[QUOTE='[sluggo];42267967']My point is that living your life as a transgender person isn't really good for you. It is a disorder.[/QUOTE]
Would you say the same to those with autism? Would you look down upon those who take it to themselves to find pride in what little of their own identity remains?
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;42268069]Would you say the same to those with autism? Would you look down upon those who take it to themselves to find pride in what little of their own identity remains?[/QUOTE]
I don't look down on anyone, but others do. It is not going to get you that far in life to proclaim that you are transgender. It's the sad truth that it allot of places it will get you hurt or even killed. Being autistic isn't really something you can hide (that's like saying someone could hide their race during segregation), but being transgender is just believing you are a different gender than you were born as. It is something you can effect.
As mean as it sounds I would have told the same thing to a homosexual in the 50s. Don't let people know if you don't have to. Try to deal with it if you can. Your life will be better for it. I won't look down on you, but others will.
In a perfect world you would never have to hide who you are, but we don't live in a perfect world. Perception is changing for the better, but it isn't there yet.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42268105']I don't look down on anyone, but others do. It is not going to get you that far in life to proclaim that you are transgender. It's the sad truth that it allot of places it will get you hurt or even killed. Being autistic isn't really something you can hide (that's like saying someone could hide their race during segregation), but being transgender is just believing you are a different gender than you were born as. It is something you can effect.
As mean as it sounds I would have told the same thing to a homosexual in the 50s. Don't let people know if you don't have to. Try to deal with it if you can. Your life will be better for it. I won't look down on you, but others will.
In a perfect world you would never have to hide who you are, but we don't live in a perfect world. Perception is changing for the better, but it isn't there yet.[/QUOTE]
But the point is that a lot of gay people didn't hide their sexuality, a lot fought for it.
Now it is more accepted to be gay.
Telling people they should just stay quiet about it doesn't change the status quo.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42268105']I don't look down on anyone, but others do. It is not going to get you that far in life to proclaim that you are transgender. It's the sad truth that it allot of places it will get you hurt or even killed. Being autistic isn't really something you can hide (that's like saying someone could hide their race during segregation), but being transgender is just believing you are a different gender than you were born as. It is something you can effect.
As mean as it sounds I would have told the same thing to a homosexual in the 50s. Don't let people know if you don't have to. Try to deal with it if you can. Your life will be better for it. I won't look down on you, but others will.
In a perfect world you would never have to hide who you are, but we don't live in a perfect world. Perception is changing for the better, but it isn't there yet.[/QUOTE]
What you're trying to say is that you'd rather see it from a "safety" point of view, where the people affected are forced to hide themselves until acceptance suddenly appears.
That's not how it works at all.
[QUOTE=redBadger;42264250]I believe people should accept who they are and I find that changing your sex goes against self acceptance. I accept who I am, even if I don't like certain aspects about myself. You change your sex, it shows that you were weak in accepting who you were. Same goes for things like plastic surgery for changing your facial aesthetics. People should just accept who they are, and that's my opinion.
I support gays because they are beginning to have huge self-acceptance. However, changing your gender does not prove you were accepting of who you were. That's just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
As others have said, you're really coming at this from the wrong angle. For a transgender person self-acceptance [I]is[/I] accepting that you are the gender you identify as. And by not accepting that fact, most transgender people (who don't accept that they are transgender I mean) end up living basically empty lives really, void of any real enjoyment or satisfaction.
