• Half in the Bag Episode 100: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
    130 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;49397103]That's why I appreciate the fact that in TFA, [sp]Han and Leia had been together but split up at some point. Realistically, you know that's what was bound to have happened between them. [/sp][/QUOTE] that's exactly what I meant
[QUOTE=Magikoopa24;49400056]To be fair, that was what Luke was in A New Hope- somehow instantly knows lightsaber fighting, turrets and xwing piloting and destroys the death star in a single run. It took another movie to have him show weakness, which is what i feel Rey will go through as well.[/QUOTE] As someone who marathoned all the movies before TFA came out, Luke did dick-all with a lightsaber in New Hope, all he really did was get it and swing it around at a practice droid. As for piloting he did that constantly back on Tatooine, which would explain his understanding of everything else you listed, they even state that he's used to hitting small targets in one of the fighters he used to fly. The force bit was more there for the magic and mystery, and implied he was relying on his own skill and emotion rather than a computer. All I know about Rei is that she climbed around in wrecks for her whole life till now and most of the time when someone asks [i]"How did you do that?"[/i] her response is usually [i]"I-I don't know, I just -felt- it"[/i] or something along those lines.
There's the implications that [sp]Rey may be a mind-wiped remainder of Luke's students that got slaughtered, given the memories we see when she touches Luke's lightsaber.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Magikoopa24;49400056]To be fair, that was what Luke was in A New Hope- somehow instantly knows lightsaber fighting, turrets and xwing piloting and destroys the death star in a single run. It took another movie to have him show weakness, which is what i feel Rey will go through as well.[/QUOTE] Luke doesn't do any lightsaber fighting in A New Hope, he get's trained for a little bit (and sucks), but no fighting. The turrets and piloting comes from the his Skyhopper back on Tantooine, which is mentioned in the movies. Rei doesn't have a piloting background. The Death Star run is Luke's only assistance from the Force in ANH, where as Rei can successfully block a trained Force user, Jedi Mind Trick, and recall objects, Luke couldn't even do that till halfway through the second, and he still got wrecked.
[QUOTE=DuCT;49400022]She has no flaws whatsoever, and excels at everything she does.[/QUOTE] Except for [sp]Her freaking the fuck out and running which gets her captured and ends up with her mind being read by Kylo. Also the part where she is insistent on going back to Jakku and doing nothing[/sp]
[QUOTE=Destroyox;49400501]Except for [sp]Her freaking the fuck out and running which gets her captured and ends up with her mind being read by Kylo. Also the part where she is insistent on going back to Jakku and doing nothing[/sp][/QUOTE] Except [sp]She doesn't get her mind read, she resists it then reverse mind reads Rylo Ken[/sp]
[QUOTE=Alrækinn;49400557]Except [sp]She doesn't get her mind read, she resists it then reverse mind reads Rylo Ken[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]That was Kylo being a dumbass and assuming he got the map piece from her. If he kept going he probably would've gotten the real thing[/sp]
[QUOTE=Destroyox;49400588][sp]That was Kylo being a dumbass and assuming he got the map piece from her. If he kept going he probably would've gotten the real thing[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]Kylo didn't think he got the map piece from her. He freaked out and left when she managed to look into his mind.[/sp]
[QUOTE=DuCT;49400306]Luke doesn't do any lightsaber fighting in A New Hope, he get's trained for a little bit (and sucks), but no fighting. The turrets and piloting comes from the his Skyhopper back on Tantooine, which is mentioned in the movies. Rei doesn't have a piloting background. The Death Star run is Luke's only assistance from the Force in ANH, where as Rei can successfully block a trained Force user, Jedi Mind Trick, and recall objects, Luke couldn't even do that till halfway through the second, and he still got wrecked.[/QUOTE] I got the vibe that [sp] Rey is a special kind of prodigy with the force. and while that's a totally fine concept it makes for a kind of boring main character. Someone like that would be better suited as an enemy or support character that only shows up sometimes or is talked about. Which is too bad because the actor who played Rey was fucking perfect, especially for a someone with limited experience in film and television, it was really impressive actually.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Alrækinn;49400206]As someone who marathoned all the movies before TFA came out, Luke did dick-all with a lightsaber in New Hope, all he really did was get it and swing it around at a practice droid. As for piloting he did that constantly back on Tatooine, which would explain his understanding of everything else you listed, they even state that he's used to hitting small targets in one of the fighters he used to fly. The force bit was more there for the magic and mystery, and implied he was relying on his own skill and emotion rather than a computer. All I know about Rei is that she climbed around in wrecks for her whole life till now and most of the time when someone asks [i]"How did you do that?"[/i] her response is usually [i]"I-I don't know, I just -felt- it"[/i] or something along those lines.[/QUOTE] infact, the skyhopper was noted to have the same exact controls as the X-wing. That's why the rebels used the skyhoppers to teach recruits.
