Can you ban for ideology? - General

[QUOTE=Iago;40193352]He never even posted any hate speech, he admire hitler accomplishments. That's it, not even jew hating. Also sobotnik I had a bad source but capitalism still killed loads of people directly and indirectly.[/QUOTE] Is this attributing deaths to it from countries who also were supposedly "capitalist". Ironically, capitalism was what helped make the slave trade economically pointless in the long run, which contributed towards its decline in the New World.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40193394]Is this attributing deaths to it from countries who also were supposedly "capitalist". Ironically, capitalism was what helped make the slave trade economically pointless in the long run, which contributed towards its decline in the New World.[/QUOTE] That doesn't change the fact lots of people died. Sure capitalism is better then communism and such but my main point is that the guy shouldn't be banned for his ideology. We can teach him how to love people, not hate. He'll learn

[QUOTE=Iago;40193609]That doesn't change the fact lots of people died. Sure capitalism is better then communism and such but my main point is that the guy shouldn't be banned for his ideology. We can teach him how to love people, not hate. He'll learn[/QUOTE] Yeah, convert him to communism is that meme still banable?

[QUOTE=Don Ochs;40193624]Yeah, convert him to communism is that meme still banable?[/QUOTE] Facepunch is more liberal then any other place I know. Also who said i wanted to convert him to communism?

[QUOTE=Lua Laputa;40191943]Marx and Engels wrote that in order for the workers revolution to achieve communism, the "volkerabfalle", literally "racial trash"[/QUOTE] volk-er abfalle volk being people, race, or nation; -er making it a the plural noun; and abfalle being refuse in its subordinate whatever peoples refuse where did you get this crazy shit from lol

[QUOTE=Iago;40193658]Facepunch is more liberal then any other place I know. Also who said i wanted to convert him to communism?[/QUOTE] Nobody it's just a thing that went around when someone posted a thread converting a bug to communism or something everyone went around saying "convert x to communism". [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] Before you were born on facepunch.

[QUOTE=Iago;40193609]That doesn't change the fact lots of people died. Sure capitalism is better then communism and such but my main point is that the guy shouldn't be banned for his ideology. We can teach him how to love people, not hate. He'll learn[/QUOTE] Yes a lot of people died, but not in the name of "capitalism". People didn't go into other countries during the 1600s and go "WE NEED TO KILL EVERYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH CAPITALISM". Firstly because mercantilism was the main economic theory at the time, and secondly, because most people were more interested by things like spreading the word of god, exploring, promoting national interest, or making mad dosh. More people died because of people doing "gods work" than capitalism did. Also I want to know the source of the 150 million dead from slavery.

I think you're forgetting what capitalism is, saying the US never cause deaths for money is pretty ignorant. Hell look at gangsters and gangbangers, everything they do is driven by money.

[QUOTE=Iago;40193948]I think you're forgetting what capitalism is, saying the US never cause deaths for money is pretty ignorant.[/QUOTE] Capitalism didn't really start existing until the restrictive trade practices left over from Medieval Europe died out in the 18th century. Economic theories and concept =/= to American Imperialism. Also the theory is attempting to understand reality and to suggest ideas which can help towards economic development. Not too fond of Adam Smith or David Ricardo are you mate?

[QUOTE=thisispain;40193662]volk-er abfalle volk being people, race, or nation; -er making it a the plural noun; and abfalle being refuse in its subordinate whatever peoples refuse where did you get this crazy shit from lol[/QUOTE] "refuse" can be used to mean trash [quote]ref·use /riˈfyo͞oz/ Verb Indicate or show that one is not willing to do something. [B]Noun Matter thrown away or rejected as worthless; trash.[/B] Synonyms verb. decline - deny - reject - repudiate - disallow - repulse noun. trash - garbage - rubbish - waste - litter - offal[/quote] [url=http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Qhc-AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=volkerabfalle&source=bl&ots=6nOWAxfyPX&sig=irXqqYSzQxCS7joXpDUvmDoGTbI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_n9hUZ--G6XQ0QXl7YDoBQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=volkerabfalle&f=false]Here's his source:[/url] [quote]Engels' reference to his work "in a few special fields" is of obvious applicability to his military writings, some of which dealt with particular developments examined in the preceding chapters. While Marx, on one occasion at least, expressed some misgiving to his friend that it seemed "that you are a little too much influenced by the military aspect of things", he usually deferred to "General" Engels' expertise in that field. Engels' connection with military matters was not, however, always confined to the realms of mere analysis. He had, indeed, taken part in some of the military engagements which had accompanied the revolutionary upheavals in his homeland in 1848-9. It was during that period, moreover, that he emerged as "the Marx party's" specialist on foreign affairs, an area of responsibility in which, in that "springtime of nations", national movements loomed large. We have already seen how his and Marx's evaluations of particular movements were largely influenced by considerations of the degree to which they were likely either to advance or to impede the progress of the socialist revolution. Thus peoples whose aspirations towards nationhood were deemed likely to obstruct the cause of socialism were dismissed by Engels as "ethnic trash" ([I]Völkerabfalle[/I]) or, in more Hegelian terms, "historyless peoples". Marx, for his part, did not dissociate himself from Engels' diatribes on this subject, but chose to adopt somewhat less abusive terminology when he referred to "revolutionary" and "counterrevolutionary" nations or, in the words of [I]The Communist Manifesto[/I] (who whose final composition Marx was largely responsible), "barbarian" and "civilized" ones.[/quote]

