Transgenderism, should it be accepted or not? - General

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;42254621]I have no problem with it in adults, but I do have a problem with kids being diagnosed with GID. The criteria is really arbitrary and at what point do you consider that your child actually has a GID rather than just a phase?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ICD-10]F64.2 Gender identity disorder of childhood: A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a [I]persistent and intense distress about assigned sex[/I], together with [I]a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex[/I]. There is a [I]persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex[/I]. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behavior in boys is not sufficient. Gender identity disorders in individuals who have reached or are entering puberty should not be classified here but in F66.-.[/QUOTE] Seems reasonable enough to me. No life-changing procedures are allowed until adulthood, anyway. [QUOTE=victormeriqui_1;42254678]There's no reason to consider [transwomen] as women other than to make them feel good[/QUOTE] You're wrong. Read my post.

[QUOTE=Tweevle;42253951]Yeah, it should be accepted - like people have said it harms no one, so why restrict it? It doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure whether this is totally relevant to the OP or not, but one of the main sticking points seems to be acknowledging people's gender identity and referring to them with the correct pronouns and such. I've seen even people who consider themselves accepting and liberal-minded refusing to do that, as they seem to think doing so would be "denying reality", and illogical. IMO they are [I]not [/I]basing that on reality or logic, but their own preconceived notions, so quite apart from how rude and unpleasant it is to refuse to gender people correctly, it's also not a tenable position to hold. I wrote this post a while ago explaining why the only sensible thing to do is to refer to people as they identify:[/QUOTE] If it's a woman born with XY Chromosomes or a guy with female organs(some stuff like that has actually happened iirc but don't take my word for it) I wouldn't be so "hostile". But those are very rare cases and not what actually happens with most trannies. Most of them are just normal dudes or girls who over some dumb depression thing or just general stupidity and decide they "are a woman trapped in a man's body". This is absurd, they were born male, have a dick, XY chromosomes and fully capable of producing sperm, they are NOT women just like hardcore furries are NOT foxes. It doesn't matter if they say they are a woman in their brain and in the inside, by that logic I'm a billionaire playboy trapped in a normal guy's body. You might think my analogy is bad as it's just something I want and not something I actually believe in but all they want is to be treated like women, they are jealous of the way women are treated in society, jealous of their clothes etc, it's just something they want, but you can't always have what you want. You're right, words are assigned by people but I think it's the most logical to define females and males by the way they make babies. If you produce egg cells and have XX chromosomes you are a woman, if you produce sperm and have XY chromosomes you are a man. But you know words are just words and mean different things to different people, that's why the definition of female has been shifted now a days to make them feel better, again babysitting but I digress. Yes I could just call them women(or men) but I disagree, I do not see them as women, no matter how passable they are, I could just do it to make them feel better but why should I babysit them. Poor people aren't treated like kings, not everyone wins the lottery, not everyone looks like they want to look, it's life. They have to deal with their own problems.

[QUOTE=victormeriqui_1;42255840]-[/QUOTE] The amount of anger from your posts shows that you are severely uneducated in this topic. You are using only vicious backlash comments, ad-hominems and blatantly offensive language to make your "point". I cannot take your side seriously at this point.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;42255951]The amount of anger from your posts shows that you are severely uneducated in this topic. You are using only vicious backlash comments, ad-hominems and blatantly offensive language to make your "point". I cannot take your side seriously at this point.[/QUOTE] How am I being offensive? I'm just telling you what I think, no intention to offend anyone here

[QUOTE=victormeriqui_1;42255970]How am I being offensive? I'm just telling you what I think, no intention to offend anyone here[/QUOTE] [quote]tranny[/quote] This word has the same connotations as "faggot" "nigger" "kike" and "chink". It's used to offend.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;42255980]This word has the same connotations as "faggot" "nigger" "kike" and "chink". It's used to offend.[/QUOTE] I've been told that before but I don't see how it's so offensive, I'm just being chill, if it's so bad just ignore it, it's just a word.

[QUOTE=victormeriqui_1;42256006]I've been told that before but I don't see how it's so offensive, I'm just being chill, if it's so bad just ignore it, it's just a word.[/QUOTE] It isn't offensive to you because you're not a transsexual and I'd haver to assume you don't personally know anyone that is either. For example I wouldn't be offended if someone called me a "nigger" because I'm Caucasian and it has no relevance to me. The big point to take away is that they have not done anything to you so why hate on them.

