Pirating and other illegal free options through the internet - General

Let's say I have a Pizza that has infinite Slices. Whenever you take one, Another one instantly appears in the place it was in. Now, Say you take one and I punch you in the face because I could have sold that piece of pizza to someone even though I lose nothing from just letting people take them. You draw your own conclusions from this.

I only torrent games that have already been out for over 3 years. But if there is a new game coming out, I'll buy it.

[QUOTE=NotAlways;32417091]Let's say I have a Pizza that has infinite Slices. Whenever you take one, Another one instantly appears in the place it was in. Now, Say you take one and I punch you in the face because I could have sold that piece of pizza to someone even though I lose nothing from just letting people take them. You draw your own conclusions from this.[/QUOTE] I conclude that I havn't eaten dinner yet and pizza sounds pretty good. But honestly pirace =/= stealing. It's like letting a friend borrow a xbox game for a week, HE DIDN'T BUY THE GAME IT MUST BE STEALING! same logic.

[QUOTE=NotAlways;32417091]Let's say I have a Pizza that has infinite Slices. Whenever you take one, Another one instantly appears in the place it was in. Now, Say you take one and I punch you in the face because I could have sold that piece of pizza to someone even though I lose nothing from just letting people take them. You draw your own conclusions from this.[/QUOTE] But let's say you spent millions of dollars to make the pizza, and sell it by the slice in order to turn a profit. But instead people just take it. [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=The one that is;32417881]I conclude that I havn't eaten dinner yet and pizza sounds pretty good. But honestly pirace =/= stealing. It's like letting a friend borrow a xbox game for a week, HE DIDN'T BUY THE GAME IT MUST BE STEALING! same logic.[/QUOTE] No it's not. It's like if you ran a football stadium and people snuck into a game. They're stealing a service.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;32410438]if the sale is made what is the issue? or do i have a moral obligation to absolutely hate a game but buy it anyway? i pirated Duke Nukem Forever and it was absolutely atrocious, and as a result i didn't buy it. is it really fair to me, the consumer, that i should be tricked into buying a terrible product based solely on hype?[/QUOTE] You knew it was a terrible product and you didn't have to buy it or play it. You may feel you were tricked but everything was trying to help you, you were just blind to it. It is always a risk buying something that it may not be as you expect but to ignore all warnings and common sense and then expect it to be undone is unreasonable.

[QUOTE=fenwick;32417976]But let's say you spent millions of dollars to make the pizza, and sell it by the slice in order to turn a profit. But instead people just take it. [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] No it's not. It's like if you ran a football stadium and people snuck into a game. They're stealing a service.[/QUOTE] BUT THEY WEREN'T GOING TO PAY FOR IT ANYWAY. And honestly if you sell pizza by the slice and it's infinite, you can afford to let a few slices go, in the end people always need to eat more and thus will by more slices.

[QUOTE=The one that is;32419010]BUT THEY WEREN'T GOING TO PAY FOR IT ANYWAY.[/QUOTE] Then they don't deserve it. Why does anyone deserve to pay when pirates get it for free? The pirates are essentially leeching off of those who pay for the game.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;32412176]that's because i have an actual argument to defend myself you just pirate "eh because i can lolxD" i pirate essentially for game demos in the end i still support developers because i'm not an edgy child[/QUOTE] That's like saying I steal because I'm poor. Its a valid reason, but you still broke the law.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;32376989]Oh, and please, RIAA, justify how copying a song causes $100,000 in damages.[/QUOTE] Everyone says that the fine for piracy should not exceed the price of the song. If they [I]really[/I] want to be obnoxious and infuriatingly stupid they say "the price of the song [I]at the most[/I]". What shit is that? That is no deterrent. Imagine if you went into a jewelry store knowing that a diamond ring cost $2500 bucks, and if you stole it you would keep it and only be forced to pay for it. What deterrent is there, then, to prevent you from at least trying to steal it?