[QUOTE=Derubermensch;42267086]I am accepting of transgendered people. But I also understand why a lot of ignorant folks might view the idea of a transgendered person with disgust. As a straight cisgendered male I have a terrible time understanding transgender identity, mainly because I think it's pretty much impossible for me to conceive of it given my own identity and my upbringing. I don't let this inability to understand turn into hate or contempt, but there are far too many people who let such differences justify bigotry. I think perhaps the transgender community would benefit from far more acceptance if they could clarify to the masses what it means to be transgendered, as I feel this is an instance where education is the only means of progress.[/QUOTE]
It's an unfortunate part of human nature. They can't put themselves in the shoes of transgender people so it ends up being an unknown thing. People are hostile towards the unknown. And in addition many people are uncomfortable with the idea anyways which only reinforces that viewpoint. And unfortunately most people because they can't inherently just understand it will write it off as a non-issue and that a transgender person's concerns aren't actual concerns and aren't open to the possibility that they're just missing something since they don't actually understand.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42267967']My point is that living your life as a transgender person isn't really good for you. It is a disorder.[/QUOTE]
The disorder (or gender dysphoria) is the negative feelings associated with your gender identity being mismatched with your physical sex and gender presentation - once you've transitioned, the condition is effectively treated, so yes, living as a transperson [I]is[/I] good for you, compared with the alternative of pretending you're a cisperson when you're not. There's a reason scientific consensus supports hormones, surgery etc. as the best treatment for the condition.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42268105']As mean as it sounds I would have told the same thing to a homosexual in the 50s. Don't let people know if you don't have to. Try to deal with it if you can. Your life will be better for it. I won't look down on you, but others will.[/QUOTE]
If everyone had taken your advice, then we never would have had a gay rights movement - homosexuality would still be unacceptable. It didn't suddenly become acceptable by itself, people had to make the change and part of that was being open about who they were.
Also, what you're not getting is that living a lie is really, [I]really[/I] painful, especially if it's something as core to your identity as gender. People can only take it for so long. Yes, many transpeople run the risk of violence and even death to live as the people they are, and they know that, but for a lot of them it's either that, or not living at all.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42267967']My point is that living your life as a transgender person isn't really good for you. It is a disorder. Is it a bad thing in a perfect world where it is accepted, no. Is it a negative in world where it is not, yes. All I say is to be careful. It a a disorder that is made harmful by others bigotry, but it is still harmful. You can't fix the world in a day.
I certainly hope that in the future acceptance is the way, but now it's not, and we have to deal with reality.[/QUOTE]
Your point is that people shouldn't be openly transgender because bigots will hate them for it. You're suggesting that they'll be better off living in fear of being themselves, hoping that all the hate and transphobia will eventually just magically go away somehow.
But that's not how the world works. How will being trans ever become more socially accepted if there aren't any openly trans people who are willing to fight for their rights?
Well it depends - i personally agree with the fact that full recognition of a transgender person as the gender they pick, should only happen after SRS.
In fact our civil code agrees with this view and actually makes it somewhat tougher.
[quote=czech civil code 89/2012]
§ 29
Změna pohlaví
(1) Změna pohlaví člověka nastává chirurgickým zákrokem při současném znemožnění reprodukční funkce a přeměně pohlavních orgánů. Má se za to, že dnem změny pohlaví je den uvedený v potvrzení vydaném poskytovatelem zdravotních služeb.
(2) Změna pohlaví nemá vliv na osobní stav člověka, ani na jeho osobní a majetkové poměry; manželství nebo registrované partnerství však zaniká. O povinnostech a právech muže a ženy, jejichž manželství zaniklo, ke společnému dítěti a o jejich majetkových povinnostech a právech v době po zániku manželství platí obdobně ustanovení o povinnostech a právech rozvedených manželů ke společnému dítěti a o jejich majetkových povinnostech a právech v době po rozvodu; soud rozhodne, a to i bez návrhu, jak bude každý z rodičů napříště o společné dítě pečovat.
[/quote]
Basically - gender change happens at the time existing sexual organs are changed to new ones and the reproductive ability of them is disabled.
The second part deals with the fact that the person who underwent SRS will not be changed in any of his other rights, from ownership to many others, but that marriage or registered partnerships cease to exist and have to be renewed.
[editline]23rd September 2013[/editline]
Of course, at the same time SRS is covered under medical insurance and does belong under personal integrity so the person who wants to change their gender has to be allowed to do so.
[editline]23rd September 2013[/editline]
But it does set a number of legal requirements, which I don't consider wrong at all and avoids stuff like the german case from earlier.
[QUOTE=redBadger;42264250]I believe people should accept who they are and I find that changing your sex goes against self acceptance. I accept who I am, even if I don't like certain aspects about myself. You change your sex, it shows that you were weak in accepting who you were. Same goes for things like plastic surgery for changing your facial aesthetics. People should just accept who they are, and that's my opinion.
I support gays because they are beginning to have huge self-acceptance. However, changing your gender does not prove you were accepting of who you were. That's just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Apart from the responses above: if trans people "changed who they are", what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't you "change who you are" if that makes you feel better and harms nobody?