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;49400643]I got the vibe that [sp] Rey is a special kind of prodigy with the force, it's happened in the lore before and I've always wanted to see someone like that come to life in a movie. Even to me it comes off as lazy writing though... [/sp][/QUOTE] She could be, and that would be fine. They just did it in the most ham-handed way possible.
[QUOTE=DuCT;49400787]She could be, and that would be fine. They just did it in the most ham-handed way possible.[/QUOTE] I actually thought about it a bit more and changed my response entirely.
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;49400800]I actually thought about it a bit more and changed my response entirely.[/QUOTE] I agree with what you rewrote. It pushes into the Mary Sue territory, and I don;t want it to go that way, because like you said, the actor did a really good job acting. It's just that the character is written badly.
[QUOTE=DuCT;49400022]She has no flaws whatsoever, and excels at everything she does.[/QUOTE] I guess you were in the bathroom when she was shown to be distrustful of others, difficult to get along with, quick to anger, easily frightened, and desperate for companionship due to a deep seated sense of loneliness and abandonment.
[QUOTE=New Cidem;49400893]I guess you were in the bathroom when she was shown to be distrustful of others, difficult to get along with, quick to anger, easily frightened, and desperate for companionship due to a deep seated sense of loneliness and abandonment.[/QUOTE] This is going to fuck with her Jedi training badly and has to be something she needs to overcome and if that doesn't happen these writers don't know wtf they're doing.
[QUOTE=New Cidem;49400893]I guess you were in the bathroom when she was shown to be distrustful of others, difficult to get along with, quick to anger, easily frightened, and desperate for companionship due to a deep seated sense of loneliness and abandonment.[/QUOTE] shit, [sp]the only reason she overcame being scared about touching the skywalker lightsabre again was because fin was in trouble[/sp]
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;49401780]This is going to fuck with her Jedi training badly and has to be something she needs to overcome and if that doesn't happen these writers don't know wtf they're doing.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=codemaster85;49402336]shit, [sp]the only reason she overcame being scared about touching the skywalker lightsabre again was because fin was in trouble[/sp][/QUOTE] Yes, exactly. They're laying the pieces for future conflict and character development. I mean, when people complain about Rey, what are they looking for? A plot dump where the characters literally say "I have problems dealing with abandonment and it's hard for me to trust people." "Yes, I understand. I am plagued with self-doubt and a need for acceptance." "Let's go talk on couches for 30 minutes like in the prequels."
[QUOTE=New Cidem;49403214]Yes, exactly. They're laying the pieces for future conflict and character development. I mean, when people complain about Rey, what are they looking for? A plot dump where the characters literally say "I have problems dealing with abandonment and it's hard for me to trust people." "Yes, I understand. I am plagued with self-doubt and a need for acceptance." "Let's go talk on couches for 30 minutes like in the prequels."[/QUOTE] They're looking for a protagonist that feels less generic.
