Transgenderism, should it be accepted or not? - General

[QUOTE=Alice3173;44284122]That man has been dead for 55 years. I'm pretty sure more recent studies on the subject should be considered over ones over half a century old.[/QUOTE] Oh really, where are your sources? NOT a youtube video in the OP. Edit: What I mean to say is. Can you please back up your posts with a creditable source from a research study that's not biased?

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;44284103]Uh, no? I never experienced any trauma. I even had come out as gay originally and was okay being labeled as a gay man. But it still felt off, and I had found out what it was and now I'm transitioning to female. Besides, being gay is less stigmatizing than being trans. It's not a sexual fantasy or anything like that. Are you aware that transgender individual's brain structures resemble those of the sex they identify as? A transgender female (Male-To-Female) has the same brain structure to that of a cis (binary) female. And vice versa for transgender men and cis men. It's only a theory as it stands, but research and evidence supports that it's highly likely that this happens during development in the womb. We all start off as female fetuses in the womb. If the fetus is destined to become male, there are two instances where the fetus is pumped with testosterone. One is for the brain's development, and the other is for the body's development. For transgirls, the brain is not fed the testosterone, or not fed enough of it, while the body is. This causes the brain to stay as female and continue developing as such while the body becomes male. I'd assume the opposite is for transmen. Where the brain gets fed T so it develops as male, but the body doesn't get that dose and develops as female. This is why the whole, "I'm X born in a Y's body," saying exists. Because it's literally what it is. It's basically the wrong brain in the wrong body. That's why we end up feeling wrong in our skin. Now, it's true, a lot of trans people have experienced some sort of trauma. But that's usually as a direct result of being transgender. Having your brain tell you everything about your body is wrong takes its toll on transgender individuals. It gets so bad that a lot of us end up developing mental illnesses as a result.[/QUOTE] I know it's hard for you to say that you have experienced trauma because most who have suffered from it have trouble coming out. I'm not saying you have to say it out here in public, but I know you have had trauma in the past.

[QUOTE=Jetblack357;44283876]I dont think we should accept them at all. I feel that this everyone is special society that is now actively encouraged is damaging to society.[/QUOTE] Lol, this is incredibly idiotic. The only people this is actively damaging is bigots who are stuck in their ideals. If society as a whole was accepting of people for how they are, transgenderism being accepted is no problem. [QUOTE]i feel that it is in fact more damaging to allow these individuals to carry out their strange fantasies as it only makes their social interactions with those around them that much more awkward and uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] People let it make them uncomfortable because we aren't used to gender being not so black and white. So your solution is to make it black and white? This is the kind of thinking that pressures people into suicide, and not just over transgenderism either. You can tell gay people that "Whoa stop, being gay makes people uncomfortable" and it will have the same crushing effect on them as it would to tell a transgender person to stop being transgender. That's a stupidly backwards and outdated mindset you have. [QUOTE]Furthermore, I feel that it would be better to actually send them to something like a summer school to try and learn to cope with their problems, not like the camps you see nowadays where they abuse gays and what not.[/QUOTE] You are encouraging segregation because of who they are now? Don't be stupid. And you can't honestly think "Well we just won't have places where they won't be abused." is going to solve anything. Even if this stupid camp idea went ahead, abuse isn't something you can magically predict happening. [QUOTE]But just a camp type environment where they can discuss whats wrong with them with a psychiatrist and try and get to the root of why they are the way they are.[/QUOTE] Or alternatively, we encourage people to be how they are, and not convolute things with ridiculous ideas like yours? What is this camp going to solve? Make them feel more like freaks that need to be 'fixed' and taken away from people they care about? I don't think you even put any thought into this at all. [editline]19th March 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=inertmudkip;44284149]I know it's hard for you to say that you have experienced trauma because most who have suffered from it have trouble coming out. I'm not saying you have to say it out here in public, but I know you have had trauma in the past.[/QUOTE] No you don't, stop being stupid. How can you possibly know anyone has had trauma in their past unless you were the one doing it to them?

