[QUOTE=Big Bang;52347489]
What the fuck are you talking about? How would anyone here have the ability to prevent what happened in Evergreen College? Are you accusing me of thoughtcrime?[/QUOTE]
Just ignore him. He's railing against the imaginary liberal machine and you're the closest thing he has to a defined target.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52347489]Saying "I'm left-wing" doesn't magically make you left-wing. I have read your posts and opinions on several different topics and I can tell you right now you're not left-wing. As for Tim Pool, his coverage of Sweden for one was extremely dishonest and rife with edited comments that only served as fuel for right wing pundits that support Trump's idea that Sweden is a hellhole.[/QUOTE]
I'm a full on socialist, you don't get more left-wing than that. Sure, he barely interviewed any left-wing people over here. But was anything wrong with the others, he interviewed? Enough Swedes share these views to vote 10%+ for a party critical of immigration. Sweden needed his coverage, because Swedish journalists are generally biased cowards scared of anything critical of immigration.
And you seem incapable of assigning right-wing policies to Tim Pool, wonder why.
[QUOTE=RB33;52347725]I'm a full on socialist, you don't get more left-wing than that. Sure, he barely interviewed any left-wing people over here. But was anything wrong with the others, he interviewed? Enough Swedes share these views to vote 10%+ for a party critical of immigration. Sweden needed his coverage, because Swedish journalists are generally biased cowards scared of anything critical of immigration.
And you seem incapable of assigning right-wing policies to Tim Pool, wonder why.[/QUOTE]
[url=https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/5zl7ur/iama_journalist_tim_pool_founding_member_of_vice/]Read his AMA then[/url], draw your own conclusions. You actually said it yourself, he doesn't comment often on his own views, they're apparent through his coverage however and how convenient they are to right-wing viewers.
As for where you stand, I think you really need to have some deep introspection, because you have never, ever demonstrated anything remotely close to a left-leaning position. Your views on culture bordered on nationalistic and fascistic, and you're now coming out in support of SD, which is as far from the left as it gets in Sweden.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52348031][url=https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/5zl7ur/iama_journalist_tim_pool_founding_member_of_vice/]Read his AMA then[/url], draw your own conclusions. You actually said it yourself, he doesn't comment often on his own views, they're apparent through his coverage however and how convenient they are to right-wing viewers.
As for where you stand, I think you really need to have some deep introspection, because you have never, ever demonstrated anything remotely close to a left-leaning position. Your views on culture bordered on nationalistic and fascistic, and you're now coming out in support of SD, which is as far from the left as it gets in Sweden.[/QUOTE]
What the hell are these accusations? My culture views are fascist? In case you want to deliberately erase cultures, if we are to exaggerate that much. I'm supporting SD now? I just claimed there is a reason for people to support them.
People like you, throwing accussations around like it's nothing are the problem with modern politics. Take a look at yourself as well.
[url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1560333]I'll just link to the thread and let people draw their own conclussions then.[/url]
I'm telling you that you're not left wing because nothing that you have ever said or done has in any way supported a leftist view, yet you insist on calling yourself a leftist because you're a "socialist".
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52348031]As for where you stand, I think you really need to have some deep introspection, because you have never, ever demonstrated anything remotely close to a left-leaning position. Your views on culture bordered on nationalistic and fascistic, and you're now coming out in support of SD, which is as far from the left as it gets in Sweden.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't bother with this because nowadays all you need to be right/left are people on the "other" side who hate you.
In the good old days it used to be you had to vote.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52348102][url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1560333]I'll just link to the thread and let people draw their own conclussions then.[/url]
I'm telling you that you're not left wing because nothing that you have ever said or done has in any way supported a leftist view, yet you insist on calling yourself a leftist because you're a "socialist".[/QUOTE]
Yeah, defending the cultural rights of minorities and sensitive groups is incredibly fascist. Leftism isn't about being apologetic for immigration and islam. Those are not core features of the left, just because I don't proclaim those values all the time doesn't mean that i'm not a leftist.
Why don't you define what being leftist require.
[QUOTE=RB33;52348255]Yeah, defending the cultural rights of minorities and sensitive groups is incredibly fascist. Leftism isn't about being apologetic for immigration and islam. Those are not core features of the left, just because I don't proclaim those values all the time doesn't mean that i'm not a leftist.
