Pirating and other illegal free options through the internet - General

I support game developers, if the game looks interesting I buy it. Piracy isn't stealing either. Copyright laws really should be redone to permit fair usage. Not everyone has thousands of dollars for a piece of software, thus it makes it perfectly fine to obtain such software "illegally" (the whole definition of illegal is total crap for things like this) as you could never afford to buy it in the first place.

[QUOTE=jeimizu;32398046]Demand is rather irrelevant if you don't have the money to buy it.[/QUOTE] True. Then again, I was focusing on the economic repercussions of piracy. I oppose it from a moral standpoint: that piracy is wrong and should not exist, regardless if you can afford to pay or not. [QUOTE=DiBBs27;32398522]Point well taken. However it is certainly arguable that the person who pirated would not have bought the game if it had not been available through the internet. This is certainly up for debate, of course.[/QUOTE] That is true, I can't claim that everyone who wants a game will buy it. However, it would be safe to say that companies lose sales due to piracy from people who would have otherwise bought the game had there been no pirate alternative. [QUOTE=DiBBs27;32398522]If you refer to my post on the last page i go a bit into the reasons why people pirate.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DiBBs27;32398522]Pirating is not stealing. Stealing something means you are actively taking something for your own that belongs to someone else, where now that you have stolen their item, they no longer have it, and you do.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't call it stealing under that definition, either. It is, however, breaching the creator's right to distribute his product as he sees fit, effectively disowning him of his own work. [QUOTE=DiBBs27;32398522]People pirate games because A. They don't have any money to buy the game. B. They would not buy the game even if they had money. You name me one scenario where those two reasons don't apply. To put it in short. People who pirate were never going to buy the game in the first place. [/QUOTE] Point A means the pirate feels entitled to play games he can't pay for. That does not make his actions right. Point B is trying to justify piracy through denial. If you're downloading it, there's gotta be some reason you're doing it. "I wouldn't buy the game anyways" is another way to say "I don't want to pay for it but I don't wanna pass this game up, time to torrent" Both points depict potential buyers of the game that don't because piracy exists. [QUOTE=DiBBs27;32398522]You can't steal it because it's intangible and no one loses physical assets (summary of the last lines)[/QUOTE] If you want to euphemize the word "steal", go ahead. It still hurts the company because, whether you admit it or not, you're always a potential customer. They don't lose physical assets from piracy, they lose their customer base. [QUOTE=DiBBs27;32398522]It may not be the case for every single person out there who pirates, but i presume it would account for a vast majority of situations. You can have interest in a game, just not enough to the point of buying it. Games like BRINK don't make it any easier for the consumer to decide either. I know i personally got burned from brink. So even the unknown can be turned into an argument. You never know if you will like it or not, and you can't return a pc game. Reviews can be helpful, but they do not cater to your personal aspirations for a game.[/QUOTE] As much as it sucks to buy a game you thought you'd like and didn't, piracy is definitely not the answer. Is it fair for companies to lose millions of dollars due to piracy so you can "try out" a game? If it's a truly horrible game, the company will go out of business or get better, piracy or not. The problem is that good game companies lose revenue from piracy too, which in turn elects 3 responses: 1: They use DRM to try and counter piracy. Community rages, pirates out of anger. EX: Ubisoft 2: They focus less on the PC Version, or opt out of it altogether EX: Rockstar 3: They try to ignore/work with the pirate community. They get shafted EX: World of Goo Piracy is wrong. It denys compensation for the work put in to software and it elicits DRM and other regulatory measures against legitimate users.

[QUOTE=SuppliesAttack;32399451] The problem is that good game companies lose revenue from piracy too, which in turn elects responses: 1: They use DRM to try and counter piracy. Community rages, pirates out of anger. EX: [B]Ubisoft[/B] Piracy is wrong. It denys compensation for the work put in to software and it elicits DRM and other regulatory measures against legitimate users.[/QUOTE] I really hate it with Ubisofts DRM, constant internet connection to play assasins creed, it's not my fault i dont have an xbox.

While those statements are true, they can not be used in a sweeping manner such as this. Some people pirate because they would have no interest in a game if it weren't directly with in the range or their cursor. Neither can that be a sweeping statement, but there are two sides of the fence, for sure.

People pirate music, and people call it a bad crime, yet the people who made the music are millionaires, and they totally need a ton more money to spend on parties and Ferraris Also, Devs really should start making demos. Even if they are just basic tech demos. I usually want to see if the game will even run on my computer My baby brother broke my prototype game CD, and it was non-steam so I couldn't play it without the disk. I played the game ONCE. My dad got it for me a year ago, and I never got around to playing it much due to being busy, so no trade-backs or anything.Pirating it isn't really hurting the company IMO in this case, and I don't really feel wrong about it because that was a 60 dollar game that was rightfully paid for. I haven't re-bought it/"re-aquired it" yet because I have been too lazy, but still...

