Pirating and other illegal free options through the internet - General

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32392433]That's a fun definition. I liked the part where you pulled it out of your ass. Look at my post last page. There is the REAL definition.[/QUOTE] That was just my definition. dont get mad about it.

[QUOTE=AK'z;32392781]How do you know I didn't just make a copy of it legitly from a CD I had bought?[/QUOTE] You are not allowed to distribute copies of cd's you bought to anyone that isn't in your household so it doesn't matter.

[QUOTE=AK'z;32392781]How do you know I didn't just make a copy of it legitly from a CD I had bought?[/QUOTE] basically almost all forms of digital media have some sort of copyright protection on them. If you were to simply copy and distribute a disc, whoever you give that disc to would have to circumvent the DRM in order to access the content. Which would be illegal. You can circumvent the DRM yourself, and then distribute the content, but then that would be illegal as well, because you are only allowed to circumvent DRM when the DRM directly affects your ability to access the content, which wouldn't be the case here.

Most developers have thrown the idea of a free playable demo out the window. If I'm honestly tempted to try a game, but there is no available demo and I lack any legal currency, then there is a good chanece I'll probably get an .iso archive of the game. Is the game good? Cool, I'll buy it. Is the game bad? Then I won't buy it. One example is Achtung Panzer: Kharkov 1943, developed by Graviteam, a fairly unknown developer from the Ukraine. They published a free demo of the game. Did I like it? Hell yes. What did this translate to? Buying a digital copy of the game from Amazon. Good customer service can end up in the product itself being utilized, and procured properly.

[QUOTE=Kero_;32378048]What about the money the record label deserves?[/QUOTE] Record Labels are evil.

Wait until reviews of te game come out? There is no excuse for getting a game to demo it.

For the developers, they might get your interest in the game if you pirate it, buy special in game items, and get interested in the second game. The try it, then buy it doesn't always work as you end up finishing the game. But there might not be multiplayer. So you. Get that 6 hour campaign in call of duty for free and pay 60 for the actual game and multiplayer. I would argue on both sides when it comes to the game price. 60 for call of duty, it's kinda over priced. But for rpgs like dragon age, it's different as you get 50 hours + of infinite replayability and multiplayer. Rpgs are always worth it, as long as it has 50 hours + , unlimited replay value, etc. The point is, some games are over priced and Activision still makes billions. I think enoguh people pirated cod4 to buy the actual games in the future. for the developers side, most people don't know how much time, money and effort it takes to make a game, it requires several people often in a facility to code, design, create the game. And the more money the devs get, the more budget they have for the next, which helps them get more resources and workers.

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32395174]Wait until reviews of te game come out? There is no excuse for getting a game to demo it.[/QUOTE] Most reviews are not a trustworthy source. I want to judge the game from my point of view. The customer's point of view is a major determining factor.

I don't think there is anything wrong with pirating. I mean, not all people should do it, but if i was a musician, i would just be glad that some people actually liked listening to my music. When i share music i made, i always do it free. I can't see what's wrong in that.

[QUOTE=Egg;32395322]I don't think there is anything wrong with pirating. I mean, not all people should do it, but if i was a musician, i would just be glad that some people actually liked listening to my music. When i share music i made, i always do it free. I can't see what's wrong in that.[/QUOTE] But then you don't earn a living from it. Let's say you sold...Apples. You need to sell it to make a living, so you can eat, enjoy life etc. But then, people are just taking apples from trees everywhere. Then your buisness would go pew. Also, artists have a more luxury lifestyle, so if they don't get money from their music, they'll just dissapear.

I have a job, I buy my games. But this is my stand point. Pirating is not stealing. Stealing something means you are actively taking something for your own that belongs to someone else, where now that you have stolen their item, they no longer have it, and you do. So if you want to use the handbag analogy. If i stole a woman's handbag, the she would no longer be in possession of the item because i have taken it from her. This isn't the case with pirating. People pirate games because A. They don't have any money to buy the game. B. They would not buy the game even if they had money. You name me one scenario where those two reasons don't apply. To put it in short. People who pirate were never going to buy the game in the first place. So how can it be stealing? Now, if you answer that question "because you stole Intellectual property from a company." Well no, nobody stole intellectual property from a company. Lets go back to my first statement. To steal is to take something of value from an entity in which the entity will no longer have said item.(handbag analogy.) So something as intangible as a series of code that makes up a visual and audible experience ie. a game, from the internet can not by definition be stealing as it was never in existence anyway. In other words, if the intellectual property stolen, wasn't in material form, then said publisher or studio has neither lost a published copy of said game, nor gained a customer.(assuming my two customer reasons apply). People using pirated versions of games as demos is another story that i wont get into. With that said, I have a job and i prefer to support studios who's games i anticipate.

Downloading for free isn't pirating. The retarded EU hunt guy wants you to belive in that. Pirating is putting up something you bought for free or making something free be paid.

Am I the only one who likes to actually have a physical copy of either a movie or game to put in my shelf? I find absolutely no joy in downloading a movie.