Why don't you define what being leftist require.[/QUOTE]
Oh piss off, that's not what you were doing, that's not what people will see if they read that thread. You're completely intellectually dishonest, you're trying to pass off as more moderate than you really are, and frankly I don't think you can even sell that to yourself. Your positions are completely erratic and inconsistent, as demonstrated by how you've managed to contradict yourself in that single sentence.
Refrain yourself from starting debates if you cannot carry a consistent tone or argument.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52348335]Oh piss off, that's not what you were doing, that's not what people will see if they read that thread. You're completely intellectually dishonest, you're trying to pass off as more moderate than you really are, and frankly I don't think you can even sell that to yourself. Your positions are completely erratic and inconsistent, as demonstrated by how you've managed to contradict yourself in that single sentence.
Refrain yourself from starting debates if you cannot carry a consistent tone or argument.[/QUOTE]
Says the guy only answering the questions that suits you. You ignored the question about pointing out the right-wing policies that Pool support and you won't define what a leftist is.
You're just doing this to feel a sense of moral superiority and demonize the other side. I don't care if the other side are "fascists", if I can convince them to see the left side of things, I will do so.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52348335]Oh piss off, that's not what you were doing, that's not what people will see if they read that thread. You're completely intellectually dishonest, you're trying to pass off as more moderate than you really are, and frankly I don't think you can even sell that to yourself. Your positions are completely erratic and inconsistent, as demonstrated by how you've managed to contradict yourself in that single sentence.
Refrain yourself from starting debates if you cannot carry a consistent tone or argument.[/QUOTE]
Having talked to RB33 abit/seen him in other threads, you are horribly mislabeling him and just proving his point.
He certainly not right-wing, nor Tim Pool.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52348864]Having talked to RB33 abit/seen him in other threads, you are horribly mislabeling him and just proving his point.
He certainly not right-wing, nor Tim Pool.[/QUOTE]
Says Tudd.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52348917]Says Tudd.[/QUOTE]
And you're an authority for judging people's political views? When you can't even define it.
I don't really like using Wikipedia for definitions but here:
[QUOTE]Left-wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality. It typically involves a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others (prioritarianism), as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished (by advocating for social justice). The term left wing can also refer to "the radical, reforming, or socialist section of a political party or system".[/QUOTE]
And why wouldn't I fit this definition?
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52348917]Says Tudd.[/QUOTE]
Shouldn't I be atleast somewhat knowledgeable on who else is right-wing here?
RB33 and I disagree on several other things, he isn't right-wing.
He won't change his mind, the left needs to remain pure and you can't combine leftist views with legitimate criticism commonly found on the right. Doesn't matter what your views on economics are, social issues is the only thing which matter apparently.
[QUOTE=RB33;52349187]He won't change his mind, the left needs to remain pure and you can't combine leftist views with legitimate criticism commonly found on the right. Doesn't matter what your views on economics are, social issues is the only thing which matter apparently.[/QUOTE]
"I'm totally left wing! Now let me generalize the entire left as being intellectually dishonest"
You're so bad at this
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;52349398]"I'm totally left wing! Now let me generalize the entire left as being intellectually dishonest"
You're so bad at this[/QUOTE]
Why am I not left then? Other than I don't fit into your definitions that you can't define?
[QUOTE=RB33;52348255]Yeah, defending the cultural rights of minorities and sensitive groups is incredibly fascist. Leftism isn't about being apologetic for immigration and islam. Those are not core features of the left, just because I don't proclaim those values all the time doesn't mean that i'm not a leftist.
Why don't you define what being leftist require.[/QUOTE]
Leftism is pro inclusion and anti imperialism and often has an open borders mentality
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52349503]Let's get the thread back on track. What legitimate criticism do you have?[/QUOTE]
From a Swedish perspective, the irresponsibilities in the immigration field. Immigrants sometimes have a hard time integrating, this has lead to crime. Keeping the flow of immigrants high despite this. Taking in huge amounts of refugees, much more than other countries (along with Germany). We have a housing crisis, we had to rent hotels, hostels and vacation cabins to house the refugess, paid with municipal money, which they don't have. The left going about that this is all fine, we need to be good moral beings and so on. Why should we take such a huge responsibility and suffer for it? Immigrants getting a higher priority in getting jobs, so people born here have to wait in line for getting help, which the line never ends.