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;44284152]Lol, this is incredibly idiotic. The only people this is actively damaging is bigots who are stuck in their ideals. If society as a whole was accepting of people for how they are, transgenderism being accepted is no problem. People let it make them uncomfortable because we aren't used to gender being not so black and white. So your solution is to make it black and white? This is the kind of thinking that pressures people into suicide, and not just over transgenderism either. You can tell gay people that "Whoa stop, being gay makes people uncomfortable" and it will have the same crushing effect on them as it would to tell a transgender person to stop being transgender. That's a stupidly backwards and outdated mindset you have. You are encouraging segregation because of who they are now? Don't be stupid. And you can't honestly think "Well we just won't have places where they won't be abused." is going to solve anything. Even if this stupid camp idea went ahead, abuse isn't something you can magically predict happening. Or alternatively, we encourage people to be how they are, and not convolute things with ridiculous ideas like yours? What is this camp going to solve? Make them feel more like freaks that need to be 'fixed' and taken away from people they care about? I don't think you even put any thought into this at all. [editline]19th March 2014[/editline] No you don't, stop being stupid. How can you possibly know anyone has had trauma in their past unless you were the one doing it to them?[/QUOTE] So im a bigot now? Nice to see you ad hominem when you can't come up with a real counter to my argument.

[QUOTE=Jetblack357;44284194]So im a bigot now? Nice to see you ad hominem when you can't come up with a real counter to my argument.[/QUOTE] You're suggesting a camp to send people away to because they are different. I mean you pretty much called yourself a bigot there for me. I didn't even have to do it.

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;44284203]You're suggestion a camp to send people away to because they are different.[/QUOTE] Not a camp, more or less like a stay away from home while they see the psychiatrist. These people really do need help, its okay for people to be gay but for people to act like this is just damaging to them and everyone around them. Gender is a black and white issue. There are males, then there are females. Also, "you are suggestion" ? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is not debating, already on incredibly thin ice from past offenses in transgender threads and others. Last chance." - Megafan))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Jetblack357;44284224]Not a camp, more or less like a stay away from home while they see the psychiatrist. These people really do need help, its okay for people to be gay but for people to act like this is just damaging to them and everyone around them. Gender is a black and white issue. There are males, then there are females. [/QUOTE] You said camp type environment. I can go back and quote it for you if you missed your own post. And they do need help to figure themselves out, but sending them to a camp is idiotic. That encourages people to think they are freaks who need to be sent away for fixing. [QUOTE]Also, "you are suggestion" ?[/QUOTE] It was a typo? I mean they teach that people make mistakes in like the first year of school.

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;44284264]You said camp type environment. I can go back and quote it for you if you missed your own post. And they do need help to figure themselves out, but sending them to a camp is idiotic. That encourages people to think they are freaks who need to be sent away for fixing.[/QUOTE] If sending them to a camp is idiotic, how about we change the form of healthcare to helping the transgender people's mental disability

[QUOTE=Jetblack357;44284304]If sending them to a camp is idiotic, how about we change the form of healthcare to helping the transgender people's mental disability[/QUOTE] The camp is wrong because it sends entirely the wrong message. You wouldn't make a camp to fix a race, or sexuality, and expect it to not come off as a place to send people who don't fit in. Think of a few things for me: 1: The person is away from their family and friends for something they were born as. 2: The person already is part of a group of people that are badly discriminated against. 3: The person is made to speak to doctors about how they are wrong to be who they are and that they need to be fixed. Now, surely you see the issue in thinking a camp or anything similar is a good idea? Really, I don't really get why all these ideas of how to fix it need to be made. Sure they do need the help to talk and figure themselves out. But a major part of why transgender people have so much trouble is with how gender is perceived. This whole black and white gender thing is bullshit, sex is for the most part black and white but gender isn't at all.