Personally I think there are few problems with both Finn and Rei with regards to their skills. [sp]Rei shouldn't be such a good shot. After all it was established that she basically had never touched a gun before; had they left that out it would've been fine (maybe she toyed around with weapons on Jakku, who knows?) when she turned out to be a much better shot than the storm troopers. Finn, on the other hand, shouldn't even have fought Kylo for half the time he did (to be fair it was a long fight scene in general), or else it should be established very clearly that Kylo is just toying with him. I can to some extent accept Rei using the force or whatever to intuitively know how to fight, but ehh. I don't accept the excuse that Kylo isn't fully trained yet or whatever, he should still be more skilled at fighting than them. And we see him do much more powerful things with the force than Luke, Vader or even Palpatine did in the OT - why does he only seem to use those powers once in the fight? Honestly I think they should have mirrored ANH differently - let the starkiller base persist and let them lose the fight againt Kylo (but maybe they got kinda close and scared him? That would play well into his character, but still make sense). Really these are fairly minor gripes, but it seems like they were a bit too eager to have neat lightsaber scene instead of something that makes sense. Also while everyone is raving about the stormtrooper witt the oversized baton: it was stupid and shouldn't have been in the movie. And if he could basically beat Finn I supposed he could've beaten Kylo Ren as well? Kylo Ren doesn't seem all that powerful anymore...[/sp]
I feel like if anyone says something bad about this movie they instantly get berated that they're just trying to 'stand out' or that they're 'just hating on the amazing movie for the sake of hating on it'. The movie was good, I agree but, come on. At this point it's like immune to any critique.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;49404550]Personally I think there are few problems with both Finn and Rei with regards to their skills. [sp]Rei shouldn't be such a good shot. After all it was established that she basically had never touched a gun before; had they left that out it would've been fine (maybe she toyed around with weapons on Jakku, who knows?) when she turned out to be a much better shot than the storm troopers. Finn, on the other hand, shouldn't even have fought Kylo for half the time he did (to be fair it was a long fight scene in general), or else it should be established very clearly that Kylo is just toying with him. I can to some extent accept Rei using the force or whatever to intuitively know how to fight, but ehh. I don't accept the excuse that Kylo isn't fully trained yet or whatever, he should still be more skilled at fighting than them. And we see him do much more powerful things with the force than Luke, Vader or even Palpatine did in the OT - why does he only seem to use those powers once in the fight? Honestly I think they should have mirrored ANH differently - let the starkiller base persist and let them lose the fight againt Kylo (but maybe they got kinda close and scared him? That would play well into his character, but still make sense). Really these are fairly minor gripes, but it seems like they were a bit too eager to have neat lightsaber scene instead of something that makes sense. Also while everyone is raving about the stormtrooper witt the oversized baton: it was stupid and shouldn't have been in the movie. And if he could basically beat Finn I supposed he could've beaten Kylo Ren as well? Kylo Ren doesn't seem all that powerful anymore...[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]Maybe Kylo really is just shitty at fighting? I mean from what I can remember, the only fights he straight up won in the movie were against a bunch of computer consoles and an old man who was just standing there unarmed.[/sp]
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;49404550]Personally I think there are few problems with both Finn and Rei with regards to their skills. [sp]Rei shouldn't be such a good shot. After all it was established that she basically had never touched a gun before; had they left that out it would've been fine (maybe she toyed around with weapons on Jakku, who knows?) when she turned out to be a much better shot than the storm troopers. Finn, on the other hand, shouldn't even have fought Kylo for half the time he did (to be fair it was a long fight scene in general), or else it should be established very clearly that Kylo is just toying with him. I can to some extent accept Rei using the force or whatever to intuitively know how to fight, but ehh. I don't accept the excuse that Kylo isn't fully trained yet or whatever, he should still be more skilled at fighting than them. And we see him do much more powerful things with the force than Luke, Vader or even Palpatine did in the OT - why does he only seem to use those powers once in the fight? Honestly I think they should have mirrored ANH differently - let the starkiller base persist and let them lose the fight againt Kylo (but maybe they got kinda close and scared him? That would play well into his character, but still make sense). Really these are fairly minor gripes, but it seems like they were a bit too eager to have neat lightsaber scene instead of something that makes sense. Also while everyone is raving about the stormtrooper witt the oversized baton: it was stupid and shouldn't have been in the movie. And if he could basically beat Finn I supposed he could've beaten Kylo Ren as well? Kylo Ren doesn't seem all that powerful anymore...[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]When I saw it, I was given the impression that Kylo was just playing with Finn. You could tell from Kylo's movements that he was just biding his time against Finn[/sp]
I feel like people are forgetting that Rey [sp]HAS had some kind of melee combat experience when they talk about how "it doesn't make sense that she's good with a lightsaber". Like did y'all forget she has a fucking polestaff at the beginning of the movie that she's likely had for years and knows how to use? It's not like she picked up a lightsaber with no prior knowledge of how to handle some kind of melee weapon[/sp]
[QUOTE=New Cidem;49403214]Yes, exactly. They're laying the pieces for future conflict and character development. I mean, when people complain about Rey, what are they looking for? A plot dump where the characters literally say "I have problems dealing with abandonment and it's hard for me to trust people." "Yes, I understand. I am plagued with self-doubt and a need for acceptance." "Let's go talk on couches for 30 minutes like in the prequels."[/QUOTE] The problem is that most of the flaws you listed in your prior post either existed for five minutes and moved past it [sp](I.E. "She's difficult to get along with" then Han offers her a full time position on the Millenium Falcon after knowing her for five minutes and she fixed one thing)[/sp]Or can be resolved pretty much at the flip of a switch [sp](I.E. she summons up the courage to fight Rylo Ken who she's been afraid of the whole movie at the end of the movie, despite having if I recall correctly like two actual encounters with him prior)[/sp] All the flaws you listed [i]were[/i] true, but they either disappear soon enough or aren't expanded upon enough to really be interesting. Her Character isn't intrinsically bad, but it just doesn't make for a good character to focus most of the movie on.
