Transgenderism, should it be accepted or not? - General

I'd advise those with misguided views read this: [url]http://www.cracked.com/article_20997_5-shocking-realities-being-transgender-media-ignores_p2.html[/url]

[QUOTE=Boaraes;44288810]Wait, you accept it but you don't approve? Care to explain? I don't quite understand what you mean. If you do not approve, then how could you accept it? Truly, approval is necessary for acceptance. Also, please don't use the word "faggotry" in an intentionally offensive and demeaning context. That's just not cool. You honestly can't accept them if you refer to what they are as "faggotry".[/QUOTE] It means I don't mind you doing whatever you want in public or in home or just as a person in general: being gay shouting you're gay being transgendered wearing brony tshirt think you're an animal having buttsex in front of me but I don't want to be friends with or talk to you. that goes for everything from transgenderism to being a heroin addict no I'm not comparing the two, I'm conveying a spectrum from one end to the other that consists of many other things [editline]wat[/editline] also please don't get tumblr with me and act like using a derogatory term, in any context, is even remotely offensive offense is subjective and if you choose to be offended by my shiton online text, then that's your own issue to deal with. all I think about when I say faggoty is a tree with rainbow leaves so relax mate, it's cool

[QUOTE=Nighty;44286289]I have no hard evidence, but I do have a gay friend who has told me that when he was little, before he even knew he was a homosexual, he used to prefer sitting on his uncle's lap more than sitting on his aunt's lap. The same goes with kissing and hugging. All I'm saying is that for me, being gay is a form of mental sickness. Not a bad one, but it is still a form of sickness.[/QUOTE] There's not even a valid correlation there. Preferring to sit one relative's lap over another's is [I]far[/I] more likely to be simply because they like that relative more than the other. Also just because you want to believe it's a sickness doesn't mean it is one. You have to back up your claims with evidence here or, at the very least, solid logic which you aren't doing.

[QUOTE=Nighty;44286289]I have no hard evidence, but I do have a gay friend who has told me that when he was little, before he even knew he was a homosexual, he used to prefer sitting on his uncle's lap more than sitting on his aunt's lap. The same goes with kissing and hugging. All I'm saying is that for me, being gay is a form of mental sickness. Not a bad one, but it is still a form of sickness.[/QUOTE] That makes no sense. By that logic you're mentally ill for being a heterosexual. And don't tell me, "Being straight is normal," because there's no such thing as normal. Normality is a dumb, made up social construct. Everyone's normal, even if they suffer from awful mental illnesses like schizophrenia. If it wasn't normal it wouldn't exist in nature.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;44290980]That makes no sense. By that logic you're mentally ill for being a heterosexual.[/QUOTE] OK, those are my thoughts. Maybe homosexuality is not a mental disorder, maybe it's a preference, one you probably can't change. But that's not why I posted here, I wanted to talk about transgenderism. I expected you to disagree with the way I think trangenderism should be accepted, not with what I think about homosexuality. I respect your opinion, I can see that I may be wrong about that orientation, but that was not my main thought when I posted.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;44290980]That makes no sense. By that logic you're mentally ill for being a heterosexual. And don't tell me, "Being straight is normal," because there's no such thing as normal. Normality is a dumb, made up social construct. Everyone's normal, even if they suffer from awful mental illnesses like schizophrenia. If it wasn't normal it wouldn't exist in nature.[/QUOTE] If we look at the definition of the word, "normal" means: [QUOTE][B]1.[/B] conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural. [B]2.[/B] serving to establish a standard. [/QUOTE] And since most of the human population is straight, we can't say they aren't normal, but since only a small percentage of population is homosexual, they can be defined as abnormals, as in not normals as in not what most of the population is. Humans have been programmed to reproduce only through heterosexual sex so by definition it is the correct way for us. Being abnormal isn't always a bad thing though. Earth is abnormal in comparison to pretty much all other planets, and Earth is a pretty cool place. But if we look at the other definition, "normal" means "natural" and everything that happens in the world is technically natural so it is a bit hard to say what is and isn't normal.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;44290875]There's not even a valid correlation there. Preferring to sit one relative's lap over another's is [I]far[/I] more likely to be simply because they like that relative more than the other. Also just because you want to believe it's a sickness doesn't mean it is one. You have to back up your claims with evidence here or, at the very least, solid logic which you aren't doing.[/QUOTE] i dont like my aunt as much as my uncle hmm..... but since i dont like my aunts boobies but i love the porno stars boobies..... alice is right though there really is no correlation there. plain and simple. he could simply of not likehis aunt cause she was mean or the uncle was just simply cool, if it makes a person homosexual to like a man over a woman simply cause hes not a dick to him then color a VERY large portion of america gay.