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;44284397]The camp is wrong because it sends entirely the wrong message. You wouldn't make a camp to fix a race, or sexuality, and expect it to not come off as a place to send people who don't fit in. Think of a few things for me: 1: The person is away from their family and friends for something they were born as. 2: The person already is part of a group of people that are badly discriminated against. 3: The person is made to speak to doctors about how they are wrong to be who they are and that they need to be fixed. Now, surely you see the issue in thinking a camp or anything similar is a good idea? Really, I don't really get why all these ideas of how to fix it need to be made. Sure they do need the help to talk and figure themselves out. But a major part of why transgender people have so much trouble is with how gender is perceived. This whole black and white gender thing is bullshit, sex is for the most part black and white but gender isn't at all.[/QUOTE] This isn't an issue about race or sexuality, it's about curing a mental disorder. Just because insane people are born insane doesn't mean that they should be that way. The reason for the camp isn't to separate them, but because not many hospitals have proper psychiatric care for these people.

I've always had the idea that gender is largely arbitrary. I mean, your sex is randomly given to you at birth and it's a 50/50 chance either way. Why should that determine how you live your life? And why is it my business if somebody decides to act outside of what is generally accepted to be "normal"? As long as they're not hurting anybody, live and let live, I say.

[QUOTE=inertmudkip;44284446]This isn't an issue about race or sexuality, it's about curing a mental disorder.[/QUOTE] It's a comparison. Sending someone to a camp because their gender doesn't fit the norm is no different to sending someone from a different race or sexuality. It needed to be brought up because he didn't seem to get why a camp was absurd. [QUOTE]Just because insane people are born insane doesn't mean that they should be that way. The reason for the camp isn't to separate them, but because not many hospitals have proper psychiatric care for these people.[/QUOTE] This isn't about insane people now is it? And the reason for the camp he suggested was to 'fix' them, and in the process that means taking them away. That is separating them, I don't see how them being moved away isn't separating them. And if the suggestion to make a camp comes from hospitals not having adequate psychiatric care, then why not just give the hospitals adequate care for this? News recently is showing transgenderism is gradually becoming more commonplace as people start to realize they don't have to fit to male or female. Giving hospitals adequate care preemptively isn't a bad idea, plus it could be put to other uses. Instead of a camp.

[QUOTE=inertmudkip;44284446]This isn't an issue about race or sexuality, it's about curing a mental disorder. Just because insane people are born insane doesn't mean that they should be that way. The reason for the camp isn't to separate them, but because not many hospitals have proper psychiatric care for these people.[/QUOTE] See, here's the thing with treating transgenderism as a mental disorder. You have to consider what's more important when defining what makes people what they are. Is it their body or their mind? If somebody is born male but feels that they should've been female, they should be able to get treatment that makes them female in body too. But if their dysphoria is causing them enough distress that they would rather be male in their mind as well as their body, that option for treatment should also be open. In either case, it should be up to the transgender people themselves. Why should anybody else get involved at all?

[QUOTE=Jetblack357;44284224]Not a camp, more or less like a stay away from home while they see the psychiatrist. These people really do need help, its okay for people to be gay but for people to act like this is just damaging to them and everyone around them. Gender is a black and white issue. There are males, then there are females. Also, "you are suggestion" ? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is not debating, already on incredibly thin ice from past offenses in transgender threads and others. Last chance." - Megafan))[/highlight][/QUOTE] i know you were probably just trolling but for the record gender or sex has never been black and white [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome[/URL] [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex[/URL] not even just in people, either. [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism[/URL] and i can easily get better sources than wikipedia. [QUOTE=inertmudkip;44284446]This isn't an issue about race or sexuality, it's about curing a mental disorder. Just because insane people are born insane doesn't mean that they should be that way. The reason for the camp isn't to separate them, but because not many hospitals have proper psychiatric care for these people.[/QUOTE] the "cure" for this "mental disorder" is to let transgender people "live out their fantasies" as you would put it. and it has been for a very very [I]very[/I] long time and its been observed medically that trying to change something like that [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer"]never ends well.[/URL]

[QUOTE=inertmudkip;44283902]I agree with Jetblack, these people that want to carry out these weird fantasies must have gone through some psychological trauma. It is possible they have been sexually abused at a young age which is why they want to become to the opposite sex. Either that or they want to have sexual intercourse with men without being labeled as a "homosexual" or "gay."[/QUOTE] Man I sure do love opinions that have no evidence to support them.