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32383637]What the fuck. How can you possibly justify pirating something due to lack of money? Do you just steal everything you want if you don't have the money for it?[/QUOTE] When I downloaded a copy of a game I could not possibly have afforded (due to being too young and not having employment), who got hurt? I'll tell you: NO ONE. NO ONE GOT HURT BY ME DOWNLOADING GAMES. Just try and prove otherwise. Besides, now I buy games. Had I not had the chance to play any games as a kid, I may have never become a gamer and I would have just done something else with my life, and my money would have come with me. So who would have benefitted then? No one idiot. Think before you open your mouth. [QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32395174]Wait until reviews of te game come out? There is no excuse for getting a game to demo it.[/QUOTE] Uhh yes there is. Do you try clothes on before you buy them? Do you test drive a car before you buy it? Well then I'm going to try my games before I buy them. Once again, think before you open your mouth. Jesus man, you have absolutely no understanding or flexibility, it's all black and white for you isn't it. Go shit up another argument please (preferably not one I care about).

[QUOTE=Confuzzed Otto;32395732]But then you don't earn a living from it. Let's say you sold...Apples. You need to sell it to make a living, so you can eat, enjoy life etc. But then, people are just taking apples from trees everywhere. Then your buisness would go pew. Also, artists have a more luxury lifestyle, so if they don't get money from their music, they'll just dissapear.[/QUOTE] I understand that selling their music is their living. Music should of course not be given out free. But it could to a limited extent, like if the musician chose it to be like that. Actually, i think it would be best of the musicians decided it completely themselves.

If I made something I'd rather have it be downloaded by pirates or whatever than nobody knowing about my work.

Why the hell does everyone think the lack of a demo is justification for piracy? [I]"It's like test driving a car, I want to know if I like it before I buy it"[/I] Test driving a car isn't a right. It's a service. If they don't provide a demo, then don't buy the game if you feel so strongly about it.

Oh, and does anyone else have those friends that download absolutely everything? They look forward to a game for months, and then when it's released they download it. One even got annoyed because he couldn't pirate Portal 2. Oh, and this goes for movies as well. Me: Hey, wanna watch *insert newly released movie here* at the cinema this weekend? They: Nah, already downloaded the cam version. Pretty good movie. :colbert:

I can't remember what game it was, but my friend was saying there was a game that when you pirated it, all the players in the game wore pirate hats :v: Anyway, I'm with the "test drive" idea, but aslong as you don't take the piss (eg. 10 games a month) and mabye download one or two every few month then i'd see it as cool.

people are still comparing copying of intangible information in a file on a computer to a tangible item in real life such as apples or cars. When there is 1000 cars made off the manufacturing line, and you steal one, the company lost profits from 1 out of 1000 cars. Money they will never see. When you download intellectual property, you are not costing the company money by downloading a copy of a version of the game that was already bought. Real life analogies to source code do not apply as one is a tangible item, and the other is an illusive COPY of a tangible item. Did no one read my post?

[QUOTE=Adzter;32396121]I can't remember what game it was, but my friend was saying there was a game that when you pirated it, all the players in the game wore pirate hats :v: Anyway, I'm with the "test drive" idea, but aslong as you don't take the piss (eg. 10 games a month) and mabye download one or two every few month then i'd see it as cool.[/QUOTE]I read about this somewhere, probably torrentfreak. It's a pretty great idea.

[QUOTE=AK'z;32392200]I could "legally" make a thousand copies of a digital dvd or a cd on my computer. It's makes sense to be illegal when you are giving out or selling copyrighted material that you aren't licensed for. Otherwise I think "home-use" of this stuff isn't wrong. Blame piraters all you like, but I blame technology simplicity for the downfall of the music industry. Oh well.[/QUOTE] Actually, I blame technological simplicity for the fall of the music industry as well, but not for the reasons you think. See, for many years now, the music industry has had complete control over who could really release their music the public and who couldn't. The reason is simple: the costs were ENORMOUS. Imagine buying or renting the machines needed to make early vinyl records, or even later, CDs? Total insanity to think that the layman would have the capital to pull something like this off. Then came the age of the internet. Suddenly, people could share their productions online without ever having to go through a recording company. They could even sell it online cheaper than they would in-store, and still recieve more money for their music than they would have through the recording company. Seriously, who wouldn't want to partake in that business model? Extend that business model to games (indie games especially), books, newspaper/journals, and soon, movies and TV shows... and you are starting to understand: the future of all these mediums is online, where the giant publishing corporations can't manhandle them anymore and the artists/developers of these products can self-publish them cheaper than ever before while reaping more of the profit. Meanwhile, it is cheaper and more convenient for the user. Sure, some people will just pirate their media, but the potential gain in profit outweighs the losses big time. Anyway this is all a point aside from the actual debate but I figured it was relevant enough to mention it. Piracy is going to be part of this new future, but as some developers have said, rather than fight it, why not make it work for you?

