Pirating and other illegal free options through the internet - General

Stealing means you lose principal (Is that the right word?), on the other hand copying doesn't mean they lose anything in fact people who pirate either want a full demo for a game they might buy which could end in a sale, or they didn't have plans on buying it in the first place

[QUOTE=toaster468;32454963]Stealing means you lose principal (Is that the right word?), on the other hand copying doesn't mean they lose anything in fact people who pirate either want a full demo for a game they might buy which could end in a sale, or they didn't have plans on buying it in the first place[/QUOTE] No, stealing means you're taking something without consent. In regards to intellectual property (including media), this also encompasses acquiring a copy when you aren't supposed to.

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;32455479]No, stealing means you're taking something without consent. In regards to intellectual property (including media), this also encompasses acquiring a copy when you aren't supposed to.[/QUOTE] Danke.

[QUOTE=clanratc;32454922]Please, learn what piracy is before posting. Piracy is NOT a definition for lost sales and is not treated as such. Piracy is copyright infringement and more specifically infringement on the right of distribution and reproduction of a product. The only reason the term "lost potential sales" is thrown around is because it can provide a metric of how much [B]potential[/B] revenue a company has lost due to piracy. How accurate those statistics are is a different matter however.[/QUOTE] Calm down, I was just offering a funny perspective to look at.

I don't pirate a new games, or any games that a developer can still make money off of. I am a huge supporter of abandonware - if a game is no longer in circulation and there's no way to buy it legitimately from the creator, then why should I spend my money on it? The same goes for ROM files. I could run over to a Play and Trade to buy some NES games, but that money doesn't go to Nintendo so what's the point?

[QUOTE=fenwick;32417976]But let's say you spent millions of dollars to make the pizza, and sell it by the slice in order to turn a profit. But instead people just take it. [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] I still lose no real money by people not paying, And the average person is decent enough to give money for my generosity. No it's not. It's like if you ran a football stadium and people snuck into a game. They're stealing a service.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=fenwick;32417976] No it's not. It's like if you ran a football stadium and people snuck into a game. They're stealing a service.[/QUOTE] Except those people are both taking up seats that a paying customer could occupy, and increasing costs, since more people means more security is needed, more maintenance, etc.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;32424233]Oh god this again? -Not stolen, copied -Not ambigous, quite clear: haven't played it? Don't know what it's like. -Avoidance of disappointment? More like avoiding paying people who don't deserve it. I don't throw money around like a madman, my money is mine and I worked hard to get it. Maybe it will make more sense to you in point form.[/QUOTE] I've heard a good sentence that sums up the harm of pirating. It's like having your car stolen but its still there.

[QUOTE=duno;32482751]I've heard a good sentence that sums up the harm of pirating. It's like having your car stolen but its still there.[/QUOTE] It's like you're a car renting company, someone comes in and copy's your entire car, doesn't pay you, and drives around while you pay road tax and insurance for it.

I did this with deus ex. Tried it for two days, fell in love, bought it. did the same thing with metal of honor 2011... uninstalled the next day.

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32419224]Then they don't deserve it. Why does anyone deserve to pay when pirates get it for free? The pirates are essentially leeching off of those who pay for the game.[/QUOTE] That same argument is made about things like wellfare and other social contracts we make to help others. Maybe pirates are just internet wellfare patrons?

[QUOTE=The one that is;32487502]That same argument is made about things like wellfare and other social contracts we make to help others. Maybe pirates are just internet wellfare patrons?[/QUOTE] With the exception that wallfare and social contracts help other people and games are only entertainment.

[QUOTE=The one that is;32487502]That same argument is made about things like wellfare and other social contracts we make to help others. Maybe pirates are just internet wellfare patrons?[/QUOTE] People need to eat and have shelter in order to survive, no one ever needs video games. That analogy is extremely flawed

[QUOTE=Valnar;32488410]People need to eat and have shelter in order to survive, no one ever needs video games. That analogy is extremely flawed[/QUOTE] But there are people that leech off welfare without even trying to improve their standard of living even though they are perfectly capable.

[QUOTE=Maximo13;32488452]But there are people that leech off welfare without even trying to improve their standard of living even though they are perfectly capable.[/QUOTE] This is a debate for another thread but you are using anecdotal accounts against the welfare system. Saying that some people are leeching off it doesn't describe how many people actually are or the relevancy of that fact. And it still stands that no human being needs video games to survive.

Pirates gonna pirate, just let them. Some people have pirated every game they have, others pirate then buy. There's no point in fighting it because they'll always find a way around it; find ways to encourage people to buy the game rather than trying to discourage people from pirating.

The thing is theres really no way to stop pirating and most pirates are hardcore gamers who buy lots of games. Instead of fighting piracy the developers will have to learn that making the customer want to pay for a game is the best idea.

Software pirates are scum just like common thieves. The fact there are infinite versions makes no difference to me, you are not paying for something you should be, that's stealing in my book.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;32484720]It's like you're a car renting company, someone comes in and copy's your entire car, doesn't pay you, and drives around while you pay road tax and insurance for it.[/QUOTE] Except companies don't pay a dime for piracy.

[QUOTE=Randdalf;32495609]Software pirates are scum just like common thieves. The fact there are infinite versions makes no difference to me, you are not paying for something you should be, that's stealing in my book.[/QUOTE] ok :smile: and just wondering, what loophole exists that makes 90% of these posters in this thread not banned?

[QUOTE=krazipanda;32496513]ok :smile: and just wondering, what loophole exists that makes 90% of these posters in this thread not banned?[/QUOTE]That it's a debate and their "records" are relevant to the discussions since they make use of it to back up their points. [editline]27th September 2011[/editline] But try going on a report spree.