I'm all for acceptance but there are things that should be considered. 1 - The government shouldn't grant special rights to transgenders, this include paying for your sex change treatments 2 - You shouldn't force anyone to recognize you as a want. People say what they see, if they're calling you "Sir" you need to do a better job looking like a woman and vice versa. 3 - You shouldn't force people to agree with your sexual orientation. People have the right to not like you because you're different(doesn't mean they can treat you poorly).

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44292502]I'm all for acceptance but there are things that should be considered. 1 - The government shouldn't grant special rights to transgenders, this include paying for your sex change treatments[/quote] In countries with socialized healthcare, transgender surgeries are [I]only[/I] covered after a case has been made that proves them to be necessary for the continued emotional health of the patient. This is the same as removing a hernia, or treating any other medical illness and is not in any way special treatment. [quote]2 - You shouldn't force anyone to recognize you as a want. People say what they see, if they're calling you "Sir" you need to do a better job looking like a woman and vice versa.[/quote] You shouldn't assume peoples gender, and if you do and you're wrong then [I]you've[/I] made a mistake and should be doing everything in your power to correct [B]your[/B] mistake. [quote]3 - You shouldn't force people to agree with your sexual orientation. People have the right to not like you because you're different(doesn't mean they can treat you poorly).[/QUOTE] I expect people to respect my basic human needs. Simple.

[QUOTE=Pudding~;44292543]In countries with socialized healthcare, transgender surgeries are [I]only[/I] covered after a case has been made that proves them to be necessary for the continued emotional health of the patient. This is the same as removing a hernia, or treating any other medical illness and is not in any way special treatment.[/QUOTE] So you're saying you'd need medical care to be healthy but it isn't an illness? That isn't very logical. [QUOTE=Pudding~;44292543] You shouldn't assume peoples gender, and if you do and you're wrong then [I]you've[/I] made a mistake and should be doing everything in your power to correct [B]your[/B] mistake.[/QUOTE] You shouldn't assume I'm not a pirate, but if you do me do wrong of not treating me as Captain Ragekipz I'll be sure to tell you how offended I am. Just as much as the government should provide cutlasses, ale and a ship for my emotional health. I made no mistake, I see a man and I adress a man. You're not in the power of governing how I perceive the world around me. [QUOTE=Pudding~;44292543]I expect people to respect my basic human needs. Simple.[/QUOTE] Just as you are expected to repect other people. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Trivialising and strawmanning the argument over and over, this is not debating" - Megafan))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44293513]So you're saying you'd need medical care to be healthy but it isn't an illness? That isn't very logical.[/quote] It's a medical disorder, not a psychological illness. Know the difference, live it, breathe it. [quote]You shouldn't assume I'm not a pirate, but if you do me do wrong of not treating me as Captain Ragekipz I'll be sure to tell you how offended I am. Just as much as the government should provide cutlasses, ale and a ship for my emotional health. I made no mistake, I see a man and I adress a man. You're not in the power of governing how I perceive the world around me.[/quote] Oh Strawman, if you only had a brain... [quote]Just as you are expected to repect other people.[/QUOTE] I respect everybody as a baseline. If you're a jerk, you lose respect points. It's the same way I tip -- I put five singles on the table at the start of the meal and take one away any time they screw up.

[QUOTE=Pudding~;44293562]It's a medical disorder, not a psychological illness. Know the difference, live it, breathe it.[/QUOTE] If you need medical treatment to have a mental health it's psychological illness. But I'm not the one sayint it, you are. [QUOTE=Pudding~;44293562]Oh Strawman, if you only had a brain...[/QUOTE] Am I disregarding any part of your argument? You're not a woman, but you think people should call you a woman, even if what they see is a man. AND you think it's THEIR fault. They're at fault for not guessing that you're actually prefer to be refered as a woman. [QUOTE=Pudding~;44293562] I respect everybody as a baseline. If you're a jerk, you lose respect points. It's the same way I tip -- I put five singles on the table at the start of the meal and take one away any time they screw up.[/QUOTE] I respect no one as a baseline, because respect is earned, it should not be taken for granted.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44293720]You're not a woman, but you think people should call you a woman[/QUOTE] This is where your argument stops.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;44293795]This is where your argument stops.[/QUOTE] This is not debating.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44293872]This is not debating.[/QUOTE] except zilla is right? If you're trying to debate this subject than you should recognize that it doesn't matter how you feel or think, science and medicine prove you otherwise. A transsexual is their desired gender from the moment they're born.