I don't believe Piracy to be a necesarily good thing, but I don't go to the extremes that many people have done here. Of course, developers deserve the money they should get if someone wants to play the game. I don't really have a problem with the people who "try before you buy." However I think Piracy plays somewhat of a necesary part in these kinds of industries. I truly despise people who will pirate everything, even if they like or love it and have enough money to purchase it and this is all too common. The three examples that were listed above are good onces, but I'm not sure I entirely agree. Ubisoft frickign deserve to be deserted for what they did, the community raged because what they did was simply wrong, in an effort to piss on the pirates, they failed miserably and it only took out onto the actual consumers. If you make a bad decision, you should most definitely suffer the consequences. As for Rockstar, piracy or no piracy, you're going to make less money if you ignore a platform altogether, that too is a bad decision that I have no doubt they would have suffered for. As for World of Goo, many of the counts they used to measure the pirates vs non-pirates were completely unreliable, there was nothing built into the game to measure this and the counts were simply taken off random torrent and download counts. Not only did many of the people who pirated the game, bought it, such as myself, alot of the count in these things is shared between websites, falsified completely and it's not uncommon for a count to be added without the download actually taking place. World of Goo made up for their 'loss' with the Humble Bundle ordeal, so in the end, it worked out for them. I think piracy is a community reaction, a way to force developers into listening, as they all too often refuse to. However, the extent to which it has reached has gone beyond this, often people pirating purely because it's avaliable and feeling no shame or guilt afterwards, this needs to be stopped.

The only reason I can think you can justify piracy is if you owned a product and, due to company error or an accident, it's no longer functional. Examples would be trying to put in your old Diablo 2 disc, and it doesn't work. Since you've already been a consumer of the product, I feel there's nothing wrong with downloading a cracked version. I'll say it right now, I'm a former "Arr, I'll pirate every single one of ya!" pirate. Then the DRM started. I saw what people like me forced companies to do, and frankly I didn't want to be part of it. That's why I'm so against it: not only is it immoral and hurts companies, but it forces companies to focus more on shitty multiplayer (one of the only effective anti-pirate measures) and DRM and less on making a quality game.

[QUOTE=SuppliesAttack;32400094]The only reason I can think you can justify piracy is if you owned a product and, due to company error or an accident, it's no longer functional. Examples would be trying to put in your old Diablo 2 disc, and it doesn't work. Since you've already been a consumer of the product, I feel there's nothing wrong with downloading a cracked version. I'll say it right now, I'm a former "Arr, I'll pirate every single one of ya!" pirate. Then the DRM started. I saw what people like me forced companies to do, and frankly I didn't want to be part of it. That's why I'm so against it: not only is it immoral and hurts companies, but it forces companies to focus more on shitty multiplayer (one of the only effective anti-pirate measures) and DRM and less on making a quality game.[/QUOTE] Only bad games, or games whose developers have been shafted have shitty DRM. This DRM affects only the legitimate customers, and even without piracy it would still be there to try and control everything the person does with the product they rightfully own.

I'm sure most of us can agree that piracy is A-Ok.

[QUOTE=Legend286;32400138]Only bad games, or games whose developers have been shafted have shitty DRM. This DRM affects only the legitimate customers, and even without piracy it would still be there to try and control everything the person does with the product they rightfully own.[/QUOTE] Not true. DRM isn't limited to disc-checks or programs like SecuROM. Take StarCraft 2, for instance. It has no LAN mode because if it did, pirates would use hamachi to bypass battle.net Loads of games have been ports to PC, simply because developers don't want to go the extra mile for something that'll just be pirated. COD4 was a great PC game, but heavily pirated. So they made it impossible to play MW2 multiplayer on pirated versions. Both communities were upset. A potentially good game was ruined by a port job (admit it, MW2 wouldn't have been as bad with mod support & free maps like COD4). If it wasn't for piracy, developers would put more effort into the PC versions of games. Why work extra for something that'll just be torrented?

[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;32400279]I'm sure most of us can agree that piracy is A-Ok.[/QUOTE] It only affects those who want it to affect them. Do you ever see valve complain about piracy? No, because it's not an issue. What about id software? Nope. [editline]21st September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=SuppliesAttack;32400451]Not true. DRM isn't limited to disc-checks or programs like SecuROM. Take StarCraft 2, for instance. It has no LAN mode because if it did, pirates would use hamachi to bypass battle.net Loads of games have been ports to PC, simply because developers don't want to go the extra mile for something that'll just be pirated. COD4 was a great PC game, but heavily pirated. So they made it impossible to play MW2 multiplayer on pirated versions. Both communities were upset. A potentially good game was ruined by a port job. If it wasn't for piracy, developers would put more effort into the PC versions of games. Why work extra for something that'll just be torrented?[/QUOTE] If no-one bought the games, sure. But most of the time the majority of people playing a game actually bought it. And "impossible" to play MW2 multiplayer on pirated versions? Are you having a laugh or what? MW2 was destined to be a shitty clone as soon as they announced it thanks to Activision greed, so nothing of value was lost. If it was because of piracy, why is it the game is no different on the consoles? Are you forgetting piracy is also existent on there anyway?