[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;32496146]Except companies don't pay a dime for piracy.[/QUOTE] No but they stand to make less money which is the entire argument that has played out for 11 pages here. [QUOTE=FlakAttack;32444616]Oh by all means, I agree, and ever since I've actually had money to spend on games, this is how I've done it. I don't finish games I don't like... to be honest, for games that have "levels" I try the first few levels and try to get a grasp on gameplay. For games that are more open, I give it a few hours to sink in and see how much I like it. Either way, I buy games that I like and delete those I don't. It really is that simple. [B]Now, what's got me puzzled is first, people were saying that pirates are always a potential loss of income for devs. Then people said "what about poor people who have no money? They have nothing to give and thus devs lose nothing" so the argument somehow magically changed to "If you don't pay, you don't play period".[/B] You know, my dad wanted to get a new Web Framework to toy around with a few days ago but it cost over $500. He emailed the guy and told him that on his disability pension, $500 was just too much, and he wanted to know if he could get it for less. The guy gave it to my dad FOR FREE, with the only condition being that if he developed anything handy, he would like to be able to advertise it. My dad intended to make his product open to the public anyway, so he agreed. My dad could have just downloaded this framework considering he has very little money, and the guy knew it, so by extending good will to an underprivileged man, he may get something in the future (as opposed to nothing). Even if my dad just downloaded it though, the free press he would have recieved if his product was any good would have probably made it worth it right there (my dad is a talkative guy with the other programmers in the area heh). I guess what I'm saying is, this particular developer had nothing to lose and everything to gain here, just like any developer dealing with those who are simply too poor to afford [B]A COPY[/B] of their products. Obviously this isn't the same as giving away free physical items, where there is a real cost attached... but copies are not the same. And let me reiterate to the idiots out there, [B]COPYING =/= STEALING[/B]. Have any of you not read an EULA for a digital download? You're buying a license, not a physical game, not even a copy. The license is what makes it legal to operate the software, not the copy. So yes, while having in your possession a copy you are not licensed to run may be wrong, depending on your interpretation of the circumstances... the actual act of copying is NOT wrong. Once again, copying is not inherently wrong, and it most certainly is not automatically stealing. You need to understand this before you can ever debate this topic with any accuracy. [/QUOTE] It's not always going to be the poorer people who will pirate the games though, it will be the people who can afford it but are opportunistic and see it as just another bargain. That's when it becomes more complicated than just copying a file that supposedly takes nothing from developers. It is when potential consumers see torrents as a means of getting a better deal, not stealing, that the whole process is legitimised. This of course is important because like with your dad, they'll advertise a service to their peers. Problem is, the service they'll advertise is thepiratebay or something similar that does not benefit the developers. At the end of the day, game development is more than a hobby for most of the people making games. It's a profession and they rely on a steady stream of income to continue living. The individual people within the companies end up feeling the pinch when there's less of an income stream. The argument that keeps revolving through this thread is that the company is going to get recognition and a good reputation by simply getting their game out there. However if their first game is mainly pirated, they'll have little profit with which to develop further games. That's hugely damaging to the quality of the game, thus any prospective income. It's noble that you will buy games that you've played after a quick pirate, but so many people just don't operate that way and see it as a free game. There's no incentive for them to buy something that they could download for free. What I think would be helpful is if places like thepiratebay were to make it clear to pirates just what the consequences of downloading a game are for the company. It's a proliferation of a sense of entitlement throughout society as much as it is copying a file from someone.

some bullshit moral absolutism up in here

Piracy has nothing to do with lost sales. It is copyright infringement. It is highly illegal.

if a developer doesn't provide a demo i reserve my right to pirate the game with passive media like movies a trailer is enough and for books the first chapter is enough to know whether you'll like the book or not but short gameplay videos aren't enough for a game for example, i was recently watching a playthrough of final fantasy tactics, which was entertaining to watch in itself but when i finally got my hands on the game i had miles more fun playing the game then watching it and although the gameplay influenced my decision this took 40 videos that were 10-15 minutes each to convince me which is time most people don't want to spend to make a decision

[QUOTE=wlzshroom;32499767]if a developer doesn't provide a demo i reserve my right to pirate the game[/QUOTE] yerg, quite a self-declared right there. You're taking the entire game.

[QUOTE=MRTW113;32500186]yerg, quite a self-declared right there. You're taking the entire game.[/QUOTE] But how is a end-user supposed to get a personal first impression of the game then? Not everyone has enough money in their budget to throw it on a game based only on some reviews made by people not like him/her. And gameplay video's doesn't count as personal first impression.

[QUOTE=Van-man;32500979]But how is a end-user supposed to get a personal first impression of the game then? Not everyone has enough money in their budget to throw it on a game based only on some reviews made by people not like him/her. And gameplay video's doesn't count as personal first impression.[/QUOTE] you dont live in a new house for a week before buying it, you only get a look at it- yet people still do that? (and it's a few hundred thousand more involved there)

onlive offers 30 minute trial for every single game they have and they have a pretty good lineup

[QUOTE=Van-man;32500979]But how is a end-user supposed to get a personal first impression of the game then? Not everyone has enough money in their budget to throw it on a game based only on some reviews made by people not like him/her. And gameplay video's doesn't count as personal first impression.[/QUOTE] You don't buy the game then, if it is too much of a risk to yourself and they don't provide a demo, and you don't trust any reviews and you don't have anyone else you know that owns the game just don't buy it.