[QUOTE=Devodiere;32418319]You knew it was a terrible product and you didn't have to buy it or play it. You may feel you were tricked but everything was trying to help you, you were just blind to it. It is always a risk buying something that it may not be as you expect but to ignore all warnings and common sense and then expect it to be undone is unreasonable.[/QUOTE]You somehow magically knew that product was a bad product because you're omnipotent, and you totally shouldn't have bought it. You don't make mistakes like us normal humans do! Sorry bro, your argument is fallacious and even a bit dumb. People try on clothes, test drive cars, read the first chapter of a book at the book store, read a few pages out of magazines at the convenience store, and many stores will give food samples if it is possible to do so. They encourage it because IT FUCKING SELLS SHIT. What makes games/movies/music different is that we can try the product on our terms, should we wish to. Why wouldn't you do that? Some artists let their music hit torrent sites on their own. They let people listen to it and have said their sales went up quite a bit. Now game developers are doing the same, sometimes releasing modified but functional versions, and are also saying this is working for them. It doesn't make sense to me that you can sit there saying "YOU KNEW IT WAS A TERRIBLE PRODUCT" as if that is always immediately obvious in every way. Do you look at a pair of pants, know right away that it fits, then pay and leave just to later find out the fucker rides up your crotch? No, because that would be a retarded waste of time and money. But even that's not a perfect analogy: ever tried to return a PC game? YOU CAN'T. ONCE YOU SPEND THAT MONEY, IT'S GONE. How many people saved $50 not buying Spore because they got to try it out first? What about Duke Nukem Forever? How about the GTA4 and Saints Row 2 ports, both of which had horrifyingly bad performance on PC that never got fixed? I'm not going to throw my money around with no hope of ever getting it back so you can feel like some fake morality is being held up... these companies are not averse to using hype, your friends (word of mouth), and even your own psychology against you to make you make a purchase, whether it's good or bad. I have no intention of being an advertising slave so I'm going to make my mind up for myself. It's my money, I want to make sure I spend it right.

If buying was as easy as pirating, I think I would buy more often.

[QUOTE=Mooe94;32422929]If buying was as easy as pirating, I think I would buy more often.[/QUOTE]Just so we can understand this statement better (and possibly help you), what is making buying particularly difficult for you?

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;32422985]Just so we can understand this statement better (and possibly help you), what is making buying particularly difficult for you?[/QUOTE] When pirating, I can just login, select what I want and download it in whatever quality I want. I don't use iTunes because I find it extremely tedious, and it seems to be only easy way to buy music today. I guess it makes it tedious to buy things when you have to enter credit card information, billing address, etc, takes time and I want to listen to the music NOW. I sound like brat but that is how it is.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;32422905]You somehow magically knew that product was a bad product because you're omnipotent, and you totally shouldn't have bought it. You don't make mistakes like us normal humans do! Sorry bro, your argument is fallacious and even a bit dumb. People try on clothes, test drive cars, read the first chapter of a book at the book store, read a few pages out of magazines at the convenience store, and many stores will give food samples if it is possible to do so. They encourage it because IT FUCKING SELLS SHIT. What makes games/movies/music different is that we can try the product on our terms, should we wish to. Why wouldn't you do that? Some artists let their music hit torrent sites on their own. They let people listen to it and have said their sales went up quite a bit. Now game developers are doing the same, sometimes releasing modified but functional versions, and are also saying this is working for them. It doesn't make sense to me that you can sit there saying "YOU KNEW IT WAS A TERRIBLE PRODUCT" as if that is always immediately obvious in every way. Do you look at a pair of pants, know right away that it fits, then pay and leave just to later find out the fucker rides up your crotch? No, because that would be a retarded waste of time and money. But even that's not a perfect analogy: ever tried to return a PC game? YOU CAN'T. ONCE YOU SPEND THAT MONEY, IT'S GONE. How many people saved $50 not buying Spore because they got to try it out first? What about Duke Nukem Forever? How about the GTA4 and Saints Row 2 ports, both of which had horrifyingly bad performance on PC that never got fixed? I'm not going to throw my money around with no hope of ever getting it back so you can feel like some fake morality is being held up... these companies are not averse to using hype, your friends (word of mouth), and even your own psychology against you to make you make a purchase, whether it's good or bad. I have no intention of being an advertising slave so I'm going to make my mind up for myself. It's my money, I want to make sure I spend it right.[/QUOTE] They do give you that; demos, reviews, media and public feedback. You don't walk into it blind and they do give you the opportunity to get some information before you commit. You may make mistakes but as I said, it's a fucking risk with buying everything and the least you can do is be properly informed before you claim you were ripped off. You can return a car or some clothes, you can't spew the food you just ate back up or remove the experience of playing a game from your brain so they're not really the same. If you buy everything that looks good then you are impulse buying and really shouldn't be blaming other people for you not even trying to protect yourself from poor investments. Hype and other tricks might work on some people but if you are so worried about it, don't fall for stupid tricks, it's not that hard. [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Mooe94;32423000]When pirating, I can just login, select what I want and download it in whatever quality I want. I don't use iTunes because I find it extremely tedious, and it seems to be only easy way to buy music today. I guess it makes it tedious to buy things when you have to enter credit card information, billing address, etc, takes time and I want to listen to the music NOW. I sound like brat but that is how it is.[/QUOTE] Personally Steam makes shit a lot easier than stuffing around with cracks and massive errors you have no support for. An advent in the technology but still, not really much of an excuse.