[QUOTE=Glitchman;49400042]Finn is a wah-wah who just wants to get laid[/QUOTE] I can relate more to that than Rey :v:
[QUOTE=Whatsinaname;49403621]They're looking for a protagonist that feels less generic.[/QUOTE] If Rey is generic then Luke in Episode 4 is generic because it's basically the same character again only with more development and characterization. These terms - "Mary Sue" "Generic" - people are throwing them out on forums and in reviews without even understanding what they mean. A generic protagonist would be shaved head action man who learns to overcome his enemies with determination. He becomes a Jedi, he saves the girl, the movie ends. Generic. A Mary Sue protagonist would never demonstrate any kind of weakness or character fault, constantly be praised by their peers, and end up saving the day against ridiculously impossible odds. Like Luke Skywalker before he was written as a character in Episode 5 and 6. If anything, Poe falls into this category. But even he feels more realistically written and is shown to fail at times. I have no reason to dislike the writing of Rey's character, not until somebody brings up a valid argument against her. "She's a mary sue!" "She's so generic!" "I don't want a woman main character!" are not valid complaints. Anything people have suggested so far are misinformed, weren't paying attention, couldn't read the subtext, or have an outside bias. My only complaints with the movie's writing were the unclear logistics surrounding[sp]Starkiller Base[/sp]which might even be touched upon in the next movies anyways. [editline]28th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Alrækinn;49405433]The problem is that most of the flaws you listed in your prior post either existed for five minutes and moved past it [sp](I.E. "She's difficult to get along with" then Han offers her a full time position on the Millenium Falcon after knowing her for five minutes and she fixed one thing)[/sp]Or can be resolved pretty much at the flip of a switch [sp](I.E. she summons up the courage to fight Rylo Ken who she's been afraid of the whole movie at the end of the movie, despite having if I recall correctly like two actual encounters with him prior)[/sp] All the flaws you listed [i]were[/i] true, but they either disappear soon enough or aren't expanded upon enough to really be interesting. Her Character isn't intrinsically bad, but it doesn't make for a good character to focus most of the movie on.[/QUOTE] [sp]I think the implication was that Han is aware of her past and has a bias towards hiring her. Additionally, she only had the courage to fight Kylo because the catalyst for her involvement in the plot was severely wounded, this is clearly a sign that she has gotten over her open distrust and her crippling fear of Kylo in one scene.[/sp]I'd call that enjoyable character development. Besides, there's not a lot of time that can be spent elaborating on how each character feels about things between scenes. The movie already seemed to barely squeeze all the necessary plot events in, I can't imagine them continuing to put more in. Regardless, I was satisfied by Rey's inclusion in the story when I am usually immediately put off by how most women are written in movies and games. I think they did an excellent job in this movie and I wholly welcome the return of her character next time around.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;49404550]Personally I think there are few problems with both Finn and Rei with regards to their skills. [sp]Rei shouldn't be such a good shot. After all it was established that she basically had never touched a gun before; had they left that out it would've been fine (maybe she toyed around with weapons on Jakku, who knows?) when she turned out to be a much better shot than the storm troopers. Finn, on the other hand, shouldn't even have fought Kylo for half the time he did (to be fair it was a long fight scene in general), or else it should be established very clearly that Kylo is just toying with him. I can to some extent accept Rei using the force or whatever to intuitively know how to fight, but ehh. I don't accept the excuse that Kylo isn't fully trained yet or whatever, he should still be more skilled at fighting than them. And we see him do much more powerful things with the force than Luke, Vader or even Palpatine did in the OT - why does he only seem to use those powers once in the fight? Also while everyone is raving about the stormtrooper witt the oversized baton: it was stupid and shouldn't have been in the movie. And if he could basically beat Finn I supposed he could've beaten Kylo Ren as well? Kylo Ren doesn't seem all that powerful anymore...[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]but Rey shot and hit like... what, 2 people? maybe a couple more in the thermal oscillator? She didn't adopt a blaster and turn into a crack shot. Hell, her first kill took not only several seconds to realize "fuck the safety is on" and then another couple of shots to actually hit the dude, which she didn't even expect to be able to do. Then she shot a few more times, maybe hit another dude, and bugged the hell out. And later, maybe she hit a couple more people after firing madly in anger. Maybe. Not really a crack shot. Finn on the other hand was quite capable with a blaster considering his history as a stormtrooper. Seems to have become much more capable after losing the armor. :v: As for tr-8r, that guy was well trained in baton combat, and while Finn had extensive combat training, he didn't have nearly as much close quarters training as tr-8r. People don't seem to realize that [I]both[/I] engagements Finn was in with his lightsaber ended with him losing. That doesn't mean that tr-8r could have beaten Kylo, it means Finn wasn't as good with a saber, period. Kylo would have slaughtered tr-8r because Kylo is not only a trained saber fighter, but is also force trained and would make short work of a stormtrooper.[/sp]
