• German Mayor Says Girls shouldnt "provoke" rapists
    75 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49665628]"an extreme minority are rapists, therefore we should treat all of them as rapists"[/QUOTE] Literally not even 1% close to what he said you really have to try harder when you're just going for those sick "YOU'RE A RACIST" burns.
[QUOTE=Killuah;49673576]Do you think city officials are not working on integrating migrants? [/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/15/german-town-bans-male-refugees-from-swimming-pool"]because [/URL][URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/a-refugee-riot-puts-a-german-town-on-edge/2015/10/01/fa9075bc-65f5-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story.html"][/URL][URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-german-village-sumte-shows-the-reality-behind-angela-merkel-s-open-door-policy-with-a6724741.html"] its really [/URL][URL="http://www.wsj.com/articles/german-police-detain-dozens-amid-concerns-over-migrant-crime-1453040238"] working out well[/URL]
[QUOTE=Incoming.;49673748][URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/15/german-town-bans-male-refugees-from-swimming-pool"]because [/URL][URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/a-refugee-riot-puts-a-german-town-on-edge/2015/10/01/fa9075bc-65f5-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story.html"][/URL][URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-german-village-sumte-shows-the-reality-behind-angela-merkel-s-open-door-policy-with-a6724741.html"] its really [/URL][URL="http://www.wsj.com/articles/german-police-detain-dozens-amid-concerns-over-migrant-crime-1453040238"] working out well[/URL][/QUOTE] What is your point? That integration efforts in all of Germany are pointless because they are not working here? [quote]“The phone and internet situation here is a joke, even local business people suffer,” said Sumte’s mayor, Christian Fabel, “We are trying to get something done about it, but Vodafone, who are the network providers, have not reacted so far,” he told The Independent. [/quote] [quote]The residents’ reaction has been mixed. Reinhold Schlemmer, a 72-year-old former Communist who was mayor while the village was part of the former East Germany, said he was delighted it could play a significant role in alleviating the suffering of refugees. “At least we can give them safety, food and a roof over their heads; for these people it means a great deal,” he told The Independent.[/quote] The other side of the mixed responses is a dude installing searchlights in his garden. In a different article the interviewd the neighbour to Mr. Searchlight and he's actually looking forward to getting new people into the shrinking village. [url]http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niedersachsen/lueneburg_heide_unterelbe/100-Seelen-Dorf-nimmt-1000-Fluechtlinge-auf,sumte100.html[/url] [editline]5th February 2016[/editline] Wait it gets better. Thanks for the article dude. [quote]Yet the only openly hostile opponent of Sumte’s new asylum camp is a 32-year-old neo-Nazi activist, Holger Niemann, a car-wash employee who represents a coalition of far-right parties on the local council. Mr Niemann said that although he was against the camp, he also welcomed it because it could stir up opposition to Angel Merkel’s “divisive” refugee policies.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Killuah;49673987]What is your point? That integration efforts in all of Germany are pointless because they are not working here? The other side of the mixed responses is a dude installing searchlights in his garden. In a different article the interviewd the neighbour to Mr. Searchlight and he's actually looking forward to getting new people into the shrinking village. [url]http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niedersachsen/lueneburg_heide_unterelbe/100-Seelen-Dorf-nimmt-1000-Fluechtlinge-auf,sumte100.html[/url] [editline]5th February 2016[/editline] Wait it gets better. Thanks for the article dude.[/QUOTE] if you think it makes sense to put nearly 1,000 refugees in a village with no internet, restaurants, cinema's, or supermarkets, then I don't know what to say. Nor do I understand why you decided to ignore half of the article in favor of pitting this as a "Charitable former communist vs Neo-Nazi" narrative.
oh, and theres two other articles in case you didn't already see them
[QUOTE=uber.;49669922]You're bringing up the "Why aren't they helping the homeless instead?" argument. And it's wrong because even if we didn't have the immigrants nobody would care about the homeless anyway. Problems like homelessness and underfinanced schools and all that stuff didn't just appear as soon as some immigrants crossed the border. I get that people are unhappy with their current government. But most of them apparently still make the mistake of confusing correlation with causation.[/QUOTE] Nice strawman, you leg dead lemonhead. But while you brought it up, if you're going to use -insert resource here- on the immigrants, why not give it to your citizens who need it most?