[QUOTE=Legend286;32400466]It only affects those who want it to affect them. Do you ever see valve complain about piracy? No, because it's not an issue. What about id software? Nope. [editline]21st September 2011[/editline] If no-one bought the games, sure. But most of the time the majority of people playing a game actually bought it. And "impossible" to play MW2 multiplayer on pirated versions? Are you having a laugh or what? MW2 was destined to be a shitty clone as soon as they announced it thanks to Activision greed, so nothing of value was lost. If it was because of piracy, why is it the game is no different on the consoles? Are you forgetting piracy is also existent on there anyway?[/QUOTE] MW2 was the same on consoles because it was developed for consoles. It was a straight port job to PC. With the inclusion of iw.net I'd say piracy definitely had an impact on MW2. And yes, there is piracy on consoles. However, it's safe to say that a higher percentage of PC gamers are pirates over console gamers. Piracy is a problem for both consoles and PC, however PC piracy is easier to do and has less risks than console piracy.

[QUOTE=SuppliesAttack;32400653]MW2 was the same on consoles because it was developed for consoles. It was a straight port job to PC. With the inclusion of iw.net I'd say piracy definitely had an impact on MW2. And yes, there is piracy on consoles. However, it's safe to say that a higher percentage of PC gamers are pirates over console gamers. Piracy is a problem for both consoles and PC, however PC piracy is easier to do and has less risks than console piracy.[/QUOTE] Well why would the game be any different on PC? It wasn't a bad port, why should they spend time making the pc version any better (other than graphics, which surprisingly do look better on the PC.) It's like saying they might as well just make a new game for angsty pc gamers who think they deserve better.

I think that when used for good reasons, it's fine. Such as me losing my copy of Battlezone II, and, after not finding a download on the internet, turned to Pirate Bay. I managed to find 3 Pages of downloads, and am enjoying one of the greatest old computer games of a time. Also, me and my brothers share a Minecraft account, and wanted to play together, but as it turns out connecting with the same client isn't officially supported. So what I did was simply get a Hacked client, which runs of default minecraft content (you still have to own minecraft) but lets you change your username, allowing all three of us to play together. (My other brother simply entered offline mode, making his username appear as "Player", also bypassing the system. Obviously, there can't be two of the same username, as we've discussed, so my hacked client was justified.)

Stealing is stealing, not gonna make excuses.

[QUOTE=NateDude;32400798]I think that when used for good reasons, it's fine. Such as me losing my copy of Battlezone II, and, after not finding a download on the internet, turned to Pirate Bay. I managed to find 3 Pages of downloads, and am enjoying one of the greatest old computer games of a time. Also, me and my brothers share a Minecraft account, and wanted to play together, but as it turns out connecting with the same client isn't officially supported. So what I did was simply get a Hacked client, which runs of default minecraft content (you still have to own minecraft) but lets you change your username, allowing all three of us to play together. (My other brother simply entered offline mode, making his username appear as "Player", also bypassing the system. Obviously, there can't be two of the same username, as we've discussed, so my hacked client was justified.)[/QUOTE] Couldn't agree more. Though I expect some idiot will come in here and try and educate us all as to why piracy is stealing and how everyone will get put in jail and we should all feel bad. The whole concept of copyright "theft" is pretty flawed, obviously it's only in place to keep the rich rich and the poor fucked over more by the government. Maybe that's just our government though...

I don't really feel like torrenting games when there are more [URL="http://store.steampowered.com/"]convenient legal ways[/URL].

[QUOTE=Swilly;32400849]Stealing is stealing, not gonna make excuses.[/QUOTE] Stealing is when you are taking something from someone else. Piracy isn't stealing because you aren't taking anything, you're replicating it. If there was a device to "copy" any object, would anyone REALLY loose out? Sure it could be abused, but I don't think matter replication will happen for a long time yet anyway.