[QUOTE=Swebonny;42252330]Thanks for making a really nice thread. Really sets an example how most threads in here should be made.[/QUOTE] Is it that decent? I was actually kinda worried that I didn't make a good enough thread honestly. I rather badly last my train of thought towards the end of writing the OP. [QUOTE=Tweevle;42253951]IMO they are [I]not [/I]basing that on reality or logic, but their own preconceived notions, so quite apart from how rude and unpleasant it is to refuse to gender people correctly, it's also not a tenable position to hold.[/QUOTE] It doesn't help at all that the majority of those who get involved in these discussions, at least here on FP, tend to be like victormeriqui_1 where they don't even attempt to consider the other point because they're so certain that they're correct. Cause you know, hundreds of thousands of psychologists spending decades studying the subject can be debunked by 5 minutes of "logical" thinking by a teenager. You are permabanned but I am going to respond to these anyways for anyone else reading who may think the same way. [QUOTE=victormeriqui_1;42254678]Turning your dick inside out or mutilating your vagina does not make you a woman/a man.[/quote] This only highlights just how little you know about the subject. Not a lot of transgender people actually get a sex change. Most stop at hormones. And either way you're wrong about the being a man/woman thing anyways since that's entirely dependant on your gender and not your physical traits. [quote]They need to accept that you can't pick your sex like you pick clothes, they should not be allowed to use the girl's bathroom because they think they're a girl.[/quote] They don't think they are a girl. By all means they mentally [I]are[/I] a girl. In fact brain scans have been able to back that view up fairly well from what I know. [quote]It just like people who think they're cats or dragons, the difference would be no one mutilates their bodies to look like cats or dragons(afaik, and I hope I'm right).[/QUOTE] The difference being that there is no species dysphoria disorder. There is a gender dysphoria disorder. One whose existence and "cure" has only been strengthened more and more over the years. People such as yourself simply think you know better than scientists who dedicate their entire lives to studying these subjects. In effect you are denying things with fairly strong scientific backing simply because you either are uncomfortable with the idea that they are right, you simply don't care and are actually trolling, or you simply completely and utterly fail in the empathy department and rather than thinking about things logically you assume that since you don't understand it and that since it doesn't affect you it's not an issue that should be considered. [QUOTE=victormeriqui_1;42255295]The babysitting interferes with me because I do not like trannies because they are disgusting, it makes me upset to basically see them get undeserved rights and treatments from society. They are disgusting not only in appearance, they are very arrogant, to pretend to be women or men, unaware of the implications, they think that because they said so and cut their dick they are a woman, and some of them(the most passable ones) have sex with people without even telling them they are actually a man(or a woman), because they think they aren't.[/QUOTE] Finding "trannies" disgusting is entirely irrelevant to whether transgender folk should have the rights to live the way they want or not. It's a (mostly) free world, you can think they are disgusting all you want. But when your opinion on them invades on their rights like you try to let happen it's not okay. You would rather a transgender person live their life completely despising themselves and highly likely to commit suicide just so you don't have to see someone you find disgusting? That's seriously abhorrent. Also you'll find that most transgender people won't have sex with people without telling them. Most of us probably wouldn't even want to be with someone who we know would have a problem with it. The only issue comes when the transgender people are (very rightfully) afraid of physical violence not telling the person they are with. Their reasoning for that is understandable for anyone who actually realizes how dangerous it can be for a transgender person, although that's still no real justification for it happening. [QUOTE=victormeriqui_1;42256006]I've been told that before but I don't see how it's so offensive, I'm just being chill, if it's so bad just ignore it, it's just a word.[/QUOTE] You and I apparently have extremely differing ideas of what chill is. Chill would be relaxed and not caring about something that's not affecting you. Which obviously is not the case with you. And you are telling people to chill over your use of the word tranny. It's offensive in the same way as calling someone a faggot, as explained above. I don't see you going around and calling people faggots then telling them to chill when they take offense to it, why is this any different? Is it just because it's more "socially acceptable" to still just because transgender people are still having to fight for their rights or what? (I realize he's perma'd so treat the questions there as generally rhetorical unless you're someone who thinks the same way and would like to explain your reasoning.)

There really isn't a reason not to accept them, they're people too and they deserve the same rights as everybody else.

While I personally disagree with the idea of transgenderism (I personally believe you are born either a male or a female and should be classified as such. However, I do believe that everyone is equal and should be accepted as such. Everyone deserves equal respect and treatment, even if I do not personally agree with certain things about them. Yes, transgenders should be accepted in society, even by those who do not agree with it like myself. (Please note that while I am personally against the act of transgenderism, I'm in no way denouncing the OP or anyone who is transgender, that would go against my belief of equal treatment and respect.)