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42267967']My point is that living your life as a transgender person isn't really good for you. It is a disorder. Is it a bad thing in a perfect world where it is accepted, no. Is it a negative in world where it is not, yes. All I say is to be careful. It a a disorder that is made harmful by others bigotry, but it is still harmful. You can't fix the world in a day.[/QUOTE]
[I]Transitioning[/I] is a choice. Those who make it feel they'd prefer encountering bigotry to presenting a gender they're not comfortable with.
I personally don't think it's something I, and many other people, are capable of truly understanding. I don't even really think about why or how I consider myself a man, I just do. However, I don't think there's a whole lot about humanity that "shouldn't be accepted." Transfolk are different than me, yeah, but that's a terrible reason to treat them differently than anybody else. I accept them, and I think they should be accepted by society at large.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42268105']I don't look down on anyone, but others do. It is not going to get you that far in life to proclaim that you are transgender. It's the sad truth that it allot of places it will get you hurt or even killed. Being autistic isn't really something you can hide (that's like saying someone could hide their race during segregation), but being transgender is just believing you are a different gender than you were born as. It is something you can effect.
As mean as it sounds I would have told the same thing to a homosexual in the 50s. Don't let people know if you don't have to. Try to deal with it if you can. Your life will be better for it. I won't look down on you, but others will.
In a perfect world you would never have to hide who you are, but we don't live in a perfect world. Perception is changing for the better, but it isn't there yet.[/QUOTE]
People shouldnt hide it to live a better life. That's not how changing society works.
Yes to a degree.
Yes we should respect and accept all people equally.
No we should not have toilets and names for every gender identity under the sun.
why do we need seperated toilets in the first place? unisex bathrooms work just fine and avoid the fuss.
before the urinal argument, most outside of crap pubs have seperators.
even if that was still a problem, why should we be scared of [I]seeing[/I] genitals that aren't our own?
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42285855]why do we need seperated toilets in the first place? unisex bathrooms work just fine and avoid the fuss.
before the urinal argument, most outside of crap pubs have seperators.
even if that was still a problem, why should we be scared of [I]seeing[/I] genitals that aren't our own?[/QUOTE]
Why would you look at someone while they're peeing anyway? That's just bad toilet etiquette and kind of weird.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;42283902]Well it depends - i personally agree with the fact that full recognition of a transgender person as the gender they pick, should only happen after SRS.[/QUOTE]
Gender isn't based on the physical body, so this doesn't make much sense.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;42283902]Well it depends - i personally agree with the fact that full recognition of a transgender person as the gender they pick, should only happen after SRS.
In fact our civil code agrees with this view and actually makes it somewhat tougher.
Basically - gender change happens at the time existing sexual organs are changed to new ones and the reproductive ability of them is disabled. [/QUOTE]
Which is not only barbaric, but also violates basic human right of leaving your body physically unharmed. Which is exactly why that "rule" was dropped in Germany on 11. January 2011, among some other nonsense.
[QUOTE=Levithan;42288081]Gender isn't based on the physical body, so this doesn't make much sense.[/QUOTE]
How is not based on your physical body? If I understand correctly how it works - MtF transexuals want to be women. They don't merely want female gender roles. Same goes to FtM.
If you want the gender roles of the other sex, you can easily assume them without needing any kind of legal change.
You will merely legally be recognised by your physical gender.
And that's mostly because from a legal standpoint an objective quality is more important than a subjective one. But likewise you cannot use the benefits of a sex without changing your sex as well.
Keep in mind this is important from a legal perspective where sex is more important than gender. As such to be fully legally recognised as the gender you want to be, you have also change your sex.
And a lot of private institutions can request you to use stuff which is based on your legal sex as opposed to assumed gender.
A companies dress code might request you dress apropriate to your sex, a company can stipulate that toilets are to be sex based etc etc.
No one can stop you from assuming the gender privately, but a recognition by third parties has to be based on what you are legally defined as unless they choose to be more encompassing (they cannot consider a transgender individual after SRS and legal recognition to be their former sex for instance, but they can recognise even transitioning individuals without SRS as the gender they are transitioning to)
[QUOTE=Adama;42290180]Which is not only barbaric, but also violates basic human right of leaving your body physically unharmed. Which is exactly why that "rule" was dropped in Germany on 11. January 2011, among some other nonsense.[/QUOTE]
To me it really isn't barbaric from a certain standpoint. Again let's seperate gender and sex for a moment which most people want to do anyway.
