Pirating and other illegal free options through the internet - General

[QUOTE=Legend286;32401164]But you're not taking anything, you're replicating it. Creating a new version for yourself.[/QUOTE] That would be like taking an M4 Assault rifle fresh off the manufacturing line before it was imprinted with a serial number on it :v: Seriously, that replication ergo not theft doesn't work.

I agree it's not technically theft, but to say it doesn't hurt the company or individual who created the original is incorrect.

[QUOTE=SuppliesAttack;32401230]I agree it's not technically theft, but to say it doesn't hurt the company or individual who created the original is incorrect.[/QUOTE] Just look at indie developers....

[QUOTE=SuppliesAttack;32401230]I agree it's not technically theft, but to say it doesn't hurt the company or individual who created the original is incorrect.[/QUOTE] I would argue the opposite, it is technically theft, but to say it does hurt the company on as large a scale as they portrait it is ridiculous.

Think of it like this; You own a car, a nice expensive one too. When you wake up in the morning, you expect your car to still be in your driveway/garage/etc. But one morning, your car is not there. Your car has been [B]stolen[/B], someone took something that you owned, and you no longer have it. But let's say that instead of stealing your car, the person made a copy of your luxury car, for free, for their own use. Does someone having a copy of something you own affect you in any way? [B]No.[/B] With things pirate-able online, such as music/programs/movies, pirating it is copying it. You aren't taking a physical copy of it from a store, all you did was copy someones copy. Hey, maybe if you [B]enjoyed[/B] what you pirated, you may do the moral thing to do and support the developer by purchasing the product. Pirating is [B]copying[/B]. Stealing is [B]taking[/B]. There is a difference.

I think piracy is great. (Jumping away from gaming and piracy here) In the case of piracy, it allows anyone to try something out that they would otherwise never really try. My friend is highly into video editing and 3d modelling and things like that, which the professional suite costs literally thousands of dollars. Of course he doesn't have the money to pay for that, but downloading it gives him more reason in the future to buy it. Most things he uses do not have a demo (or they are extremely limited with functionality or usage time). Everything he does is non-commercial and private, so the companies behind the software couldn't argue that he's making a profit from their works. Eventually he will probably go work for a company or himself where he DOES use a legitimate copy. In many cases piracy allows people to use software they previously couldn't, thus bringing in future revenue for the company if the user was interested in pursuing a career or even as a hobby.

[QUOTE=Diealready;32401452]Think of it like this; You own a car, a nice expensive one too. When you wake up in the morning, you expect your car to still be in your driveway/garage/etc. But one morning, your car is not there. Your car has been [B]stolen[/B], someone took something that you owned, and you no longer have it. But let's say that instead of stealing your car, the person made a copy of your luxury car, for free, for their own use. Does someone having a copy of something you own affect you in any way? [B]No.[/B] With things pirate-able online, such as music/programs/movies, pirating it is copying it. You aren't taking a physical copy of it from a store, all you did was copy someones copy. Hey, maybe if you [B]enjoyed[/B] what you pirated, you may do the moral thing to do and support the developer by purchasing the product. Pirating is [B]copying[/B]. Stealing is [B]taking[/B]. There is a difference.[/QUOTE] You're forgetting one thing, someone designed that luxury car and has the rights to that design, you infringed on the rights of the designer of that car by copying it.

[QUOTE=Jacinth;32401472]I think piracy is great. (Jumping away from gaming and piracy here) In the case of piracy, it allows anyone to try something out that they would otherwise never really try. My friend is highly into video editing and 3d modelling and things like that, which the professional suite costs literally thousands of dollars. Of course he doesn't have the money to pay for that, but downloading it gives him more reason in the future to buy it. Most things he uses do not have a demo (or they are extremely limited with functionality or usage time). Everything he does is non-commercial and private, so the companies behind the software couldn't argue that he's making a profit from their works. Eventually he will probably go work for a company or himself where he DOES use a legitimate copy. In many cases piracy allows people to use software they previously couldn't, thus bringing in future revenue for the company if the user was interested in pursuing a career or even as a hobby.[/QUOTE] Honestly the pricing on professional software is ludicrous. If I understand correctly, companies that make software like that don't even make much money off of individuals. There's actually an expectation that individuals will pirate and get familiar with a particular piece of software, so that when they go to work with a company and are asked what they're proficient with they'll say they like to use that software and the company will buy it legally.