My entire argument is submitted in video form, it put's my arguments i have been standing by for a long time in a format that won't cause me to waste my night writing them out. Here it is on Peeny arcade, because Extra Credits and the escapist had a huge row over something and they left. [url]http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/piracy[/url]

[QUOTE=The Aussie;32423106]My entire argument is submitted in video form, it put's my arguments i have been standing by for a long time in a format that won't cause me to waste my night writing them out. Here it is on Peeny arcade, because Extra Credits and the escapist had a huge row over something and they left. [url]http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/piracy[/url][/QUOTE] It's definitely one of the better arguments around and I agree with most of it. All of this does depend on wanting to to the moral thing. You're certainly allowed to pirate but it's not really helping to pretend you aren't doing something wrong. It's a vice and even if you aren't meant to do it, plenty of people do and it's not really that looked down upon as other things.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;32423011]They do give you that; demos, reviews, media and public feedback. You don't walk into it blind and they do give you the opportunity to get some information before you commit. You may make mistakes but as I said, it's a fucking risk with buying everything and the least you can do is be properly informed before you claim you were ripped off. You can return a car or some clothes, you can't spew the food you just ate back up or remove the experience of playing a game from your brain so they're not really the same. If you buy everything that looks good then you are impulse buying and really shouldn't be blaming other people for you not even trying to protect yourself from poor investments. Hype and other tricks might work on some people but if you are so worried about it, don't fall for stupid tricks, it's not that hard.[/QUOTE] Reviews can be bought and are entirely subject to the reviewers opinion. Media is controlled by the developer. Public feedback is generally worthless and retarded. And demos... yes, let's showcase an incomplete product, usually with the very best gameplay moments, and call that an "accurate" demonstration of the product. Sort of like watching a movie trailer and thinking that is an accurate way to judge the movie. No, your argument is still pretty awful really. You can't judge game mechanics until you use them in the game's normal context, and no amount of mincing words will change that. A lot of developers are blaming piracy for lost profit, but I'd say it has a lot more to do with lazy developers making shit games or terrible ports. Besides, as much as I've listed games that were considered failures on the PC, there are also other games I was not sure of but ended up buying because I downloaded them, and one of those is Mass Effect. If I hadn't downloaded it to try it out, I never would have bought the game, its sequel, or any of the DLC. Piracy is not as black and white as you derps seem to think it is, and as has been said a hundred times here already, many developers and artists are now making it work for them. Not only that, but people have posted numbers in this thread that clearly you guys didn't read, because piracy is a LOT lower than people think it is. [QUOTE=Devodiere;32423199]It's definitely one of the better arguments around and I agree with most of it. All of this does depend on wanting to to the moral thing. You're certainly allowed to pirate but it's not really helping to pretend you aren't doing something wrong. It's a vice and even if you aren't meant to do it, plenty of people do and it's not really that looked down upon as other things.[/QUOTE]Stop making this into a moral debate. The only people who are really doing anything immoral are those who enjoy a product without paying for it. It's not like anyone here disagrees with that. What ends up getting debated a lot is how bad the effects of piracy really are, and I think developers (and especially publishers) seriously overstate the damage done. People just get sick of hearing "WOE ME PIRATES STOLE MAH MONEYZ" when a game is shit and no one bought it.

I don't give a fuck how people make it work or how big it is, all I am concerned with is is it morally justifiable to pirate it. It may be biased but you know how to differentiate between bullshit and reality. If that's not enough and you want an absolute guarantee that you will enjoy it then don't buy anything because everything is a risk, every single purchase from clothes to food to movies has a good chance of being absolute shit, but you still risk it if you think the odds are good. Complete aversion to any risk is just being a picky bitch. I don't care about your anecdotal evidence or developers making use of it to further the game, that's their option. People who do not follow this though are not obliged to guarantee to you that it will be good when your tastes are as varied as everyone and you could very well hate the game everyone else loves.

I believe Nelson put it the best. "Shoplifting is a victimless crime. Like punching someone in the dark."