The complete overdone social issue drive, that we need absolute racial tolerance, we got people afraid of talking about immigration, because of damn racist accusations being thrown around. People are not racist, you're not racist for using words in their historical context, black people are not internally racist for using the n-word themselves.
The absolute worst thing is shutting people up for having an opinion. You're critical of immigrants, well you're a "fascist" then. The Sweden Democrats (immigration critical party) got lots of bad eggs but their immigation policy is just lowering immigration to the level of our neighbouring countries. For that, they are called "neo-fascists" by the prime minister. Sweden Democrats got 10%+ in parliament, up towards 20% in polls. People wouldn't support them if there were no problems. They only had 3%, 10 years ago and were not even in parliament. What happened since then, we got 17% of the population becoming racists? Meanwhile we got actual fascists/neo-nazis marching in the streets but SD, the moderate critics are apparently as bad.
At its core, the left is about economic equality, not uncritical acceptance of feel good policies. Refusing to be critical of our own policies and calling other fascists is some horrible low standards, we have sunken to.
[editline]13th June 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=KillRay;52349552]Leftism is pro inclusion and anti imperialism and often has an open borders mentality[/QUOTE]
This is the problem, where did economic equality go? Sure, we are poor and have to work for large exploitative self-caring corporations. But at least we're equal, white, black, gay, whatever. Also having open borders, because ensuring local equality and fairness is less important than allowing more people in here.
If economic equality isn't number 1, we're fighting a false struggle. In that future, oppression will still remain, because we might have eliminated social differences but we barely lifted a finger against economic oppression. Economics is the foundation of all other forms of oppression.
[QUOTE=RB33;52347725]I'm a full on socialist, you don't get more left-wing than that.[/QUOTE]
Do you want the workers to take over the means of production? Do you want to get rid of bosses and landlords?
If not, then you're not a socialist.
[QUOTE=RB33;52349605]
At its core, the left is about economic equality, not uncritical acceptance of feel good policies. Refusing to be critical of our own policies and calling other fascists is some horrible low standards, we have sunken to.[/QUOTE]
The left-wing is about both economic and social equality (egalitarianism). Nationalist ideas, like the ones you demonstrate here, are not typically left wing at all. Most lefties are opposed to nationalism.
You seem more soc-lib or soc-dem than a leftist socialist. There's a big difference in beliefs
[QUOTE=UnknownDude;52349675]Do you want the workers to take over the means of production? Do you want to get rid of bosses and landlords?
If not, then you're not a socialist.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I do. Complete with direct democracy and local decision making.
[QUOTE]The left-wing is about both economic and social equality (egalitarianism). Nationalist ideas, like the one you demonstrate here, are not typically left wing at all. Most lefties are opposed to nationalism.[/QUOTE]
There is a point when "social equality" goes too far, when we need to compensate people just because they are minorites, they deserve better because their ancestors were historically oppressed (if even that, sometimes they apparently deserve better for just being different). That's not equality, you're contributing to future inequality by giving more to certain groups (even if the oppression, stopped long ago.) Though I admit, this is more of a fringe view but very annoying to see.
Nationalist ideas like not taking care of our own people in order to accept others, lowering our living standards for their sake. We can't handle this in a healthy way, that has been proven for 20+ years.
The right is falsely claiming to be pro-freedom side, there is no freedom if we all are economically oppressed. We're forced to work in order live, because our current society is based on that premise. Only when we all share the benefits of our labour can we be truly free. That's why the left is the true pro-freedom side. So now we are shutting people up for being "fascists", committing unprovoked violence even? What are we doing? Why are we so intolerant of the opposition? We are fighting imaginary foes to feel good, while not accomplishing equality.
[QUOTE=RB33;52349746]There is a point when "social equality" goes too far, when we need to compensate people just because they are minorites, they deserve better because their ancestors were historically oppressed (if even that, sometimes they apparently deserve better for just being different). That's not equality, you're contributing to future inequality by giving more to certain groups (even if the oppression, stopped long ago.) Though I admit, this is more of a fringe view but very annoying to see.[/quote]
Oppressed minorities do deserve better, and the oppression hasn't stopped, although the general situation has improved. But the majority also deserves better. We all deserve better.
This is a complex problem that can not be solved by anti-immigration rhetoric that only alienates the immigrants that are already here, effectively contributing to the oppression and worsening the problem.