Piracy is fine if: - You fully intend on buying the game later, even before you go to your favorite torrent site. - You legally own the game, but your copy is unusable (lost or damaged disc, rape DRM, things like that) - You only intend to try the game out, and it has no demo available. Piracy is [b]not[/b] fine, but will be forgiven by some if: - The primary producer is an evil company. - You torrent music, but you purchase band merchandise and/or go to concerts. Piracy is [b]not[/b] fine and will [b]not[/b] be forgiven if: - You torrent music and do not purchase merchandise or go to concerts, and you have no intention of doing so. - You're only torrenting because you're a greedy fuck. Doubly unforgiven if you actually can afford the money to pay for it (and it does not fit any of the criteria in the above categories). [editline]20th September 2011[/editline] note this is not intended to be a summary of FP's opinion, just the way I've seen things from my experience

[QUOTE=Jacinth;32401472]I think piracy is great. (Jumping away from gaming and piracy here) In the case of piracy, it allows anyone to try something out that they would otherwise never really try. My friend is highly into video editing and 3d modelling and things like that, which the professional suite costs literally thousands of dollars. Of course he doesn't have the money to pay for that, but downloading it gives him more reason in the future to buy it. Most things he uses do not have a demo (or they are extremely limited with functionality or usage time). Everything he does is non-commercial and private, so the companies behind the software couldn't argue that he's making a profit from their works. Eventually he will probably go work for a company or himself where he DOES use a legitimate copy. In many cases piracy allows people to use software they previously couldn't, thus bringing in future revenue for the company if the user was interested in pursuing a career or even as a hobby.[/QUOTE] You people always go back to profits while that really isn't the issue here at all. Rights are infringed when pirating something, whether the rights owner lost money trough sales, or the pirate gained money from it is has nothing at all to do with it. [editline]21st September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=froztshock;32401522]Honestly the pricing on professional software is ludicrous. If I understand correctly, companies that make software like that don't even make much money off of individuals. There's actually an expectation that individuals will pirate and get familiar with a particular piece of software, so that when they go to work with a company and are asked what they're proficient with they'll say they like to use that software and the company will buy it legally.[/QUOTE] Actually most are given away for free to students by the companies themselfs.

[QUOTE=Diealready;32401452]Think of it like this; You own a car, a nice expensive one too. When you wake up in the morning, you expect your car to still be in your driveway/garage/etc. But one morning, your car is not there. Your car has been [B]stolen[/B], someone took something that you owned, and you no longer have it. But let's say that instead of stealing your car, the person made a copy of your luxury car, for free, for their own use. Does someone having a copy of something you own affect you in any way? [B]No.[/B] With things pirate-able online, such as music/programs/movies, pirating it is copying it. You aren't taking a physical copy of it from a store, all you did was copy someones copy. Hey, maybe if you [B]enjoyed[/B] what you pirated, you may do the moral thing to do and support the developer by purchasing the product. Pirating is [B]copying[/B]. Stealing is [B]taking[/B]. There is a difference.[/QUOTE] no, there isn't there is a difference between data and a tangible object the company both sell you these for you to use them, but the difference is that copying data takes the click of a mouse, while copying a tangible object would take materials, time, effort, and it'd hardly be worth it in the long run. I mean seriously, have you ever heard of someone copying a tangible object for personal profit? no, it's no economical at all. when it is economical, they call it counterfeit and that is also unethical. regardless, if you're making someone lose money by whatever means, it's best to just assume you're doing the wrong thing and back off

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;32401561]You people always go back to profits while that really isn't the issue here at all. Rights are infringed when pirating something, whether the rights owner lost money trough sales, or the pirate gained money from it is has nothing at all to do with it. [/QUOTE] What? If companies didn't care about money then piracy would be a-okay for everyone. It's all about money.