[QUOTE=Jetblack357;44284139]Oh really, where are your sources? NOT a youtube video in the OP. Edit: What I mean to say is. Can you please back up your posts with a creditable source from a research study that's not biased?[/QUOTE] Your event log has plenty of examples. You've seen (and subsequently ignored) quite a few. Here, let me provide you with some posts from threads you've been banned in that have exactly the sources you're asking for. [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1165007&p=34808412&viewfull=1#post34808412]Here's one link on an article about transgenderism[/url] [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1165007&p=34788131&viewfull=1#post34788131]Here's another[/url] [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1160071&page=10]Here's a related article (two in fact)[/url] [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1160071&p=34496224&viewfull=1#post34496224]And another[/url] Here, have a few other various articles: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism[/url] [QUOTE]Rearing / Trauma For many years, many people, including psychiatrist and sexologist David Oliver Cauldwell,[2] argued that transsexualism is a psychological/emotional disorder caused by psychological and environmental factors, due to personality conflicts. Harry Benjamin wrote, "Our genetic and endocrine equipment constitutes either an unresponsive [or] fertile soil on which the wrong conditioning and a psychological trauma can grow and develop into such a basic conflict that subsequently a deviation like transsexualism can result."[3] [B]The unsuccessful outcome of an attempt to raise David Reimer, the victim of an early accidental genital mutilation, as a girl from infancy through adolescence is cited as disproof of the theory that one's inborn sense of gender is developed through parenting.[4][5] His case is used by organizations such as The Intersex Society of North America as a cautionary tale about why one should not needlessly modify the genitals of unconsenting minors.[6][/B][/QUOTE] [url]http://www.avitale.com/etiologicalreview.htm[/url] [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19751389[/url] [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803[/url] [url]http://www.lgbt.ucla.edu/documents/APAGenderIdentity.pdf[/url] [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193[/url] [url]http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx[/url] [url]http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/HomePage/Group/MestonLAB/HTML%20files/Resources_msd_gender.htm[/url] [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/829048[/url] [url]http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx[/url] [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20132527[/url] [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18761592[/url] [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17875490[/url] [url]http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4615-4163-9_36#page-1[/url] [url]http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09513590400018231[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder#Causes[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Causes[/url] [url]http://mds.marshall.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1054&context=etd[/url] There, is that enough to satisfy you yet? [QUOTE=inertmudkip;44284149]I know it's hard for you to say that you have experienced trauma because most who have suffered from it have trouble coming out. I'm not saying you have to say it out here in public, but I know you have had trauma in the past.[/QUOTE] Do you realize how you've worded this? If you're not wording it this way on purpose you're outright wording it in such a way as to upset people. [QUOTE=Jetblack357;44284194]So im a bigot now? Nice to see you ad hominem when you can't come up with a real counter to my argument.[/QUOTE] Yes, you are. Just look back at your event log for several examples.

[QUOTE=inertmudkip;44284149]I know it's hard for you to say that you have experienced trauma because most who have suffered from it have trouble coming out. I'm not saying you have to say it out here in public, but I know you have had trauma in the past.[/QUOTE] But I just said I haven't?