[QUOTE=redBadger;42260708]While I personally disagree with the idea of transgenderism (I personally believe you are born either a male or a female and should be classified as such).[/QUOTE] Why?

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;42254621]I have no problem with it in adults, but I do have a problem with kids being diagnosed with GID. The criteria is really arbitrary and at what point do you consider that your child actually has a GID rather than just a phase?[/QUOTE] I agree with this. kids usually figure out and become confident in their own sexuality later in life, so I think finding their gender will work in a similar way.

[QUOTE=Aphtonites;42261668]I agree with this. kids usually figure out and become confident in their own sexuality later in life, so I think finding their gender will work in a similar way.[/QUOTE] Gender is something kids figure out really early on really. It's just something that most people don't even begin to realize because it's a subtle thing with most kids. And there's a fair amount of people who don't realize they're transgender until later anyways but that's beside the point. Some people just don't feel right early on though. When I was 4-5 I was actually really confused when people treated me like a boy simply because I did not identify at one even from such an early age. And that never changed, even when I was trying to change that part of me and be what people expected of me. If it's hormones and such that you're worried about, there is no chance of hormones at all before the age of 16 at the very earliest and 18 in most places. The closest thing to hormones before that is puberty blockers when the child hits puberty and those aren't an irreversible thing. They only delay puberty as long as they are being taken.

I don't have any problem with transgender people, and I see no reason to discriminate against them. However the only thing that confuses me is when you start getting into the ridiculous things like otherkin, trans-racial, trans-abled, trans-temporal, etc. I just don't know if these people are serious or not, and how they even wind up coming to these conclusions. I can't help but feel like people like that slightly discredit the legitimacy of transgenderism. [editline]21st September 2013[/editline] Also, question to transgendered people, is there any way you can describe what it's like to not be comfortable with your gender? How does it manifest? Doing things that is normally defined as something for the other sex? I've always been very curious.

the obvious answer is yes, there is no reason why we shouldn't as with everything in life, people should not push things into other people's faces. the main reason why people don't like transgender people is because of this "cis scum, privilege" crapola. I love it, it's hilarious, but sadly it's not even ironicly said: people actually use the whole "you check your fucking privilege you cis scum" and say it seriously. that shits stupid (and absolutely hilarious, but that's beside the point) as with everything, the worst and lowest percentage of the community gets the limelight, as they're the only ones who kick up a fuss. people don't like change, and if people expect everyone to accept trans people straight away then those people are absolute lunatics. it took hundreds of years to get equality for black people, who if you haven't noticed take up a large percentage of the community, as opposed to trans people who are like .0000001% of the world who expect equality to be given legally (all the stupid shit about gender/sex) and most of all socially - they're retarded. equality won't be given overnight. as it is obvioulsy a mental issue (born a guy but think you're a girl - somethings wrong with you), so people who don't have said mental issue find it hard to change it's the same with being gay: it's a disorder, but not nearly on the scale of thinking that you are a woman.. when you have a cock, have testosterone flowing through your veins and what have you. the thought, to me, is ludicrous, but again, it's a mental issue, and we'll never understand it equality for all, except neo-nazis

[QUOTE=isnipeu;42260790]Why?[/QUOTE] I believe people should accept who they are and I find that changing your sex goes against self acceptance. I accept who I am, even if I don't like certain aspects about myself. You change your sex, it shows that you were weak in accepting who you were. Same goes for things like plastic surgery for changing your facial aesthetics. People should just accept who they are, and that's my opinion. I support gays because they are beginning to have huge self-acceptance. However, changing your gender does not prove you were accepting of who you were. That's just my opinion.