[QUOTE=Jacinth;32401784]What? If companies didn't care about money then piracy would be a-okay for everyone. It's all about money.[/QUOTE] No, it's about the protection of intellectual property. It's the companies abusing that protection for their own gains.

If you wanted to test out a car, but the dealer didn't offer the service, would you steal the car and drive it around but bring it back if you don't like it? Same thing here.

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32402114]If you wanted to test out a car, but the dealer didn't offer the service, would you steal the car and drive it around but bring it back if you don't like it? Same thing here.[/QUOTE]no, I'd go to another dealer

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32402114]If you wanted to test out a car, but the dealer didn't offer the service, would you steal the car and drive it around but bring it back if you don't like it? Same thing here.[/QUOTE] Uh, no it's not. You've taken the care from the company, they can no longer sell it to someone, they've lost money because they need to replace the car you've stolen. For piracy, you've taken a copy. It causes no financial loss to the company other than that they did not make any money from you. I'm not condoning piracy though, while you're not stealing from the company you're denying them sales they should have had.

I'm only okay with pirating music. I myself am a musician, and piracy has done far more to help the industry than to hinder it.

[QUOTE=Yumyumbublegum;32402273]Uh, no it's not. You've taken the care from the company, they can no longer sell it to someone, they've lost money because they need to replace the car you've stolen. For piracy, you've taken a copy. It causes no financial loss to the company other than that they did not make any money from you. I'm not condoning piracy though, while you're not stealing from the company you're denying them sales they should have had.[/QUOTE] Stealing is taking something without consent. Just because the original owner still has a copy does not make it something other than theft. And the idea that piracy does not cause any loss of profit is a bit absurd. It is just like how a company loses sales if their competitor sells the same wares for cheaper except now the competitor is not only selling them for cheaper but giving it away for free. [editline]21st September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Jacinth;32401784]What? If companies didn't care about money then piracy would be a-okay for everyone. It's all about money.[/QUOTE] Shouldn't artists, creators and developers be expected to be paid for their work? Should all movies, music and games simply be made as hobbies and any money given for them be charity?

The argument over piracy seems to always boil down to the pirates bringing up their own definition for what piracy is, and then using false logic to say why it's ok to pirate because you managed to defeat the semantics of your definition [editline]21st September 2011[/editline] And basically implying that there isn't such a thing as a study of economics because the idea of potential profits and income don't exist :)

[QUOTE=lavacano;32401526] Piracy is [b]not[/b] fine and will [b]not[/b] be forgiven if: - You're only torrenting because you're a greedy fuck. Doubly unforgiven if you actually can afford the money to pay for it (and it does not fit any of the criteria in the above categories).[/QUOTE] Sums up my friends. They have jobs, yet they don't actually buy games or movies.

it annoys me that piracy has become such a two sided debate when really there are a lot of different ethical groups that a pirate might fall under personally i'll pirate a game once in a while if i'm skeptical about spending $60 on a game that might be utter horseshit (HOMEFRONT), which i think is perfectly reasonable considering the ratio of shit to shine in the current PC game market. but when i come across a game that i do enjoy and that i do appreciate, even if i know that after making the purchase i won't receive any extra benefits and i won't even have the urge to play it anymore, i [b]buy the game.[/b] in the end, the thing that annoys me is people justifying piracy, just plain old "i'm taking this because i can" piracy. there is no way to truly defend piracy because in the end it is harmful if you don't make the sale, but i'm still extremely pro-piracy for two important reasons: 1. if you're the kind of pirate that likes to shop for free before dedicating yourself to a $60 purchase on a game with no demo, there is no issue. if you are able to be self-controlling and somewhat moral and bring yourself to purchase a game that you enjoyed without paying for, there is no harm done whatsoever. 2. if you're the kind of cunt that pirates things and gets them for free [i]just because you can[/i], chances are you're a highschooler with no money and you weren't going to buy the thing anyway. so rather than just not buying the game, maybe you enjoyed it and you'll inadvertently have yourself another word of mouth marketer telling his friends how great it is. in the end i think that the effects of piracy are greatly exaggerated by the people who are lobbying to push regulation onto you and decide what you can and cannot do with your bandwidth, [b]but[/b] there is no denying that, no matter how insignificant, there is no justification for not making the purchase, assuming you enjoy the product.

