Can you ban for ideology? - General

[QUOTE=Miricx;40188359]Nazism would be good for the spoiled kids to get some manners. That's just my opinion..[/QUOTE] i would love to feel hitler's gentle touch...

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40187902] Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me"[/I] - Martin Niemöller[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;hM2cSHNpQcY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM2cSHNpQcY[/video]

if you read tralls rc thread youd find it pretty obvious that the guy was a troll and he was basically masturbating to how mad everyone got about him

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40187603]if nazism is bannable then so too should be communism communism caused an order of magnitude more deaths[/QUOTE] If people were to be banned for espousing erroneous ideologies this forum would have a lot less members (though I have a feeling that I'd be among those cast away). Communism and Nazism are both horrible but the invidiousness of the latter is readily apparent, especially on a medium like an internet forum, because its espousal is usually in the form of hate speech, whereas the formers' is usually limited to nebulous rhetoric about 'installing a dictatorship of the proletariat' and all that jazz (Not saying I agree with this double-standard but I understand why people would think like this!!)

[QUOTE=God's Pimp Hand;40188630]If people were to be banned for espousing erroneous ideologies this forum would have a lot less members (though I have a feeling that I'd be among those cast away). [/QUOTE] If facepunch banned everybody with less than common ideologies we'd have nobody interesting left. No Libertarians, no radical feminists, no anarcho-communists.. all the drama and debates would die off. It would be no fun.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40187902]No he didn't. He killed hundreds of thousands of germans who didn't fit into his warped ideal of what a german actually was. [I]"First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me"[/I] - Martin Niemöller[/QUOTE] Well, look at it this way... Hitler had a quite different opinion on what a "german" was than you.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40187907]all those jews and gays and other people he killed were germans[/QUOTE] I figured his warped view of what a German was kind of went without saying, but looking at the response to my post maybe I should have elaborated on it oh well, I'm sure you guys get what I mean now anyway, it wasn't a post intended to be picked apart, I am most definitely aware of the history of WWII and Hitler's philosophies [QUOTE=Zeke129;40188084]I'm addressing the Nazi's argument that "Hitler loved Germany and its people" so I'm obviously only going to refer to all the Germans he massacred[/QUOTE] point is he didn't see them as german but he still did kill them and they still were german citizens for the most part so yep we're all good

Capitalism cause a lot of death too, all capitalists should be banned.

[QUOTE=Iago;40189526]Capitalism cause a lot of death too, all capitalists should be banned.[/QUOTE] Since when?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40189587]Since when?[/QUOTE] You're crazy if you don't think so, heres a few examples: US intrevention of south america - 6 million dead Invasion of phillipines- 650k dead plus more NATIVE AMERICAN GENOCIDE- 95 million dead Slave trade- 150 million and this is only a few from the US, britain and spain is just as guilty.

knock 'em dead sobotnik

[QUOTE=Iago;40189687]You're crazy if you don't think so, heres a few examples: US intrevention of south america - 6 million dead Invasion of phillipines- 650k dead plus more NATIVE AMERICAN GENOCIDE- 95 million dead Slave trade- 150 million and this is only a few from the US, britain and spain is just as guilty.[/QUOTE] I'm not too sure how the intervention in South America is a direct cause/effect of capitalism. Would it be different if America ran on an agrarian economy, or was communist? Same as above. The Indian genocide. Firstly, I don't think there was even 95 million humans in the whole of the Americas in the year 1492. Secondly, the vast majority of them died from disease, climatic changes, inter-tribal warfare, decline in food production, and native plants and animals being supplanted by foreign species. Plus the Europeans and Indians kept making alliances with and against each other all the time. It was possible for Spanish and Indians to fight the nearby tribe who supported the British. The actual genocide didn't begin in earnest til the 19th century, when the Americans begin to spread west and actively remove people from their lands (by which stage, the vast majority of them were already dead). Finally, where the fuck has this 150 million figure for the slave trade come from? At the very most, 12 million slaves ever made it to America. Also the last two preceded the development of capitalism in the most part. Capitalism only developed in the 18th century with modern economics after the price controls of the Middle ages fell apart. Fact is, capitalism has been largely responsible for the increase in living standards we see today.

that guy was a cunt but a perma's a bit harsh.

And in an additional note, the 150 million figure is complete bullshit because I checked everywhere and even the places which would exaggerate the figures the most, from a book called "American Genocide" it gives the figure between 30 to 60 million. No idea where the figure came from. If that many people died, then (adding in the Indian genocide), you are saying that just under 250 million people died. That's such a stupid fucking figure it blows my mind. If that was the case, we would have seen this reflected in population estimates and censuses from about 1500 til 1900 (when the genocides and slavery ended).