From a gender standpoint, I could dress, act and live like a man virtually without a single issue without being legally recognised as a man if I wanted to. I would legally still be a woman by sex though and would not able to use the benefits of being a man in various areas (like certain jobs which can only be performed by men for various reasons and which are defined) And potentially third parties in their own establishments could request me to conform towards a certain situation (dress code, toilets, changing rooms and the like).
If I wanted to not only assume the gender identity of the gender I wanted to be, but also be fully legally recognised as such I would have take steps toward changing it and the state would be required to help me in that as well.
Basically keeping the objective and subjective situations different.
the topic is transgenderism, not transexualism. transexual people are also transgender, but not vice versa.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
it's bull that a transgender individual that feels fit with their current [I]body[/I] can't be recognized how they want to be. both gender and sex exist outside of the male and female binary
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42295495]the topic is transgenderism, not transexualism. transexual people are also transgender, but not vice versa.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
it's bull that a transgender individual that feels fit with their current [I]body[/I] can't be recognized how they want to be. both gender and sex exist outside of the male and female binary[/QUOTE]
Except for a lot of situations your objective reality supplants your subjective one. I'm not saying your subjective reality should be denied, in most situations it should not. But there's a number of situations where your objective reality will supplant the subjective one for one reason or another.
As such a legal way to change your objective reality in a way that makes it recogniseable to the legal framework has to exist.
so in short you're saying this 'objective reality' is basically where you as a person have to force yourself in to gender roles and typical traits? or just the genitals, where does that start and stop?
i have no idea what relevance this objective and subjective reality stuff is. the general thought is that you are what you think you are in relation to gender. objectively, without requiring any sexual modifications
I'm no bigot, just so you all know. I'll happily allow transgendered people to marry or stuff, I'm okay with it, no problem.
However, I find it a bit silly because the fact that your a male/female is set by the X/Y chromosome. Got 2 X chromosomes? Congrats, your a guy. Got 1 X and a Y? congrats, your a girl! Mutilating your genitals to become the other gender because you feel like it doesn't make a whole lotta sense.
[QUOTE=weedscopes;42295715]I'm no bigot, just so you all know. I'll happily allow transgendered people to marry or stuff, I'm okay with it, no problem.
However, I find it a bit silly because the fact that your a male/female is set by the X/Y chromosome. Got 2 X chromosomes? Congrats, your a guy. Got 1 X and a Y? congrats, your a girl! Mutilating your genitals to become the other gender because you feel like it doesn't make a whole lotta sense.[/QUOTE]
please don't bother talking here until you know what the difference between gender and sex is.
[quote=Wikipedia]The distinction between sex and gender distinguishes sex, the biological makeup of an individual's reproductive anatomy or secondary sex characteristics, from gender, an individual's lifestyle (often culturally learned) or personal identification of one's own gender (gender identity)[/quote]
Here is a dilemma that I recently heard about in my social circle. We know this transgender male who quite convincingly pulls off looking like a girl. Recently, she got a boyfriend who was not aware of the fact she was physically male. She never let this dude find that out and they got as far as kissing and oral sex before eventually he found out and, being straight, disconnected all contact from her. What are peoples opinions on this? I for one, whilst I respect any individuals choice to live their life the way they want to, would feel offended and violated had I been in this guys position.
Is it morally unacceptable to lead a straight guy on without telling him the truth about your physical gender?
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
Vice versa too, straight girl / transgender girl
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42295779]please don't bother talking here until you know what the difference between gender and sex is.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=The dictionary]noun
noun: gender
1.
the state of being male or female.
synonyms: [B]sex[/B] More[/QUOTE]
when we're talking scientific discussion, they are seperated. in general use they are often interchangable, but definitely not in this case, as exampled on almost every gender and sex based report in existance.
[QUOTE=weedscopes;42295715]I'm no bigot, just so you all know. I'll happily allow transgendered people to marry or stuff, I'm okay with it, no problem.
However, I find it a bit silly because the fact that your a male/female is set by the X/Y chromosome. Got 2 X chromosomes? Congrats, your a guy. Got 1 X and a Y? congrats, your a girl! Mutilating your genitals to become the other gender because you feel like it doesn't make a whole lotta sense.[/QUOTE]
Wrong way round, guys are 1 X 1 Y and girls are 2 X. But that's just usually, some guys have XYY and stuff.