Sadly there is no middle ground. Because asshole anti-piracy groups decide to bunch all pirates into a single category, I'd give you an example but it appears the MPAA funded NZFACT site is down. Funny that. But yeah all the info pages there pretty much say pirates are violent, drug dealer thieves. I doubt either side really cares who the opposition is, they're opposition.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;32406049]1. if you're the kind of pirate that likes to shop for free before dedicating yourself to a $60 purchase on a game with no demo, there is no issue. if you are able to be self-controlling and somewhat moral and bring yourself to purchase a game that you enjoyed without paying for, there is no harm done whatsoever.[/QUOTE] As much as I want to agree with this, it's still wrong. If you think something might be shit, get some reviews or other people's opinion on it. It's not essential that you play it so if you don't think it'll be worth it, you can't have your cake and eat it too, figure out if you want it or not. There's plenty of crap games you never have to play so it's not going to hurt you if you don't play it at all. It is a better position and it's one that I support, but it's still piracy and still wrong in a lot of ways.

I didn't read the thread since I have to leave in about 30 minutes, but here's my view on the whole thing. Pirating games has become very common in the past few years. I think that this is primarily the game maker's fault. They've gotten greedy. Some won't remember this, but many, many years ago, PC games were dirt cheap. I'm talking $5 for a game that'd run on a DOS computer. This is back when floppy disks were actually floppy, by the way. The graphics were shit, but still. No form of DRM or anything. Along came windows 95 and its games. Considerably better graphics, but still the games weren't that bad in price. The price'd gone up to between $10 and $20 dollars. A brand new PS1 game was $29.99. No form of DRM in the PC games. Could install the games however many times you wanted. That's when the game companies realized that they could make more money by limiting how many installs a program could have and by adding DRM and such. When the companies decided to do that, that's when stuff went down the shitter. Innocent people don't like being punished. It pisses them off. "I bought X, but the game is broke and I can't play it because of its DRM" or "I want x game but I can't play it because I don't have a stable internet connection". In their frustration, they turn to the holy (unholy to some) grail of getting games: piracy. Sure. Some will just pirate because they can. Others do it because a game isn't available in their country, not made anymore, or the retail version is broken. It's kind of a backwards form of thinking from the game companies. "I want you to spend $60 for this totally awesome game. Except you can only install it on one computer, you have to always be online to play it, and you have to wear a pink shirt." So you want us to pay more for lots of restrictions? That makes total sense.. Then comes to issue of the numbers that they game companies spew. "We've lost x million dollars due to pirates stealing x game!" Do they really have a method of knowing how many people have downloaded something? Or are they just pulling shit out of thin air? Perhaps the less than projected gain amounts are due to the game not having much interest. Of course, then there's the issue of the lawsuits. I really doubt that the lawyer fees accumulated while suing some kid is less than the amount of money they squeeze out of said kid. The companies always claim that the pirates are damaging their company and they're losing more and more money....Yet each year the profits go up. In the end, it's an interesting debate. Both parties are at fault. The game companies for getting greedy, and us gamers for allowing the companies to fuck us over.