[QUOTE=Zedicus Mann;32400921]I don't really feel like torrenting games when there are more [URL="http://store.steampowered.com/"]convenient legal ways[/URL].[/QUOTE] Would rate winner

[QUOTE=Zedicus Mann;32400921]I don't really feel like torrenting games when there are more [URL="http://store.steampowered.com/"]convenient legal ways[/URL].[/QUOTE] I don't pirate games either, but I still think that people trying to pull the whole "it's illegal and stealing" shit are just as bad as the idiots who came up with the whole copyright system in the first place. Automerge was broken twice. :(

[QUOTE=Legend286;32400786]Well why would the game be any different on PC? It wasn't a bad port, why should they spend time making the pc version any better (other than graphics, which surprisingly do look better on the PC.) It's like saying they might as well just make a new game for angsty pc gamers who think they deserve better.[/QUOTE] Seeing as though the COD4 engine already supports connecting to dedicated servers and supports mods, they had to intentionally take it out for MW2. And of course graphics are going to look better on PC: just use the same xbox textures and flip a variable to turn down LOD scaling. [QUOTE]angsty pc gamers who think they deserve better[/QUOTE] Oh no, we deserve what we get. After all, many of us don't even pay for our games. Sucks for those who do, but hey, we're the ones pirating games to protest anti piracy measures, right? [QUOTE]I don't pirate games either, but I still think that people trying to pull the whole "it's illegal and stealing" shit are just as bad as the idiots who came up with the whole copyright system in the first place. [/QUOTE] I know, right? People working on their ideas to make a profit. Fucking morons.

[QUOTE=Legend286;32400930]Stealing is when you are taking something from someone else. Piracy isn't stealing because you aren't taking anything, you're replicating it. If there was a device to "copy" any object, would anyone REALLY loose out? Sure it could be abused, but I don't think matter replication will happen for a long time yet anyway.[/QUOTE] You aren't taking something away but you are taking something that isn't rightfully yours, ergo stealing.

I pirate games and then wait til they're on sale on steam to buy them.

I'd pirate less games if developers made more demos for PC. I understand the argument against it, but the developers are choosing more people pirating over more people cracking/modding their demos.

[QUOTE=Legend286;32400948]I don't pirate games either, but I still think that people trying to pull the whole "it's illegal and stealing" shit are just as bad as the idiots who came up with the whole copyright system in the first place. Automerge was broken twice. :([/QUOTE] You're saying the copyright system is stupid? Why the fuck would someone make something if he/she can't make money out of it? Without copyright, without the protection of ones intellectual property there would be no incentive to make anything as someone would just copy it and make it theirselfs.

[QUOTE=Legend286;32400930]Stealing is when you are taking something from someone else. Piracy isn't stealing because you aren't taking anything, you're replicating it. If there was a device to "copy" any object, would anyone REALLY loose out? Sure it could be abused, but I don't think matter replication will happen for a long time yet anyway.[/QUOTE] Dude, that argument has been debunked because you're over simplifying things.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;32400954]You aren't taking something away but you are taking something that isn't rightfully yours, ergo stealing.[/QUOTE] Copyright infringement is not theft though. You can try and pretend that it is, but it isn't. I'm not saying people should download everything just because they can, but they certainly shouldn't be getting in trouble for it. I'm not going to be buying Modern Warfare 3, but in my opinion it's also not worth my time (whether playing it at a friends, or illegitimately obtaining it) but that doesn't mean I couldn't. No-one would be loosing anything because I'm not buying it anyway. [editline]21st September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers2;32400991]You're saying the copyright system is stupid? Why the fuck would someone make something if he/she can't make money out of it? Without copyright, without the protection of ones intellectual property there would be no incentive to make anything as someone would just copy it and make it theirselfs.[/QUOTE] The current system is complete shit, sure creativity should be rewarded but fair usage should also be a part of that.

[QUOTE=Legend286;32401082]Copyright infringement is not theft though. You can try and pretend that it is, but it isn't. I'm not saying people should download everything just because they can, but they certainly shouldn't be getting in trouble for it. I'm not going to be buying Modern Warfare 3, but in my opinion it's also not worth my time (whether playing it at a friends, or illegitimately obtaining it) but that doesn't mean I couldn't. No-one would be loosing anything because I'm not buying it anyway. [editline]21st September 2011[/editline] The current system is complete shit, sure creativity should be rewarded but fair usage should also be a part of that.[/QUOTE] Copyright infringement is in fact theft. I'm not talking about lost sales here like the idiotic publishers constantly are either. Taking something that isn't yours is theft, no way around that, it simply is. I'm not even against piracy, but you simply cannot justify pirating something, you can't. What people need to understand is that the only thing you can do is either not pirate, or do it and just say fuck it I do it because I want to. Anyone trying to come up with lame excuses as to why it shouldn't be illegal, or is not morally wrong is far worse than the publishers sueing for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;32401138]Copyright infringement is in fact theft. I'm not talking about lost sales here like the idiotic publishers constantly are either. Taking something that isn't yours is theft, no way around that, it simply is.[/QUOTE] But you're not taking anything, you're replicating it. Creating a new version for yourself.

[QUOTE=Legend286;32401164]But you're not taking anything, you're replicating it. Creating a new version for yourself.[/QUOTE] That's just blatantly stupid, if anything it's copying not replicating.