and had a blast playing reaper but the whole microtransactions and crate thing just left me feeling off. Why not take the call of duty route where skins and shit are unlockable (in reference to weapon camos, fuck black ops 3 and it's hero skin crate system) and further costumes can be bought individually. But fuck why do that when impressionable 13 year olds who have access to their piggy bank can play and dump even more money into your game.[/QUOTE] It's not a 60 dollar game anyway, plus, you can earn literally almost everything except special order skins such as the pre-order or Origins edition skins. You don't have to waste any money at all. You're not forced to either, it's just a pre-existing option that people can do if they wish to get some skin or animation that they really want.
[QUOTE=MisterLANCE;50474127]overwatch has the best microtransactions possible. You don't need anything you can buy, you can also earn the things you want without paying. I'm tempted to buy some boxes just because blizzard should be commended for such a level headed system.[/QUOTE] You don't earn anything. It would be nice to have some skins/sprays/player icons that you DO actually earn in addition to what we have now. Like a skin for a thousand headshots with Hanzo, or 1000 enemies frozen with Mei. Some actual flare. Right now it's just all RNG.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.