[QUOTE=Paige;44293911]except zilla is right? If you're trying to debate this subject than you should recognize that it doesn't matter how you feel or think, science and medicine prove you otherwise. A transsexual is their desired gender from the moment they're born.[/QUOTE] Yes, I have never objected to that. The problem is, if I people don't identify you as a woman, you have no right to demand that you're treated as a woman.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294012]Yes, I have never objected to that. The problem is, if I people don't identify you as a woman, you have no right to demand that you're treated as a woman.[/QUOTE] Why? I'm a woman. Not a man. Therefore I expect to be treated as such. Its basic human decency.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294012]Yes, I have never objected to that. The problem is, if I people don't identify you as a woman, you have no right to demand that you're treated as a woman.[/QUOTE] If I wouldn't want to identify Obama as a man, would that mean he would have no right to demand to be treated as one?

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294012]Yes, I have never objected to that. The problem is, if I people don't identify you as a woman, you have no right to demand that you're treated as a woman.[/QUOTE] Your exact quote was [Quote=you]You're not a woman, but you think people should call you a woman[/Quote] and that's scientifically and medically wrong. I don't care what you or any other joe blow thinks when you see a transsexual because you're wrong. Its even in the OP for gods sakes. Cases like david reimers proves you are born with a gender or lack thereof and its set that way. It can't be changed. Its in EVERYONE. Cis or Trans.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;44294049]Why? I'm a woman. Not a man. Therefore I expect to be treated as such. Its basic human decency.[/QUOTE] Do you even look like a woman? Can other people identify you as a woman? Human decency is dictated by culture. In feldal japan, human decency was decaptating a honorable man during sepuku. [QUOTE=Bordellimies;44294110]If I wouldn't want to identify Obama as a man, would that mean he would have no right to demand to be treated as one?[/QUOTE] Why would you not "want" to identify Obama as a man? An why would not identify Obama as a man? Do you need to learn sexual dimorphism?

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294206]Do you even look like a woman? Can other people identify you as a woman? Human decency is dictated by culture. In feldal japan, human decency was decaptating a honorable man during sepuku.[/QUOTE] What if someone looks androgynous and it would be impossible to tell their gender or sex? Or what if you have someone born male, identifying as male, but looks more female? If people would constantly mistake him for a woman, many would probably mistakenly even call him trans or a sissy, but he would still identify as man. Looks have nothing to do with gender or sex. [QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294206]Why would you not "want" to identify Obama as a man? An why would not identify Obama as a man? Do you need to learn sexual dimorphism?[/QUOTE] He was just an example (sorry if I confused you, I just really love using examples), but it could be that I wouldn't see him as a man. Judging from the reasoning in your previous post, he would have no right to demand to be called a man if I questioned his sex. That's a very faulty way to think about things.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294206]Do you even look like a woman? Can other people identify you as a woman? Human decency is dictated by culture. In feldal japan, human decency was decaptating a honorable man during sepuku.[/QUOTE] Doesn't matter what she looks like or how people can identify her. Her gender is female and thus she is a woman. [QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294206]Why would you not "want" to identify Obama as a man? An why would not identify Obama as a man? Do you need to learn sexual dimorphism?[/QUOTE] Its an example. Please at the very least post decently if you can't be bothered to learn about the subject you're "debating".

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294206]Do you even look like a woman? Can other people identify you as a woman? Human decency is dictated by culture. In feldal japan, human decency was decaptating a honorable man during sepuku.[/QUOTE] What do you define as [I]looking like a woman[/I]? Women come in all shapes and sizes with varying degrees of femininity and masculinity. Are you claiming that there are cisgirls that you would call men to their face? What gives [I]you[/I] the right to set the bar?