I'd like to point out quickly here that GID is no longer considered a [I]mental disorder[/I], and thus isn't treated the way a mental illness might be (through symptomatic management.) Previously, GID was considered to be a mental illness that resulted in a desire to modify ones body. As of the DSM-V, however, GID has been re-classified as Gender Dysphoria and is categorized as a [I]medical disorder[/I]. Which is to say that it's now seen by the medical and psychological community as a physical incongruity that [I]causes[/I] mental trauma as a side effect. We now fix the issue, to correct the mental trauma. We no longer seek to suppress the mental trauma itself. In short, anybody blabbing about it being a mental disease that should be cured is just an idiot. It's a physical abnormality to be corrected, and it's as simple as that. (Oh, and btw, very few transgendered people have had any sign of childhood trauma with any link to their gender dysphoria -- the numbers are congruent with statistics pertaining to ciskids, so you should stop batting that around, too.)

[QUOTE=Pudding~;44285362]I'd like to point out quickly here that GID is no longer considered a [I]mental disorder[/I], and thus isn't treated the way a mental illness might be (through symptomatic management.) Previously, GID was considered to be a mental illness that resulted in a desire to modify ones body. As of the DSM-V, however, GID has been re-classified as Gender Dysphoria and is categorized as a [I]medical disorder[/I]. Which is to say that it's now seen by the medical and psychological community as a physical incongruity that [I]causes[/I] mental trauma as a side effect. We now fix the issue, to correct the mental trauma. We no longer seek to suppress the mental trauma itself. In short, anybody blabbing about it being a mental disease that should be cured is just an idiot. It's a physical abnormality to be corrected, and it's as simple as that. (Oh, and btw, very few transgendered people have had any sign of childhood trauma with any link to their gender dysphoria -- the numbers are congruent with statistics pertaining to ciskids, so you should stop batting that around, too.)[/QUOTE] Honestly I don't know if that helps people with accepting transgenderism. It's still labeled as a disease, even if it's physical. People will have a far larger time having trouble accepting the idea of transgenderism if it is labeled as any kind of disease, and in fact, I think labeling it as a disease makes it all the much more difficult for transgendered people to accept even themselves. Based off what I have seen, transgenderism is something that is going to take longer than homosexuality to become fully accepted, especially if we keep putting labels on it. It's just like the HIV/AIDs scares; people blamed that on homosexuality, and thus the disease associated with homosexuality made it far more difficult for people to accept them into society. I am a full supporter of transgenderism, but there needs to be some serious talks about it not being labeled as a disease if we want a majority of people to begin to accept it.

[QUOTE=Splittykitty;44285603]I think labeling it as a disease makes it all the much more difficult for transgendered people to accept even themselves.[/QUOTE] I could be wrong but if I remember correctly part of the reason for changing its classification (other than what Pudding~ had posted) was actually something to do with forcing more health insurance plans to actually cover it. Also note that it's a medical disorder not a disease. The DSM-V is [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-V]The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition[/url] meaning it's not really for diseases.

they can label it physical or mental but really its both mixed with other problems. the mental part is the brain knows something isn't right but cant quite explain it till a later age for most people. the physical part is in fact realizing your body doesn't match the gender you identify with and it messes with your mind, your mind doesn't want to accept it. its physically mental or mentally physical your choice. treating it as one or the other is not going to work. when it was treated as a psychological issue, most any medication increased the like hood of suicide, treating only the physical part of it leaves behind the mental issues that linger along side Gender Identity Disorder, depression being common. cause even after HRT, SRS, and FFS, people still sometimes commit suicide due to depression or regret because the surgeries aren't perfect.

Why does it matter what causes a person to be transgender? Can we not accept people regardless of their origins?

[QUOTE=Jookia;44285758]Why does it matter what causes a person to be transgender? Can we not accept people regardless of their origins?[/QUOTE] Well understanding why it happens is a very important part of treating it. We should accept people regardless of their origins though. Skin color, race, sex, gender, sexuality, none of that should actually be relevant in judging whether or not to accept someone.