[QUOTE=Incoming.;49674509] Nor do I understand why you decided to ignore half of the article in favor of pitting this as a "Charitable former communist vs Neo-Nazi" narrative.[/QUOTE] It's easy to understand why. He doesn't have to refute their points if he calls them racist neo nazis.
Most people here don't seem to see anything close to the whole picture (Seriously, please read the mood in the material and do at least a little bit of research before commenting if it's obviously intentionally heated.), so here's some context: According to [URL="http://www.freiepresse.de/LOKALES/ERZGEBIRGE/AUE/Buergermeister-droht-Ich-rufe-die-Polizei-artikel9419751.php"]the article linked in the video descriptio[/URL][URL="https://archive.is/VKZWW"]n[/URL] ([URL="http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freiepresse.de%2FLOKALES%2FERZGEBIRGE%2FAUE%2FBuergermeister-droht-Ich-rufe-die-Polizei-artikel9419751.php"]English[/URL]) of the OP video, about half of the people present were reportedly from out of town and the NPD organised a protest there, "[of which] many participants flocked [...] into the townhall". The NPD is a party bordering being outlawed due to party officials declaring their goal is "[to do as much damage to the German democracy as possible]" (and a whole range of other incidents). In this case it seems they intentionally went there to escalate the situation as much as possible. (The camera man is misstating how law is applied to Germans multiple times, too.) [URL="https://archive.is/Oy5cC#selection-1525.0-1525.174"]The video description also notes that it's in part mistranslated:[/URL] [quote]TRANSLATION EDIT: It's difficult to hear, but he might be saying "in 10th grade" and not "under 10". It''s difficult to make out. Either way he means his young granddaughter.[/quote] (The man says "in der zehnten Klasse" afaict, so she'd be around 17.) I can't say anyone handled this well at all, [URL="http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freiepresse.de%2FLOKALES%2FERZGEBIRGE%2FAUE%2FBuergermeister-droht-Ich-rufe-die-Polizei-artikel9419751-2.php"]and the article notes this in part two[/URL], but it's nonetheless important to look at the complete picture here, which does include a lot of people who either [I]are[/I] neo-nazis or [I]very close[/I] to it. (The NPD regularly holds commemorative events for Nazi officials.) (Note that the article is somewhat mistranslated by Bing: Where it says "In bad Schlema, get yelled at and mobbed men who molested." the original sentence actually means "In Bad Schlema, people interrupted by yelling and swore/harassed." (with the last verb "pöbeln" being the same as what questioner accuses the refugees of initially in the video, albeit with slightly different meaning).) Ironically enough you could level the same accusations against most of the behaviour in this thread here. It's possible to discuss things like this without insults, making up others' statements or progressively escalating in tone or lack of effort.
Frankly, if the harassment is bad enough that the question has to be raised, there's probably something to it. Another point is, at least in this context, the views of the person asking the question should not be pivotal to the validity of the issue. Being 16-17 takes some of the edge off, but its still bad, considering the recent string of assaults in Cologne.
please, tell me the mayor is feeling backlass,for this
[QUOTE=Incoming.;49675314]Frankly, if the harassment is bad enough that the question has to be raised, there's probably something to it. Another point is, at least in this context, the views of the person asking the question should not be pivotal to the validity of the issue. Being 16-17 takes some of the edge off, but its still bad, considering the recent string of assaults in Cologne.[/QUOTE] I agree with that, and the perpetrators should be investigated and appropriately fined. I just think it's important to note that he was harassed at the meeting, and that many of those present tried to prevent actual discussion. (...or "meeting", really: I don't think he'd have been wrong to call the police had things escalated a bit further, just to be able to proceed at all. Of course he should have asked the hecklers to leave peacefully first.) The major is definitely not in the right here, but I seriously doubt he's quite the apologist he's made out to be in the video. I'd like to have heard how the discussion would have gone hadn't people started to scream at him instead of directly smacking down his "advice" (which really wouldn't have been much to ask for).