[QUOTE=redBadger;42264250]I believe people should accept who they are and I find that changing your sex goes against self acceptance. I accept who I am, even if I don't like certain aspects about myself. You change your sex, it shows that you were weak in accepting who you were. Same goes for things like plastic surgery for changing your facial aesthetics. People should just accept who they are, and that's my opinion. I support gays because they are beginning to have huge self-acceptance. However, changing your gender does not prove you were accepting of who you were. That's just my opinion.[/QUOTE] You're coming at this from the wrong angle. By transitioning, they [I]are[/I] accepting who they are, that's kinda the whole point. A lot of transgender people spend their whole lives trying to run away from who they actually are inside, but they can't ever properly be happy unless they accept who they really are and live as the gender they identify as. Don't think of it as changing gender, because it isn't - their gender was always the same, it was just hidden. A gay man was gay even when he was in the closet and couldn't admit it to himself, and he didn't change sexual orientations when he came out, he just let people see it. Similarly, a transwoman was always a woman even before she began to transition, even if there were times that she couldn't admit it to herself. Her gender doesn't change when she comes out, she just lets it be seen, by others and by herself. [QUOTE=Pelican;42262592]the obvious answer is yes, there is no reason why we shouldn't as with everything in life, people should not push things into other people's faces. the main reason why people don't like transgender people is because of this "cis scum, privilege" crapola. I love it, it's hilarious, but sadly it's not even ironicly said: people actually use the whole "you check your fucking privilege you cis scum" and say it seriously. that shits stupid (and absolutely hilarious, but that's beside the point) as with everything, the worst and lowest percentage of the community gets the limelight, as they're the only ones who kick up a fuss.[/QUOTE] Seems a bit silly to dislike a whole group of people who suffer a lot of oppression in their day-to-day lives just because you don't like what a tiny minority of them are doing. That's like disliking all black people because one of them was an asshole to you on the street. [QUOTE=Pelican;42262592]it's the same with being gay: it's a disorder, but not nearly on the scale of thinking that you are a woman.. when you have a cock, have testosterone flowing through your veins and what have you. the thought, to me, is ludicrous, but again, it's a mental issue, and we'll never understand it[/QUOTE] Being gay isn't classed as a disorder. But that topic is what [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1271547"]this thread[/URL] is for.

Accepted, of course. Encourage, no. I believe that is it psychological issues that cause the desire to become transgender. Whether this causes a problem or is caused by a problem is another matter, but it is not natural for someone to want to be of the other gender or sex. The reason I say it should be discouraged, is the social consequences. A large portion of the world won't accept it. By becoming transgender your hurting yourself do to psychological needs, which is not a good thing.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42264863']Accepted, of course. Encourage, no. I believe that is it psychological issues that cause the desire to become transgender. Whether this causes a problem or is caused by a problem is another matter, but it is not natural for someone to want to be of the other gender or sex. The reason I say it should be discouraged, is the social consequences. A large portion of the world won't accept it. By becoming transgender your hurting yourself do to psychological needs, which is not a good thing.[/QUOTE] You can't encourage something that someone doesn't choose to be. In other words, there is no "desire" to become transgendered. You simply are.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42264863']Accepted, of course. Encourage, no. I believe that is it psychological issues that cause the desire to become transgender. Whether this causes a problem or is caused by a problem is another matter, but it is not natural for someone to want to be of the other gender or sex. The reason I say it should be discouraged, is the social consequences. A large portion of the world won't accept it. [b]By becoming transgender your hurting yourself do to psychological needs, which is not a good thing.[/b][/QUOTE] Yeah, because it'll do you much more good to be disgusted by your body and ashamed of who you are for your entire life. [editline]21st September 2013[/editline] Also it's worth pointing out, you don't [i]become[/i] transgender by coming out. In the same way a gay person doesn't [i]become[/i] gay by coming out. They were that way before and they will be after. There is no becoming, only being.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42264863']Accepted, of course. Encourage, no. I believe that is it psychological issues that cause the desire to become transgender. Whether this causes a problem or is caused by a problem is another matter, but it is not natural for someone to want to be of the other gender or sex.[/QUOTE] What evidence do you have that this is the case? I ask this because the scientists and medical professionals who have studied this issue disagree with you. [QUOTE='[sluggo];42264863']The reason I say it should be discouraged, is the social consequences. A large portion of the world won't accept it. By becoming transgender your hurting yourself do to psychological needs, which is not a good thing.[/QUOTE] Surely the problem there is a lack of social acceptance, rather than the condition itself? Do you think people should be discouraged from coming out as gay, and should pretend to be straight, because a large portion of the world doesn't accept it?

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42264863']Accepted, of course. Encourage, no. I believe that is it psychological issues that cause the desire to become transgender. Whether this causes a problem or is caused by a problem is another matter, but it is not natural for someone to want to be of the other gender or sex. The reason I say it should be discouraged, is the social consequences. [b]A large portion of the world won't accept it. By becoming transgender your hurting yourself do to psychological needs, which is not a good thing.[/b][/QUOTE] People should also choose not to be gay, right?