I'm sorry for the late reply, but I wrote my post just before I went to bed. [QUOTE=Dramiek;44281588]What. This sounds like a generalization to me - the only ones you'll see dressing radically different are probably the overly flamboyant ones. I mean heck I dress "normally" and I'm pretty gay.[/QUOTE] I don't mean the overly flamboyant ones. I'm talking about most gays in general. And I don't mean things like what they do on gay prides, I mean dressing up with brighter things, mixing tastes, wearing something new every day. Granted, not all gays do that, but every gay I've seen so far has dressed up very good. It's just a taste they have. Something normal people can't do that easily. Also, if you're really gay, then you will consider the way you dress as normal. But other people won't think that, they will see it as more beautiful, but not normal. [QUOTE=Alice3173;44280025]Can you provide proof of this?[/QUOTE] I have no hard evidence, but I do have a gay friend who has told me that when he was little, before he even knew he was a homosexual, he used to prefer sitting on his uncle's lap more than sitting on his aunt's lap. The same goes with kissing and hugging. All I'm saying is that for me, being gay is a form of mental sickness. Not a bad one, but it is still a form of sickness. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Claim based on anecdotal evidence - read the sticky" - Megafan))[/highlight]

idk,I think when a person does not feel right in their own, natural body, something has to be wrong with them mentally. I don't support the sickness because when I see a man sloppily dressed up as a woman and pass it off as being transgender, it makes me think there's something not right in the head with them. Same with women too but I don't encouter trans women as much as trans men; I personally think women who are trans pull it off better. Which makes me think that it's purely a thought process and not a physical one. If a man or woman sits there, looking like a man or woman, and says they are the opposite gender, I really think there is something wrong with them. it makes me sad to think they can't be comfortable with their bodies.

[QUOTE=Nighty;44286289]I have no hard evidence, but I do have a gay friend who has told me that when he was little, before he even knew he was a homosexual, he used to prefer sitting on his uncle's lap more than sitting on his aunt's lap. The same goes with kissing and hugging. All I'm saying is that for me, being gay is a form of mental sickness. Not a bad one, but it is still a form of sickness.[/QUOTE] How exactly does someone preferring to sit on a certain lap make you certain something is a sickness?

[QUOTE=Nighty;44286289]I'm sorry for the late reply, but I wrote my post just before I went to bed. I don't mean the overly flamboyant ones. I'm talking about most gays in general. And I don't mean things like what they do on gay prides, I mean dressing up with brighter things, mixing tastes, wearing something new every day. Granted, not all gays do that, but every gay I've seen so far has dressed up very good. It's just a taste they have. Something normal people can't do that easily. Also, if you're really gay, then you will consider the way you dress as normal. But other people won't think that, they will see it as more beautiful, but not normal. I have no hard evidence, but I do have a gay friend who has told me that when he was little, before he even knew he was a homosexual, he used to prefer sitting on his uncle's lap more than sitting on his aunt's lap. The same goes with kissing and hugging. All I'm saying is that for me, being gay is a form of mental sickness. Not a bad one, but it is still a form of sickness.[/QUOTE] How would your friend react if you told him that he is mentally ill for being who he is?

Of course it should be accepted. Everything should be accepted. Unless it imposes harm unto others. and I definitely don't see how declaring what gender you are could harm anyone. doesn't mean I approve of your faggotry tho [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is not debating - read the sticky" - Megafan))[/highlight]

They should have the same rights as everywone else, hence i am a libertarian everywone can do whatever they want to do as long as they wont hurt anyone.

[QUOTE=Krooms;44287656]Of course it should be accepted. Everything should be accepted. Unless it imposes harm unto others. and I definitely don't see how declaring what gender you are could harm anyone. doesn't mean I approve of your faggotry tho[/QUOTE] Wait, you accept it but you don't approve? Care to explain? I don't quite understand what you mean. If you do not approve, then how could you accept it? Truly, approval is necessary for acceptance. Also, please don't use the word "faggotry" in an intentionally offensive and demeaning context. That's just not cool. You honestly can't accept them if you refer to what they are as "faggotry".