[QUOTE=DuCT;49405260][sp]When I saw it, I was given the impression that Kylo was just playing with Finn. You could tell from Kylo's movements that he was just biding his time against Finn[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]You're ignoring that Finn actually hits him with the lightsaber. It doesn't matter that he wins, it matters that Finn more than held his own. Either way, I don't feel that Finn fighting Kylo for a minute made the scene any better, and actually I think it kinda diminishes what Rey did.[/sp] [editline]28th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;49405425]I feel like people are forgetting that Rey [sp]HAS had some kind of melee combat experience when they talk about how "it doesn't make sense that she's good with a lightsaber". Like did y'all forget she has a fucking polestaff at the beginning of the movie that she's likely had for years and knows how to use? It's not like she picked up a lightsaber with no prior knowledge of how to handle some kind of melee weapon[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]A good point, which I realized watching it again today in 2D. A polearm is no sword, though, and I don't think I said anywhere that it was totally unacceptable that she won.[/sp] [editline]28th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=S31-Syntax;49405603][sp]but Rey shot and hit like... what, 2 people? maybe a couple more in the thermal oscillator? She didn't adopt a blaster and turn into a crack shot. Hell, her first kill took not only several seconds to realize "fuck the safety is on" and then another couple of shots to actually hit the dude, which she didn't even expect to be able to do. Then she shot a few more times, maybe hit another dude, and bugged the hell out. And later, maybe she hit a couple more people after firing madly in anger. Maybe. Not really a crack shot. Finn on the other hand was quite capable with a blaster considering his history as a stormtrooper. Seems to have become much more capable after losing the armor. :v: As for tr-8r, that guy was well trained in baton combat, and while Finn had extensive combat training, he didn't have nearly as much close quarters training as tr-8r. People don't seem to realize that [I]both[/I] engagements Finn was in with his lightsaber ended with him losing. That doesn't mean that tr-8r could have beaten Kylo, it means Finn wasn't as good with a saber, period. Kylo would have slaughtered tr-8r because Kylo is not only a trained saber fighter, but is also force trained and would make short work of a stormtrooper.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]Rey shoots two shots at the first stormtrooper, second one hits. Then she shot one more dude with one shot (iirc, but my memory is fairly fresh). Where did you read about tr-8r's training? It wasn't in the movie so it really doesn't matter. And sure, he lost against both tr-8r and Kylo Ren, but whereas he lost majorly to tr-8r, he actually hit Kylo Ren - which leads to the conclusion that if he had only been trained in close quarters combat he would've won or what? The point about the force is kinda moot because he decides not to use it against Finn despite getting hit?[/sp]
[sp]He got a scathing hit on Kylo Ren, who was blasted by a fucking explosive crossbow bolt from Chewie's weapon in the side when he wasn't expecting it and dealing with pain, blood loss, and a draining adrenaline at the same time. And even then, Finn was pissed because Rey just got knocked the fuck out, and he basically fought like a berserker. It's notable because Kylo WAS toying with him and intentionally trying to make him suffer, but Finn did catch him off-guard. Although I didn't like Kylo basically being Episode 3 Anakin without any of the positives and with added temper tantrums, it made sense that he was arrogant at the worst of times, and once he went overboard on Finn, his brutal defeat at the hands of Rey only makes it more satisfying. And since Kylo blatantly isn't Darth Vader-tier in direct combat experience, it makes him seem still human and held back for now.[/sp]
[sp]Kylo Ren would have easily won against Finn. But there were things that compromised his ability to fight. He was wounded, he had just killed his father, he's inexperienced as is and his inability to control and channel his emotions properly makes it apparent. He's even beating on his wound to cause himself more pain to help channel his power. He's totally lost his damn composure completely. He's simply a novice. And on top of that Finn is quite proficient, having been trained from a very young age. So even though Kylo Ren still won, given the circumstances of what's happened, it was almost an even fight[/sp]
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