[QUOTE=Killuah;49673576]Do you think city officials are not working on integrating migrants? That's what the pro-Asylum people are promoting all the time after all and we are spending a good sum of money on education and integration programes.[/QUOTE] Cool, great, you do that. I hope it works. I mean it. No sarcasm. Since they are already here, I really hope the integration programs will be a success. But going back to the mayor, this isn't what's going on there. Like I posted previously, if the mayor said: "We are aware of this and the asylum seekers are undergoing integration programs, teaching them about our rules and laws, kids are being taught this is wrong and they are being scolded for it. You have to understand this might take a moment so meanwhile as it hasn't been completely fixed yet, you might want to avoid them if possible." that would go along with what you're saying, and even I would agree with him. However when asked what's going to be done about this he just went all smug and said "That's easy just don't provoke them and don't walk in these areas." He haven't said anything that would indicate that something is being done about this or even that will be done. No, just stop going there, problem fixed. You can dance around it as much as you want. The mayor said that the [B]solution [/B]to the problem is to stop going there. This isn't an advice WHILE he's doing something to address the cause of the problem. He said it's the girls fault (You did too btw). [editline]5th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Tamschi;49675387]I agree with that, and the perpetrators should be investigated and appropriately fined. I just think it's important to note that he was harassed at the meeting, and that many of those present tried to prevent actual discussion. (...or "meeting", really: I don't think he'd have been wrong to call the police had things escalated a bit further, just to be able to proceed at all. Of course he should have asked the hecklers to leave peacefully first.) The major is definitely not in the right here, but I seriously doubt he's quite the apologist he's made out to be in the video. I'd like to have heard how the discussion would have gone hadn't people started to scream at him instead of directly smacking down his "advice" (which really wouldn't have been much to ask for).[/QUOTE] We've been over the nazi thing in the last thread. Whether or not the grandfather is hitler reincarnated it only affects the validity of his concern for the girls, it changes nothing in the mayor's answer. And he is the apologist we are making him to be. First he said "That's easy just don't provoke them and don't walk in these areas." and then when the crowd calmed down he continued with the same narrative "Well, it's technically not necessary for the girls to walk there. There are alternative routes for going to school". Not going there is his solution. He gave no indication that something is being done or will be done about this. No, just stop going there, that's how easy the problem of harassment is to fix. Stop trying to spin it as "advice".
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;49676875][...] We've been over the nazi thing in the last thread. Whether or not the grandfather is hitler reincarnated it only affects the validity of his concern for the girls, it changes nothing in the mayor's answer. And he is the apologist we are making him to be. First he said "That's easy just don't provoke them and don't walk in these areas." and then when the crowd calmed down he continued with the same narrative "Well, it's technically not necessary for the girls to walk there. There are alternative routes for going to school". Not going there is his solution. He gave no indication that something is being done or will be done about this. No, just stop going there, that's how easy the problem of harassment is to fix. Stop trying to spin it as "advice".[/QUOTE] You're completely missing the point. The issue isn't that someone is probably a neo-nazi (and I very much assume the questioner isn't, sounds like he's actually a local), but that they intentionally interrupted the discussion before it could have been solved otherwise due to their rejection of existing government. It should have been rather easy to convince the major to look into the problems more thoroughly, hadn't the people present behaved as badly as what was alleged of the refugees. Overall what is present in the video is about equally symptomatic of government mishandling as it is of promotion of xenophobia by one of our local racist parties (who in the process prolong the initial problem to further outrage). (As an aside, if I didn't mishear the questioner it was refugee children doing it. (The quotes in the subtitles are probably somewhat misleading, since he only pauses but gives no indication how old they are afaict.) This does pose another issue because it's not necessarily possible to prosecute them for this if they're too young. <14 years it's impossible to prosecute someone and <18 it may be difficult if there's a reason they don't know better (which goes for everyone, it's not a special regulation for certain groups). Civil suits are unaffected, but they have to be initiated by the victim and definitely aren't as straightforward for the damaged party as when a prosecutor handles the case.) If you really think I'm spinning anything here, you're woefully misinformed as far as German politics go. People make impractical statements all the time, but normally they're quickly resolved through fairly polite debate, so I'm definitely blaming both parties involved in the "discussion" for the lack of countermeasures.