[QUOTE=Raptor_Girl;32407265]I didn't read the thread since I have to leave in about 30 minutes, but here's my view on the whole thing. Pirating games has become very common in the past few years. I think that this is primarily the game maker's fault. They've gotten greedy. Some won't remember this, but many, many years ago, PC games were dirt cheap. I'm talking $5 for a game that'd run on a DOS computer. This is back when floppy disks were actually floppy, by the way. The graphics were shit, but still. No form of DRM or anything. Along came windows 95 and its games. Considerably better graphics, but still the games weren't that bad in price. The price'd gone up to between $10 and $20 dollars. A brand new PS1 game was $29.99. No form of DRM in the PC games. Could install the games however many times you wanted. That's when the game companies realized that they could make more money by limiting how many installs a program could have and by adding DRM and such. When the companies decided to do that, that's when stuff went down the shitter. Innocent people don't like being punished. It pisses them off. "I bought X, but the game is broke and I can't play it because of its DRM" or "I want x game but I can't play it because I don't have a stable internet connection". In their frustration, they turn to the holy (unholy to some) grail of getting games: piracy. Sure. Some will just pirate because they can. Others do it because a game isn't available in their country, not made anymore, or the retail version is broken. It's kind of a backwards form of thinking from the game companies. "I want you to spend $60 for this totally awesome game. Except you can only install it on one computer, you have to always be online to play it, and you have to wear a pink shirt." So you want us to pay more for lots of restrictions? That makes total sense.. Then comes to issue of the numbers that they game companies spew. "We've lost x million dollars due to pirates stealing x game!" Do they really have a method of knowing how many people have downloaded something? Or are they just pulling shit out of thin air? Perhaps the less than projected gain amounts are due to the game not having much interest. Of course, then there's the issue of the lawsuits. I really doubt that the lawyer fees accumulated while suing some kid is less than the amount of money they squeeze out of said kid. The companies always claim that the pirates are damaging their company and they're losing more and more money....Yet each year the profits go up. In the end, it's an interesting debate. Both parties are at fault. The game companies for getting greedy, and us gamers for allowing the companies to fuck us over.[/QUOTE] Do you suggest that companies try and sell games at $5 a pop again? You realise that now game companies are much bigger and need to pay for many more staff. The work that goes into making them has increased dramatically. While the tools to make games has gotten better, the expectations to keep up with the latest console and up the graphics means that big company games still need to work hard to catch up. And don't forget inflation making things more expensive. You're paying more because you're getting more. Since I live in a country where stores have a seemingly arbitary mark up of 50% on game prices, I think that $60 is a fair enough price. I don't think that the kinds of anti-piracy techniques that companies are employing are for the better. They should be making people want to pay for their product and this seems to have an opposite effect. And games aside, how do you explain piracy for movies and other media?

[QUOTE=Diealready;32401452]Think of it like this; You own a car, a nice expensive one too. When you wake up in the morning, you expect your car to still be in your driveway/garage/etc. But one morning, your car is not there. Your car has been [B]stolen[/B], someone took something that you owned, and you no longer have it. But let's say that instead of stealing your car, the person made a copy of your luxury car, for free, for their own use. Does someone having a copy of something you own affect you in any way? [B]No.[/B] [/QUOTE] No, but it hurts the creator of the car. Instead of getting more money because of you buying that car, they won't get it at all. The same can be said about pirating a game. You don't hurt people directly, but you hurt the developers by not giving them money.

I've pirated a few new games to try them out, then bought them if I enjoyed it. Almost every game doesn't have a demo these days, and I've had some pretty bad experiences with games I bought that turned out to be really really terrible. Yeah, yeah, I know demos cost money, but if you aren't going to make the effort to show me something about a game other than pre-rendered footage and lame multiplayer deathmatch gameplay, you can deal with me stealing your game to try it out and see if I want to buy it or not.

Why don't people just rent the game? It's just a few bucks from Blockbuster or no Gamefly (now even Netflix). That way you can test the game and return it if you don't like it.

[QUOTE=DarkendSky;32407805]I've pirated a few new games to try them out, then bought them if I enjoyed it. Almost every game doesn't have a demo these days, and I've had some pretty bad experiences with games I bought that turned out to be really really terrible. Yeah, yeah, I know demos cost money, but if you aren't going to make the effort to show me something about a game other than pre-rendered footage and lame multiplayer deathmatch gameplay, you can deal with me stealing your game to try it out and see if I want to buy it or not.[/QUOTE] Yeah.. I've had games where I said "fuck no, not buying that shit", still pirated it, but then I bought it because the game was actually good. However, I've also had games that I impulse bought that turned out to be shit.. That's why I hate buying a game before trying it first, and demos are usually just too short to test the game.

[QUOTE=Raptor_Girl;32407265] In the end, it's an interesting debate. Both parties are at fault. The game companies for getting greedy, and us gamers for allowing the companies to fuck us over.[/QUOTE] yeah damn companies getting greedy for not making those games with one nerd in the basement for one week. oh yeah there still are indie games, but as 95% of them are utter shit, nobody really buys that 95%.