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;32423640]Stop making this into a moral debate. The only people who are really doing anything immoral are those who enjoy a product without paying for it. It's not like anyone here disagrees with that. What ends up getting debated a lot is how bad the effects of piracy really are, and I think developers (and especially publishers) seriously overstate the damage done. People just get sick of hearing "WOE ME PIRATES STOLE MAH MONEYZ" when a game is shit and no one bought it.[/QUOTE] It is moral and in your example of someone downloading it but realising it is shit and then not buying it is still stealing it. I don't care about the effects of it, I don't care about your whining about it not being a good port, all that matters is was the moral thing done.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;32423743]I don't give a fuck how people make it work or how big it is, all I am concerned with is is it morally justifiable to pirate it. It may be biased but you know how to differentiate between bullshit and reality. If that's not enough and you want an absolute guarantee that you will enjoy it then don't buy anything because everything is a risk, every single purchase from clothes to food to movies has a good chance of being absolute shit, but you still risk it if you think the odds are good. Complete aversion to any risk is just being a picky bitch. I don't care about your anecdotal evidence or developers making use of it to further the game, that's their option. People who do not follow this though are not obliged to guarantee to you that it will be good when your tastes are as varied as everyone and you could very well hate the game everyone else loves.[/QUOTE]If, by not taking a risk, you lose nothing but possibly gain something... WHY WOULD YOU NOT DO THAT!? Tell me the logic of taking a risk when you could have not taken it and gotten better results overall? Your logic is absolutely ridiculous. [QUOTE=Devodiere;32423788]It is moral and in your example of someone downloading it but realising it is shit and then not buying it is still stealing it. I don't care about the effects of it, I don't care about your whining about it not being a good port, all that matters is was the moral thing done.[/QUOTE]Since when is it moral to be a corporate loyalist retard? Wasting your money isn't moral, it's stupid and unnecessary.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;32423809]If, by not taking a risk, you lose nothing but possibly gain something... WHY WOULD YOU NOT DO THAT!? Tell me the logic of taking a risk when you could have not taken it and gotten better results overall? Your logic is absolutely ridiculous.[/QUOTE] Because it's morally wrong? That's the point I've been trying to make. Sure there's plenty of arguments for it but they're all flawed, it's not morally right. [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=FlakAttack;32423809]Since when is it moral to be a corporate loyalist retard? Wasting your money isn't moral, it's stupid and unnecessary.[/QUOTE] Then how about you don't buy shitty games and stop complaining about wasting your money? Or better yet, how about you spend it on more important things that you won't be so mad about and regret later on.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;32423825]Because it's morally wrong? That's the point I've been trying to make. Sure there's plenty of arguments for it but they're all flawed, it's not morally right.[/QUOTE] Ok, so logic and morality are two different arguments. Obviously my logic is better than yours, because I'm not needlessly taking risks to get at the same place. But our view of the morality differs. You say that once you've downloaded it, you have done something immoral. Why is it immoral? Because you are holding onto content you haven't purchased? Let's flip that around. Would you agree it is immoral to use all the forces modern science knows to encourage you to buy a product you may not enjoy? Is it immoral to take money from someone who did not like your product at all? I think it is. [QUOTE=Devodiere;32423825]Then how about you don't buy shitty games and stop complaining about wasting your money? Or better yet, how about you spend it on more important things that you won't be so mad about and regret later on.[/QUOTE]Irrelevant flaming. Nice. Looks like you lose buddy. For the record, the whole point of this was I don't buy stupid games because I try them first. Your assumption displays a complete lack of understanding of my argument and furthur proves you're just wasting my time.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;32423871]Ok, so logic and morality are too different arguments. Obviously my logic is better than yours, because I'm not needlessly taking risks to get at the same place. But our view of the morality differs. You say that once you've downloaded it, you have done something immoral. Why is it immoral? Because you are holding onto content you haven't purchased? Let's flip that around. Would you agree it is immoral to use all the forces modern science knows to encourage you to buy a product you may not enjoy? Is it immoral to take money from someone who did not like your product at all? I think it is.[/quote] Your logic is irrelevant because the goals are different. You want to minimise risk for the consumer, I want to find if such an action is moral. You do not get to the same point because as I said, if you do not purchase it later on then you have stolen from them with the excuse that "It's a bad game". Them advertising their game is not mind control and they are not taking your money. They are providing you with entertainment, not a guarantee that you will like it. [quote]Irrelevant flaming. Nice. Looks like you lose buddy. For the record, the whole point of this was I don't buy stupid games because I try them first. Your assumption displays a complete lack of understanding of my argument and furthur proves you're just wasting my time.[/QUOTE] Is this a game of the first person to insult the other loses? If so I'd think you calling me a retard along with doing things that are stupid and unnecessary counts. You could always not even try stupid games you know. It's not required in any way to play it so you could just not play it if you are so worried about the risk.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;32423947]Is this a game of the first person to insult the other loses? If so I'd think you calling me a retard along with doing things that are stupid and unnecessary counts.[/QUOTE] I can see why you think I called you a retard, but it was posted as a generalization (corporate loyalist retard not referring to you at all, more as a cautionary point, as in "I don't want to be a corporate loyalist retard"). Still, resorting to that kind of attitude tends to lose you a lot of points in a debate. In real life it could even end one. [QUOTE=Devodiere;32423947]You could always not even try stupid games you know. It's not required in any way to play it so you could just not play it if you are so worried about the risk.[/QUOTE] Are you omniscient? Because I'm not, and I don't automatically know a game is stupid. How the fuck is that even a logical argument? Besides, I already explained away your faulty risk logic. Also, I disagree completely with your answer. "Them advertising their game is not mind control and they are not taking your money. They are providing you with entertainment, not a guarantee that you will like it." First off, you know absolutely nothing about the level of psychological control advertisers have. Take some psychology courses or look it up on youtube, you will find it quite enlightening. Second, yes, they are taking your money, and they're doing it with the implication that you will enjoy the product. However, no one in entertainment will refund you even when you are completely unsatisfied. How is that moral at all? You said "They are providing you with entertainment, not a guarantee that you will like it." but that's just legalese for "lol take it up the ass, tough shit, deal with it". That's not a moral argument, that's a legal one. The moral thing to do would be to give an unhappy customer his money back. But somehow you jumped to the conclusion that the moral thing to do is take the dick up the ass and like it. No, you don't HAVE to get fucked, you can still be the good guy and not get fucked. That's what you're missing. Just because you're not playing by their rules doesn't mean you're the Evil Neckbeard roaming the Seven Internets looking to plunder everything like some fucking pirate/viking/hacker hybrid hyped up on coke. Remember that their rules might not be the ideal rules everyone should be following. Theirs are just the legal ones (for now).