That's not to say that the solution is open borders, at least not yet. And if it helps, raising the status of minorities over the majority is also a fringe idea that's not as widely supported by lefties as you'd think.
[quote]Nationalist ideas like not taking care of our own people in order to accept others, lowering our living standards for their sake. We can't handle this in a healthy way, that has been proven for 20+ years.[/quote]
I'm not convinced that your "own people" are having their living standards reduced because of immigration. Unemployment is affecting just about everyone at this point, and that's mostly due to capitalism and technology getting run to its logical conclusion: automation and outsourcing.
I would bet that an immigrant in Sweden would have just as bad luck with finding a job as you would.
And like it or not, if we are going to live in a world of billions of people and try to increase equality, while trying to stop climate change, we will all have to reduce our living standards (in the form of consumption and luxury) at least somewhat.
Taxing the rich and introducing universal basic income would be a great first step to tackling these problems.
[quote]The right is falsely claiming to be pro-freedom side, there is no freedom if we all are economically oppressed. We're forced to work in order live, because our current society is based on that premise. Only when we all share the benefits of our labour can we be truly free.
That's why the left is the true pro-freedom side.[/quote]
This I can agree with, with one little amendment: The [B]libertarian[/B] left I find to have the best and most comprehensive value of freedom.
[quote]So now we are shutting people up for being "fascists", committing unprovoked violence even? What are we doing? Why are we so intolerant of the opposition? We are fighting imaginary foes to feel good, while not accomplishing equality.[/QUOTE]
There has been a significant rise of authoritarian right-wing politics in the world recently. These are not imaginary enemies, these are real people who want to strip other people of their freedoms, and that's a worldview I find is not worth being tolerant towards.
If you want equality and freedom, it would be in your best interest to prevent these people from gaining power.
[QUOTE=UnknownDude;52349952]Oppressed minorities do deserve better, and the oppression hasn't stopped, although the general situation has improved. But the majority also deserves better. We all deserve better.
This is a complex problem that can not be solved by anti-immigration rhetoric that only alienates the immigrants that are already here, effectively contributing to the oppression and worsening the problem.
That's not to say that the solution is open borders, at least not yet. And if it helps, raising the status of minorities over the majority is also a fringe idea that's not as widely supported by lefties as you'd think.[/QUOTE]
Oppressed people in general deserves better, yes. So we even out the differences, not raising certain groups above others. We solve the causes, not give some lump sum as compensation or inequal prioritizing.
[QUOTE]I'm not convinced that your "own people" are having their living standards reduced because of immigration. Unemployment is affecting just about everyone at this point, and that's mostly due to capitalism and technology getting run to its logical conclusion: automation and outsourcing.
I would bet that an immigrant in Sweden would have just as bad luck with finding a job as you would.
And like it or not, if we are going to live in a world of billions of people and try to increase equality, while trying to stop climate change, we will all have to reduce our living standards (in the form of consumption and luxury) at least somewhat.
Taxing the rich and introducing universal basic income would be a great first step to tackling these problems.[/QUOTE]
Money goes to funding immigration, rather than social programs and things that the municipalities need the money for. Immigrants have lots of benefits to have it easier to find a job, it seldom leads to proper jobs though.
This isn't about consumption though, welfare (unemployment benefits, disabled benefits) are being cut and decreased in Sweden, increasing costs of immigration isn't helping. Welfare levels won't increase as long as the high cost of immigration remains.
[QUOTE]This I can agree with, with one little amendment: The [B]libertarian[/B] left I find to have the best and most comprehensive value of freedom.
[/QUOTE]
The trend is towards shutting up opposition though.
[QUOTE]There has been a significant rise of authoritarian right-wing politics in the world recently. These are not imaginary enemies, these are real people who want to strip other people of their freedoms, and that's a worldview I find is not worth being tolerant towards.
If you want equality and freedom, it would be in your best interest to prevent these people from gaining power.[/QUOTE]
People protesting Sharia as the OP video is about, is counter-protesting and refuse to debate with them preventing them from taking power? The foes are either politicans or authoritarian countries. Not people waving flags in the street, critizing immigration and political correctness.
[QUOTE=RB33;52350144]
The trend is towards shutting up opposition though.