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;32396162]people are still comparing copying of intangible information in a file on a computer to a tangible item in real life such as apples or cars. When there is 1000 cars made off the manufacturing line, and you steal one, the company lost profits from 1 out of 1000 cars. Money they will never see. When you download intellectual property, you are not costing the company money by downloading a copy of a version of the game that was already bought. Real life analogies to source code do not apply as one is a tangible item, and the other is an illusive COPY of a tangible item. Did no one read my post?[/QUOTE] You're arguing on terms of supply, that the supply of a product is what a company loses due to theft, and that since software has an infinite supply, they do not take a loss when it is pirated. Though this is true (a software company does not lose money from loss of supply), you're neglecting demand. In a case where a person steals property, they were potential customers of the property they took (if they had absolutely no interest in the product, why would they steal it?). Since they now have the product, they no longer need to buy it, which in turn lowers the demand. [I]"I pirated a game and got 5 friends to buy it! Piracy helps game developers! It increases demand!"[/I] Nice argument you got there. Had you bought it and showed friends, it would have had the same effect. Piracy robbed the developer of a sale. [I]"I pirated, liked it, and bought it!"[/I] I'll be fair, you didn't make the developer lose a sale. Still, what makes you entitled to try out software before buying it? [I]"I pirated, didn't like it, and didn't buy it! Lucky me, saved $50!"[/I] Lucky for you. The developer just lost a possible sale due to piracy.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;32380608]This would be a world I want to live in.[/QUOTE] Taxes would have to be very high to fund every game that's made, and for every great game that gets published, there are a dozen shovelware games you really have no interest in funding, and the only real way to get around that would be for the government to control what games are made and what aren't, which could also turn into a very bad thing.

really, developers just can't stop it. people will always find ways around their drm, no matter what. it's better for them to give up on it and save everyone some time and money

[QUOTE=jeimizu;32397996]Taxes would have to be very high to fund every game that's made, and for every great game that gets published, there are a dozen shovelware games you really have no interest in funding, and the only real way to get around that would be for the government to control what games are made and what aren't, which could also turn into a very bad thing.[/QUOTE] It works for TV and Radio, why not for games?

[QUOTE=SuppliesAttack;32397463] Though this is true (a software company does not lose money from loss of supply), you're neglecting demand. In a case where a person steals property, they were potential customers of the property they took (if they had absolutely no interest in the product, why would they steal it?). Since they now have the product, they no longer need to buy it, which in turn lowers the demand. [/QUOTE] Demand is rather irrelevant if you don't have the money to buy it. [editline]20th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers2;32398035]It works for TV and Radio, why not for games?[/QUOTE] Most TV and radio stations are based on ad revenue. While ad revenue can support games too, most people don't want it in their games. The only place where it's really been successful is with mobile games. It might not be a bad idea for full games though. Have a free version with ads, and a full version without, so people could still try the game before they bought it, without pirating it.

music piracy does kill me inside, seeing hundreds of talented and relatively unknown producers having to live off of barely any money due to their releases either being released early or just on every piracy site on the day of release its happened so much that club night prices have been driven right up because of it, and it's a nightmare now trying to run a label

[QUOTE=SuppliesAttack;32397463]You're arguing on terms of supply, that the supply of a product is what a company loses due to theft, and that since software has an infinite supply, they do not take a loss when it is pirated. Though this is true (a software company does not lose money from loss of supply), you're neglecting demand. In a case where a person steals property, they were potential customers of the property they took (if they had absolutely no interest in the product, why would they steal it?). Since they now have the product, they no longer need to buy it, which in turn lowers the demand. [I]"I pirated a game and got 5 friends to buy it! Piracy helps game developers! It increases demand!"[/I] Nice argument you got there. Had you bought it and showed friends, it would have had the same effect. Piracy robbed the developer of a sale. [I]"I pirated, liked it, and bought it!"[/I] I'll be fair, you didn't make the developer lose a sale. Still, what makes you entitled to try out software before buying it? [I]"I pirated, didn't like it, and didn't buy it! Lucky me, saved $50!"[/I] Lucky for you. The developer just lost a possible sale due to piracy.[/QUOTE] Point well taken. However it is certainly arguable that the person who pirated would not have bought the game if it had not been available through the internet. This is certainly up for debate, of course. If you refer to my post on the last page i go a bit into the reasons why people pirate. It may not be the case for every single person out there who pirates, but i presume it would account for a vast majority of situations. You can have interest in a game, just not enough to the point of buying it. Games like BRINK don't make it any easier for the consumer to decide either. I know i personally got burned from brink. So even the unknown can be turned into an argument. You never know if you will like it or not, and you can't return a pc game. Reviews can be helpful, but they do not cater to your personal aspirations for a game.

[QUOTE=SuppliesAttack;32388160][I]"I can't afford games"/"I wouldn't buy it anyways"/"I hate them so I'll pirate"[/I] So fucking what? You're not entitled to play the game without paying.[/QUOTE] Noone said they'd be 'entitled' to. Doesn't change the fact that if, for whatever reason, someone truly wasn't going to buy a game/album/movie/whatever and there's no potential for a lost sale, then there is absolutely no harm done by piracy, so why shouldn't people do it?