[QUOTE=thisispain;40193662]volk-er abfalle volk being people, race, or nation; -er making it a the plural noun; and abfalle being refuse in its subordinate whatever peoples refuse where did you get this crazy shit from lol[/QUOTE] Straight from Engels, see above post

My brother made a holocaust revisionist thread and got perma banned for it. He isn't a Nazi nor did he post anything discriminatory in the thread, he isn't a anti-seminite. Some things just don't fly here I suppose.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40188015]It's not like political purges and trying to "re-educate" enemies of the state by throwing them in prison camps or suppressing scientific inquiry or trying to wipe out entire ethnic groups are alien concepts to the Soviet Union, China, Cuba or many other Communist failures.[/QUOTE] by this logic anyone who supports the us government should also be banned. [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] actually if we want to follow this logic, all statists should be banned and only pacifist anarchists should remain on the board. [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] so...yay for me?

[QUOTE=Don Ochs;40192882]How was that a stupid thing to say? I simply brought attention to the fact that Hitler's views on what a german is greatly differs from what we think a german is. See things from different perspectives and maybe you'll get somewhere, instead of assuming what [I]you think[/I] is exactly how the world is. I agree with you, someone who speaks german and lives in germany - or someone with a german citizenship is a german in my opinion. In Hitler's opinion those were not valid reasons, you needed a pure ancestry, you had to be ethnically german.[/QUOTE] Hitler believed a lot of crazy shit, it doesn't make it legitimate, or even debatable as an abstract concept. The he murdered empirically german citizens as non-german untermench. Hitler - the Great Philosopher: Wat ist german??

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40197356]by this logic anyone who supports the us government should also be banned. [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] actually if we want to follow this logic, all statists should be banned and only pacifist anarchists should remain on the board. [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] so...yay for me?[/QUOTE] Except there's a big difference between a country like North America and North Korea in terms of how the people are treated. Especially given that in one of them, they don't lock up about half of the country in prison camps or the army.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40197628]Except there's a big difference between a country like North America and North Korea in terms of how the people are treated. Especially given that in one of them, they don't lock up about half of the country in prison camps or the army.[/QUOTE] there was a big difference between the ussr and nazi germany there was a big difference between the holocaust and the genocide of native americans there was a big difference between american cold-war imperialism and japanese imperialism during ww2. idk what ur point is. if you want to equate one with another we might as well equate all of them. [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] if you think oppression is wrong, then every statist ideology is inherently wrong. parliamentary democracy is oppressive, as is fascism. the difference is in degrees.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40197889]there was a big difference between the ussr and nazi germany there was a big difference between the holocaust and the genocide of native americans there was a big difference between american cold-war imperialism and japanese imperialism during ww2. idk what ur point is. if you want to equate one with another we might as well equate all of them. [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] if you think oppression is wrong, then every statist ideology is inherently wrong. parliamentary democracy is oppressive, as is fascism. the difference is in degrees.[/QUOTE] Except the USSR was pretty much the same as Nazi Germany. Kill minorities, lock up political dissidents in camps, failed and extravagant economic policies, censorship , etc.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40197982]Except the USSR was pretty much the same as Nazi Germany. Kill minorities, lock up political dissidents in camps, failed and extravagant economic policies, censorship , etc.[/QUOTE] ok then nazi germany was the same as the usa kill minorities, lock up political dissidents(and minorities), failed and extravagant economic policies, censorship, et.c [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Peltier[/url]

He didn't even said anything racist. The most he said was that Hitler loved germany. It wasn't like he said he support the holocaust.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40198014]ok then nazi germany was the same as the usa kill minorities, lock up political dissidents(and minorities), failed and extravagant economic policies, censorship, et.c [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Peltier[/url][/QUOTE] Except those weren't on such a systematic scale as the USSR. And the USA had relatively more political and economic freedoms. The USSR and Nazi Germany were pretty much the same in terms of lack of political/economic freedoms.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40198073]Except those weren't on such a systematic scale as the USSR. And the USA had relatively more political and economic freedoms. The USSR and Nazi Germany were pretty much the same in terms of lack of political/economic freedoms.[/QUOTE] sources?