[QUOTE=Paige;44294234]Doesn't matter what she looks like or how people can identify her. Her gender is female and thus she is a woman. [/QUOTE] I can concede on this point. Because if identifying as a woman is all it takes to be a woman, I can just as well identify myself as a black. [QUOTE=Paige;44294234] Its an example. Please at the very least post decently if you can't be bothered to learn about the subject you're "debating".[/QUOTE] There's a very poor construction of phrase on his side. It's a matter of what want to identify Obama or what he identifies Obama. [QUOTE=Pudding~;44294251]What do you define as [I]looking like a woman[/I]? Women come in all shapes and sizes with varying degrees of femininity and masculinity. Are you claiming that there are cisgirls that you would call men to their face? What gives [I]you[/I] the right to set the bar?[/QUOTE] Sexual dimorphism. In the human race characteristics are pertinent to the male and others are pertinent to the female. If you can't propelly identify a woman you have a disorder or she's androginous.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294347] There's a very poor construction of phrase on his side. It's a matter of [B]what[/B] want to identify Obama or what he identifies Obama.[/QUOTE] Can you clarify what you mean by that? Two or more people? Majority of the population? You? What defines how many people/what kind of people get to make these decisions? Let's say 4 billion + 1 people think Obama is female, and exactly 4 billion people think Obama is male. Does this make Obama female, because the majority of the world population thinks Obama is female? What if two people die, from the group who think Obama is female, does he [I]suddenly[/I] become a man because now the majority of the world population thinks he is a man? If this wouldn't have an effect on his sex, then it should also mean that it doesn't matter what the majority thinks.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294347]I can concede on this point. Because if identifying as a woman is all it takes to be a woman, I can just as well identify myself as a black. There's a very poor construction of phrase on his side. It's a matter of what want to identify Obama or what he identifies Obama. Sexual dimorphism. In the human race characteristics are pertinent to the male and others are pertinent to the female. If you can't propelly identify a woman you have a disorder or she's androginous.[/QUOTE] I know a girl with short hair that she likes to keep cut like a twelve year old boy. She thinks it's cute. She has very little in the way of visible breasts and she's of average height to be either a boy or a girl. Dressed in winter clothes, what are your metrics for telling me she's a boy or a girl?

[QUOTE=Bordellimies;44294359]Can you clarify what you mean by that? Two or more people? Majority of the population? You? What defines how many people/what kind of people get to make these decisions? Let's say 4 billion + 1 people think a person is female, and exactly 4 billion people think this person is male. Does this make the person female, because the majority of the world population thinks they are?[/QUOTE] That looks like a perfect androginous. They have no way to identify if it's woman or a man. Would the androginous person really be mad that 4billion people can't tell his gender? Maybe. Does he have the right to demand that 4billion people him the way he wants to be treated? [QUOTE=Pudding~;44294399]I know a girl with short hair that she likes to keep cut like a twelve year old boy. She thinks it's cute. She has very little in the way of visible breasts and she's of average height to be either a boy or a girl. Dressed in winter clothes, what are your metrics for telling me she's a boy or a girl?[/QUOTE] Do I get to look at her face at least, or should I guess it blindfolded? Gender dimorphism affects faces too.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294440]That looks like a perfect androginous. They have no way to identify if it's woman or a man. Would the androginous person really be mad that 4billion people can't tell his gender? Maybe. Does he have the right to demand that 4billion people him the way he wants to be treated?[/QUOTE] That's a valid point, he might not have the right to demand strangers to treat him like a man if they don't know whether he is male or not. But does that still give you, or other people, the right to judge him based on his looks?

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294347]I can concede on this point. Because if identifying as a woman is all it takes to be a woman, [B]I can just as well identify myself as a black.[/B] [/QUOTE] get back to me on that when there's plenty of scientific and medical documents and studies on people of one ethnicity being born feeling as though they're a different ethnicity inside and then experiencing such a crippling depression and anxiety over it that it becomes its own classification and receives its own treatment. stop with the shitty strawman. its pretty obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. you don't just "identify" as a woman or man to be one, you are born with a set gender regardless of your body and that's it.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44294440]That looks like a perfect androginous. They have no way to identify if it's woman or a man. Would the androginous person really be mad that 4billion people can't tell his gender? Maybe. Does he have the right to demand that 4billion people him the way he wants to be treated? Do I get to look at her face at least, or should I guess it blindfolded? Gender dimorphism affects faces too.[/QUOTE] Oh, her face could easily be either male or female -- it's a very gender neutral face.