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;49677463]You're completely missing the point. The issue isn't that someone is probably a neo-nazi (and I very much assume the questioner isn't, sounds like he's actually a local), but that they intentionally interrupted the discussion before it could have been solved otherwise due to their rejection of existing government. It should have been rather easy to convince the major to look into the problems more thoroughly, hadn't the people present behaved as badly as what was alleged of the refugees. Overall what is present in the video is about equally symptomatic of government mishandling as it is of promotion of xenophobia by one of our local racist parties (who in the process prolong the initial problem to further outrage). (As an aside, if I don't misheard the questioner it was refugee children doing it. (The quotes in the subtitles are probably somewhat misleading, since he only pauses but gives no indication how old they are afaict.) This does pose another issue because it's not necessarily possible to prosecute them for this if they're too young. <14 years it's impossible to prosecute someone and <18 it may be difficult if there's a reason they don't know better (which goes for everyone, it's not a special regulation for certain groups). Civil suits are unaffected, but they have to be initiated by the victim and definitely aren't as straightforward for the damaged party as when a prosecutor handles the case.) If you really think I'm spinning anything here, you're woefully misinformed as far as German politics go. People make impractical statements all the time, but normally they're quickly resolved through fairly polite debate, so I'm definitely blaming both parties involved in the "discussion" for the lack of countermeasures.[/QUOTE] Oh ok so you mean the crowd should have entered a tempered discussion and persuade the mayor to do the right thing? Yea, I agree, I guess. That would be the most constructive thing they could have done. They are needlessly adding fuel to the fire, sure, they would make him fix the issues faster if they would make more sense than noise. On the other hand it's the mayor's job to find solutions and take care of his citizens. So, at least for me, it's more outrageous for the mayor to say something like that than for the people to become unreasonable after they got outraged by what he said. But like you said they have political agenda not to make it easy and reasonable so the party is fucked up too.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;49677822]Oh ok so you mean the crowd should have entered a tempered discussion and persuade the mayor to do the right thing? Yea, I agree, I guess. That would be the most constructive thing they could have done. They are needlessly adding fuel to the fire, sure, they would make him fix the issues faster if they would make more sense than noise. On the other hand it's the mayor's job to find solutions and take care of his citizens. So, at least for me, it's more outrageous for the mayor to say something like that than for the people to become unreasonable after they got outraged by what he said. But like you said they have political agenda not to make it easy and reasonable so the party is fucked up too.[/QUOTE] Yes, there's definitely some amount of backlash that's appropriate and necessary here. In this situation in particular, it would be imo necessary to at least have some official talk it through thoroughly with the refugees/asylum applicants in question since it's a current issue. Assuming they are at least 14, this would also open them up to liability for certain, but even otherwise the state would be responsible since they're in its custody in some way. (In practice there's a specific custodian they're assigned to while underage, but there aren't enough of those so it doesn't surprise me things like this happen. If the mayor made them aware of the issue they could bring it up even without having witnessed it though.) Things can and do get pretty heated sometimes, but afaik it's really uncommon to see people outright shout at and over each other like this even if someone says something outrageously stupid, which is why I'm so appalled at the situation.
As I said in the last thread: [QUOTE]It seems to me like this is going to turn the wheels of yet another vicious cycle where the far/center right gain prominence once more and use it as fuel to push their own agendas until something is done. Harsh as it sounds, it's clear that refugees need to forced to integrate whilst those who won't - or can't - need to be pushed out. They can't be blamed for wanting to find a better, safer life in Europe (blame the smugglers for taking advantage of this mess) but they need to be made to adapt to life in whatever new countries they find, like it or not. It's the only way things will work out. I mean, hell - it's not like the situations settlers had with the Americas where the natives had their cultural identities broken apart and forced to attend schools where they learned to be 'civilised', refugees are coming onto Europe's doorstep and obviously whilst they shouldn't have to give up their faiths or certain aspects of their own culture, they should damn-well adapt to the cultures and social morals/standards of the countries they'll be living in. Here's an example: Take a look at the Pakistani community that started coming over to the UK in the 60s, for the most part they're pretty well-integrated and as much a part of british society as anyone (who doesn't have a paki shop just around the corner? or curry places?) whilst still retaining aspects of their own culture, their own faiths and even language. So yeah. Basically, those who refuse to adapt to what's socially/morally acceptable (IE, not regarding women as second class citizens, making an effort at least to learn the language) and continue to act against those same standards should be rejected and regurgitated. The only exceptions to this are children, whom still have a shot at being raised to know better.[/QUOTE]
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