People protesting Sharia as the OP video is about, is counter-protesting and refuse to debate with them preventing them from taking power? The foes are either politicans or authoritarian countries. Not people waving flags in the street, critizing immigration and political correctness.[/QUOTE]
You're def a liberal
[QUOTE=KillRay;52350169]You're def a liberal[/QUOTE]
It feels weird being called a liberal. Do you know many liberals wanting worker-controlled workplaces and abolition of the state?
[QUOTE=KillRay;52350169]You're def a liberal[/QUOTE]
american political definitions are so weird
[QUOTE=RB33;52350144]People protesting Sharia as the OP video is about, is counter-protesting and refuse to debate with them preventing them from taking power?[/quote]
"Sharia law" is often used as an excuse to shit on muslims, even if most muslims in that country don't want sharia law. There's not much of a point in actually protesting it here in the West, since it is highly unrealistic that anyone here would allow sharia law to take hold.
Sharia law is also interpreted very differently even in predominantly muslim countries.
Counter-protesting is an expression of freedom of speech just like demonstration is. The intention is to send a message of opposition to the ideas that are getting demonstrated for, hoping to prevent the demonstrating group from recruiting more members, effectively preventing them from taking power.
[quote]The foes are either politicans or authoritarian countries. Not people waving flags in the street, critizing immigration and political correctness.[/QUOTE]
Politicians and dictators are as much of a detriment to freedom as ordinary joes who hold the same beliefs as them. A well-organized movement can evolve into a political party, which can then take power in an election or a coup. That makes these flag-waving individuals dangerous.
[editline]13th June 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=RB33;52350179]It feels weird being called a liberal. Do you know many liberals wanting worker-controlled workplaces and abolition of the state?[/QUOTE]
If you want to abolish the state you will have to abolish borders too.
[QUOTE=UnknownDude;52350217]"Sharia law" is often used as an excuse to shit on muslims, even if most muslims in that country don't want sharia law. There's not much of a point in actually protesting it here in the West, since it is highly unrealistic that anyone here would allow sharia law to take hold.
Sharia law is also interpreted very differently even in predominantly muslim countries.[/QUOTE]
True, they maybe are protesting its implementation in muslim countries as well.
[QUOTE]Counter-protesting is an expression of freedom of speech just like demonstration is. The intention is to send a message of opposition to the ideas that are getting demonstrated for, hoping to prevent the demonstrating group from recruiting more members, effectively preventing them from taking power.[/QUOTE]
By shaming them and deny debate? You convince the opposition through arguments, not shouting.
[QUOTE]Politicians and dictators are as much of a detriment to freedom as ordinary joes who hold the same beliefs as them. A well-organized movement can evolve into a political party, which can then take power in an election or a coup. That makes these flag-waving individuals dangerous.[/QUOTE]
Politicans have actual power, ordinary joes representing a small minority of the population's views is generally not a threat. You're giving them power by acknowledging them, ignore them instead and they will most likely be forgotten.
[QUOTE]If you want to abolish the state you will have to abolish borders too.[/QUOTE]
Nope, borders will exist. Because without them comes unpredictable chaos, order comes first.
How is counter protesting denying debate and why aren't you also condemning the original protesters if you apparently think protesting as a whole is denying debate?
[QUOTE=RB33;52350287]By shaming them and deny debate? You convince the opposition through arguments, not shouting.[/quote]
Thing is, if this opposition requires counter-protesting in the first place, they will not be convinced by arguments. They will probably not be convinced by anyone other than themselves.
[quote]Politicans have actual power, ordinary joes representing a small minority of the population's views is generally not a threat. You're giving them power by aknowledging them, ignore them instead and they will most likely be forgotten.[/quote]
Right-wing authoritarianism is increasingly becoming a bigger minority of the population's views, and therefore a threat. Ignoring them makes them stronger, because someone else will always aknowledge them. If you show up a public street with a bunch of people and banners, someone will notice.
But counter-protesting with larger numbers than them makes them weaker. I have seen this in action.
I participated in counter-protests against PEGIDA some years ago when they started organizing themselves in Oslo. We showed up in superior numbers every time, while their attendance steadily lowered until they cancelled any further demonstrations and faded into obscurity.
This was accomplished solely using numbers, banners and slogans.
[quote]Nope, borders will exist. Because without them comes unpredictable chaos, order comes first.[/QUOTE]
Abolishing the state without having a population ready to manage and organize themselves in a decentralized fashion will lead to chaos anyway. And who's going to enforce the borders without a state? Who gets to decide who can come in and out?
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