[QUOTE=Iago;40198047]He didn't even said anything racist. The most he said was that Hitler loved germany. It wasn't like he said he support the holocaust.[/QUOTE] Can I have the source on the 150 million dead from slave trade figure yet? [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;40198081]sources?[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics[/url] [quote]In organizing their eugenics program the Nazis were inspired by the United States' programs of forced sterilization, especially on the eugenics laws that had been enacted in California.[15] The Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring, proclaimed on July 14, 1933, required physicians to register every case of hereditary illness known to them, except in women over 45 years of age.[16] Physicians could be fined for failing to comply. In 1934, the first year of the Law's operation, nearly 4,000 people appealed against the decisions of sterilization authorities. A total of 3,559 of the appeals failed. By the end of the Nazi regime, over 200 Hereditary Health Courts (Erbgesundheitsgerichte) were created, and under their rulings over 400,000 people were sterilized against their will.[17][/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism[/url] [quote]From 1934 to 1940, under Lysenko's admonitions and with Stalin's approval, many geneticists were executed (including Isaak Agol, Solomon Levit, Grigorii Levitskii, Georgii Karpechenko and Georgii Nadson) or sent to labor camps. The famous Soviet geneticist Nikolai Vavilov was arrested in 1940 and died in prison in 1943.[9] Genetics was stigmatized as a 'bourgeois science' or 'fascist science' (because fascists — particularly the Nazis in Germany — embraced genetics and attempted to use it to justify their theories on eugenics and the master race, which culminated in Action T4). In 1948, genetics was officially declared "a bourgeois pseudoscience";[10] all geneticists were fired from their jobs (some were also arrested), and all genetic research was discontinued. Nikita Khrushchev, who claimed to be an expert in agricultural science, also valued Lysenko as a great scientist, and the taboo on genetics continued (but all geneticists were released or rehabilitated posthumously). The ban was only waived in the mid-1960s. Thus, Lysenkoism caused serious, long-term harm to Soviet knowledge of biology. It represented a serious failure of the early Soviet leadership to find real solutions to agricultural problems, throwing their support behind a charlatan at the expense of many human lives.[/quote] Both were literally pseudoscience based on the idea that mainstream biology was wrong, and that humans could be purified through artificial selection, or in the Soviet case by retraining them because humans were a blank slate that would be made to know only Soviet propaganda. In both cases, it miserably failed and a lot of people died. Opponents to it were killed.

so you are saying that a policy based on genetics and a policy based in opposition to genetics are the same? well fuck. [editline]7th April 2013[/editline] would you also call people who use those healing crystals to be on the same level as nazi eugenics "doctors" because both are pseudoscience that can lead to people dying?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40198283]so you are saying that a policy based on genetics and a policy based in opposition to genetics are the same? well fuck.[/QUOTE] Well yeah, they both ignored scientific findings, created a bullshit alternative theory, killed anybody who disagreed, and then they wondered why things were falling to shit.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40198330]Well yeah, they both ignored scientific findings, created a bullshit alternative theory, killed anybody who disagreed, and then they wondered why things were falling to shit.[/QUOTE] that doesn't make the degrees of suffering caused, or even the principles behind the idea equatable. again, i can use this argument to say that social darwinists are as bad as nazis. or i can say that anyone who supports israel also supported the holocaust. it's fucking ridiculous. you can't simply say everything is the same because they share some similarities. it's lazy as shit and intellectually dishonest.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40198369]that doesn't make the degrees of suffering caused, or even the principles behind the idea equatable. again, i can use this argument to say that social darwinists are as bad as nazis. or i can say that anyone who supports israel also supported the holocaust. it's fucking ridiculous. you can't simply say everything is the same because they share some similarities. it's lazy as shit and intellectually dishonest.[/QUOTE] Except the scale on which the USSR and Nazi Germany committed atrocities were the same. They were by roughly just as insane dictators for some insane ideologies.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40198455]Except the scale on which the USSR and Nazi Germany committed atrocities were the same. They were by roughly just as insane dictators for some insane ideologies.[/QUOTE] sources? this is the second time i'v asked

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40198517]sources? this is the second time i'v asked[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism#Soviet_repressions[/url]

I prefer to measure my terrible ideologies in total deliberate deaths divided by years in power :downs:

[url]http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?114760-The-Death-Tolls-of-Socialism-And-Capitalism[/url] I googled "deaths capitalism caused" and pressed im feeling lucky. I relized I picked a pretty shit source.