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42264863']Accepted, of course. Encourage, no. I believe that is it psychological issues that cause the desire to become transgender. Whether this causes a problem or is caused by a problem is another matter, but it is not natural for someone to want to be of the other gender or sex. The reason I say it should be discouraged, is the social consequences. A large portion of the world won't accept it. By becoming transgender your hurting yourself do to psychological needs, which is not a good thing.[/QUOTE] Are you suggesting we discourage people from being themselves because society is full of bigots? Because the problem isn't trans people, the problem is the bigots.

[QUOTE=Tweevle;42264632] Being gay isn't classed as a disorder. [/QUOTE] "A mental disorder or psychiatric disorder is a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, [B]and which is not considered part of normal development in a person's culture[/B]." ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder[/url]) it's a disorder

I'm all on board with the transgender rights and acceptance stuff, but isn't this thread a bit... pointless? Most of us are "yes" to acceptance, and the ones who aren't get labeled transphobic and slapped with a ban. So, what's the point? We don't really debate the topic in this thread.

I am accepting of transgendered people. But I also understand why a lot of ignorant folks might view the idea of a transgendered person with disgust. As a straight cisgendered male I have a terrible time understanding transgender identity, mainly because I think it's pretty much impossible for me to conceive of it given my own identity and my upbringing. I don't let this inability to understand turn into hate or contempt, but there are far too many people who let such differences justify bigotry. I think perhaps the transgender community would benefit from far more acceptance if they could clarify to the masses what it means to be transgendered, as I feel this is an instance where education is the only means of progress.

[QUOTE=Pelican;42266896]"A mental disorder or psychiatric disorder is a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, [B]and which is not considered part of normal development in a person's culture[/B]." ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder[/url]) it's a disorder[/QUOTE] That is kind of disgusting of you to say that. I mean I wouldn't call Wikipedia a reputable source anyway but you've used it so I will too, "Since the 1970s, the consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions globally is that homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexual orientation, while there remain those who maintain that it is a disorder." ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology[/URL]) Basically only those still stuck in the dark ages allude to it as a mental disorder in the 21st century it is regarded as a normal variation of human sexual orientation. And since it is classed as a [B]normal[/B] variation it does no longer fit in the definition you've provided. Same goes for Transexual.

[QUOTE=daschnek;42267064]So, what's the point? We don't really debate the topic in this thread.[/QUOTE] There are people debating on this very page... I believe the thread was just to get people to discuss transgenderism in a place more intolerant of outright stupidity.

[QUOTE=Pelican;42266896] it's a disorder[/QUOTE] "A mental disorder or psychiatric disorder is a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, [B]that is generally associated with distress or disability[/B], and which is not considered part of normal development in a person's culture." ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder[/url]) It's not a disorder. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Psychology"] Also:[/URL] [QUOTE=The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers]In 1952, when the American Psychiatric Association published its first Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, homosexuality was included as a disorder. Almost immediately, however, that classification began to be subjected to critical scrutiny in research funded by the National Institute of Mental Health. [B]That study and subsequent research consistently failed to produce any empirical or scientific basis for regarding homosexuality as a disorder or abnormality, rather than a normal and healthy sexual orientation. As results from such research accumulated, professionals in medicine, mental health, and the behavioral and social sciences reached the conclusion that it was inaccurate to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder [/B]and that the DSM classification reflected untested assumptions based on once-prevalent social norms and clinical impressions from unrepresentative samples comprising patients seeking therapy and individuals whose conduct brought them into the criminal justice system. [B]In recognition of the scientific evidence,[136] the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the DSM in 1973, stating that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities."[/B] After thoroughly reviewing the scientific data, the American Psychological Association adopted the same position in 1975, and urged all mental health professionals "to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with homosexual orientations." The National Association of Social Workers has adopted a similar policy. Thus, mental health professionals and researchers have long recognized that being homosexual poses no inherent obstacle to leading a happy, healthy, and productive life, and that the vast majority of gay and lesbian people function well in the full array of social institutions and interpersonal relationships.[/QUOTE]

My point is that living your life as a transgender person isn't really good for you. It is a disorder. Is it a bad thing in a perfect world where it is accepted, no. Is it a negative in world where it is not, yes. All I say is to be careful. It a a disorder that is made harmful by others bigotry, but it is still harmful. You can't fix the world in a day. I certainly hope that in the future acceptance is the way, but now it's not, and we have to deal with reality.