Anyone who is gold go look at his RC thread and tell me the ban wasn't justified

This doesnt count as leaking, I've seen starpluck do it, but here you go blues. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xU6DeCw.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40188083]Leninist ideology literally calls for a dictatorship to be established. Stalin was just carrying out the logical conclusion of Lenins handiwork.[/QUOTE] Leninism calls for dictatorship of the proletariat- majority rule. The idea that Leninism calls for a oligarchical dictatorship is a fundamental misunderstanding. Marxist-Leninism, does, however, and in practice Lenin deviated from his own theories "because of the necessities of the time" or something. Still an ass. Also, I was the one who more or less outed that guy as a Nazi, adding the big red "Nazi Sympathizer" title. I'm the guy he's thanking sarcastically in his RC post there. I didn't expect him to get banned, merely shunned. I think it sets a bad precedent to ban someone for the ideological leanings. I mean, as a radical leftist myself, I wouldn't want to be banned for that.

jesus fuckign christ there weren't even 150 million in west africa where the shitting fuck are you getting these figures

Unban him, I want someone morally detestable to hate

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40190411]jesus fuckign christ there weren't even 150 million in west africa where the shitting fuck are you getting these figures[/QUOTE] Most of the slave trade to the America's happened in South America anyway and they were way worse when it came to treating slaves. They only lived 20 years on average and were worked to death. American slaves actually lived to about their 30's which was the average age for whites. American slavery was still pretty brutal. 130 Million slaves is a odd number that can't possibly be true. The modern population of West Africa is 200 million [url]http://library.thinkquest.org/16645/the_people/pop_west.shtml[/url] The amount of people who decended from African slaves in the America's is like 200 million and this is because of their population explosion.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;40191082]Most of the slave trade to the America's happened in South America anyway and they were way worse when it came to treating slaves. They only lived 20 years on average and were worked to death. American slaves actually lived to about their 30's which was the average age for whites.[/quote] Source? I don't believe that whites and blacks had the same lifespans. [quote]American slavery was still pretty brutal. 130 Million slaves is a odd number that can't possibly be true. The modern population of West Africa is 200 million [url]http://library.thinkquest.org/16645/the_people/pop_west.shtml[/url][/quote] That's the population today. The population of the /whole/ of africa did not reach 150 million until the 20th century. It mostly hovered between 114 to 106 million from 1600 to 1850 [quote]The amount of people who decended from African slaves in the America's is like 200 million and this is because of their population explosion.[/QUOTE] I thought it was around 40 million?

This is what the RC is for.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40187801]Communism killed millions through economic failures and political suppression, not the ideology itself preached, or implied killing millions.[/QUOTE] Marx and Engels wrote that in order for the workers revolution to achieve communism, the "volkerabfalle", literally "racial trash", had to be wiped out. Basically, they said "primitive" peoples such as south slavs, basques, bretons, scottish highlanders were two steps behind in the historical struggle because they had not yet achieved capitalism and were therefore nowhere near the stage of being revolutionary, so they were considered peasantry, not workers. This is why Stalin starved off 7m Ukrainians and Cossacks in 1933 and moved millions of Russians into the Baltic "The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions of life, must give way... They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust."

The poor nazi :( Why do you care? He literally said he was a nazi, this isn't a free audience. He can have his free nazi hate speech elsewhere, we do not want to listen to what nazis have to say. Mods can ban for whatever reason they want, if Garry has a problem with it they will probably discuss it in the mod forum and it will be dealt with. I highly doubt Garry cares that someone banned a nazi for being a nazi.

[QUOTE=Don Ochs;40188971]Well, look at it this way... Hitler had a quite different opinion on what a "german" was than you.[/QUOTE] That is a really stupid thing to say. My idea what a german was - well exactly that, a german. Not some party supporting race pure lunatic.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40192438]That is a really stupid thing to say. My idea what a german was - well exactly that, a german. Not some party supporting race pure lunatic.[/QUOTE] Hitler's ideal German was an Aryan, hence anyone who wasn't an Aryan was considered by him not to be a "real" German, hence they ended up dead. He pretty much did have a different view on what a German was.

[QUOTE=Don Ochs;40188971]Well, look at it this way... Hitler had a quite different opinion on what a "german" was than you.[/QUOTE] I don't really see how you can argue with this, it's true.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40192438]That is a really stupid thing to say. My idea what a german was - well exactly that, a german. Not some party supporting race pure lunatic.[/QUOTE] How was that a stupid thing to say? I simply brought attention to the fact that Hitler's views on what a german is greatly differs from what we think a german is. See things from different perspectives and maybe you'll get somewhere, instead of assuming what [I]you think[/I] is exactly how the world is. I agree with you, someone who speaks german and lives in germany - or someone with a german citizenship is a german in my opinion. In Hitler's opinion those were not valid reasons, you needed a pure ancestry, you had to be ethnically german.

[QUOTE=Don Ochs;40192882]How was that a stupid thing to say? I simply brought attention to the fact that Hitler's views on what a german is greatly differs from what we think a german is. See things from different perspectives and maybe you'll get somewhere, instead of assuming what [I]you think[/I] is exactly how the world is. I agree with you, someone who speaks german and lives in germany - or someone with a german citizenship is a german in my opinion. In Hitler's opinion those were not valid reasons, you needed a pure ancestry, you had to be ethnically german.[/QUOTE] Exactly. We probably still have really strange values on a whole lot of stuff that people in the future will look back at and think they're strange. It's simply not as easy to know you really have the "correct" values that people may think.

He never even posted any hate speech, he admire hitler accomplishments. That's it, not even jew hating. Also sobotnik I had a bad source but capitalism still killed loads of people directly and indirectly.