I'd like to see the statistics of how many people actually pirate just to "preview". It seems like complete bullshit me.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;32424086]I can see why you think I called you a retard, but it was posted as a generalization (corporate loyalist retard not referring to you at all, more as a cautionary point, as in "I don't want to be a corporate loyalist retard"). Still, resorting to that kind of attitude tends to lose you a lot of points in a debate. In real life it could even end one.[/quote] Wow, aren't you so pro at debates. How about we just pretend you understood what I said was a joke and move on from name calling. [quote]Are you omniscient? Because I'm not, and I don't automatically know a game is stupid. How the fuck is that even a logical argument? Besides, I already explained away your faulty risk logic.[/QUOTE] That's not the point. Not knowing if it was shit before you purchased it isn't a reason to steal it to make sure. You can't just sit in ambiguity and pretend it's unknowable until you play it, make a choice based on what you like, what people have said about it and every other factor at your disposal. Avoidance of disappointment is not reason enough.

Piracy is a great way to test stuff, if there's no demo or the demo just doesn't give you a large enough picture about the game/product. But there are immoral enough people who just pirate stuff with this "Fuck the police"-attitude, they are the actual cancer, piracy itself isn't really that cancerous after all.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;32424139]That's not the point. Not knowing if it was shit before you purchased it isn't a reason to steal it to make sure. You can't just sit in ambiguity and pretend it's unknowable until you play it, make a choice based on what you like, what people have said about it and every other factor at your disposal. Avoidance of disappointment is not reason enough.[/QUOTE] Oh god this again? -Not stolen, copied -Not ambigous, quite clear: haven't played it? Don't know what it's like. -Avoidance of disappointment? More like avoiding paying people who don't deserve it. I don't throw money around like a madman, my money is mine and I worked hard to get it. Maybe it will make more sense to you in point form.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;32424233] -Avoidance of disappointment? More like avoiding paying people who don't deserve it. I don't throw money around like a madman, my money is mine and I worked hard to get it. [/QUOTE] A team works for years on a game. What they earn is dependent on the game. And here you come saying that you're pirating to avoid "paying people who don't deserve it". As if the developers didn't work hard at all . . . [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] I guess it's alright if you're only going to "test" the game. But if you fully finish it and then have no intentions to pay the developers, then you're an ass.