Also if you had XXY you'd be a guy who was producing more estrogen so you'd be inclined to be more girly or perhaps feel like you belong as a girl.
[QUOTE=cricket50;42295863]
Is it morally unacceptable to lead a straight guy on without telling him the truth about your physical gender?
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
Vice versa too, straight girl / transgender girl[/QUOTE]
Not at all is it acceptable. As a person who strongly supports LGBT rights and equality, I've found it hilarious that several transsexuals/homosexuals I've talked to have bashed me as "homophobic" or "hypocritical" because I have no sexual interest in transgendered individuals nor will I ever. I support their rights and equal treatment fully, but I'm heterosexual, and something about having a relationship with a transgendered male is off-putting to me. It's not homophobia or hate, I just don't wanna have sex with a transgendered man. You don't have to be gay to support LGBT rights.
Anyone who leads people on or bashes people for not showing sexual interest in transsexuals is just as idiotic as the people who bash transsexuals to begin with.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42295596]so in short you're saying this 'objective reality' is basically where you as a person have to force yourself in to gender roles and typical traits? or just the genitals, where does that start and stop?
i have no idea what relevance this objective and subjective reality stuff is. the general thought is that you are what you think you are in relation to gender. objectively, without requiring any sexual modifications[/QUOTE]
Gender|gender roles and similar stuff tied to your own selection - it's why a lot of civil codes actually allow you to use a name you choose or pseudonym. But your selection would not be legally binding - benefits for one sex (though in legal systems usually known as gender), certain nondiscriminatory ordnaces from private insitutions that do seperate on sex (swimsuit operator can throw out a sexually female who wants to be reocgnised as a male in cases where said person will use a male swimsuit and having bared breasts on grounds of indecency, changing rooms if the operator of the establishment wants it etc)
Sexual change - you are legally recognised as the other sex, often with some stuff on what you have to do. Once that happens you gain full benefits of your changed gender, from a legal standpoint as well as from third entities.
Essentially this comes from a view that the way you act privately should be free to your choice, it shouldn't be limited by specific gender roles or similar non binding things - you are free to choose what you want.
But to maintain a certain stability and legal expectation from others a difference between people who are merely transgendered and those who are transexual has to exist.
The one thing a transgender person will have to live for for now is that a lot of documents are going to be confusing gender and sex, since many people who write them do as well.
[QUOTE=cricket50;42295863]Here is a dilemma that I recently heard about in my social circle. We know this transgender male who quite convincingly pulls off looking like a girl. Recently, she got a boyfriend who was not aware of the fact she was physically male. She never let this dude find that out and they got as far as kissing and oral sex before eventually he found out and, being straight, disconnected all contact from her. What are peoples opinions on this? I for one, whilst I respect any individuals choice to live their life the way they want to, would feel offended and violated had I been in this guys position.
Is it morally unacceptable to lead a straight guy on without telling him the truth about your physical gender?
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
Vice versa too, straight girl / transgender girl[/QUOTE]
That's a very iffy thing in my opinion. While I can understand her wanting to not acknowledge being born male and fearing for her own safety it's still dishonest. And it could make her even less safe when she gets someone who is very homophobic. I think the best option is being completely open about it with whomever you're dating and being sure they're okay with it. It sucks for the transgender person that because of the simple mistake of being born physically different than you identify you can't simply live that way without having to worry but that's the reality of the situation, especially at this point in time.
She's quite lucky that all the guy did was break off contact over that. Transgender people have been murdered over that sort of thing before.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;42295422]To me it really isn't barbaric from a certain standpoint. Again let's seperate gender and sex for a moment which most people want to do anyway.
From a gender standpoint, I could dress, act and live like a man virtually without a single issue without being legally recognised as a man if I wanted to. I would legally still be a woman by sex though and would not able to use the benefits of being a man in various areas (like certain jobs which can only be performed by men for various reasons and which are defined) And potentially third parties in their own establishments could request me to conform towards a certain situation (dress code, toilets, changing rooms and the like).
If I wanted to not only assume the gender identity of the gender I wanted to be, but also be fully legally recognised as such I would have take steps toward changing it and the state would be required to help me in that as well.
Basically keeping the objective and subjective situations different.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it isn't barbaric to you, because you're not the one forced to undergo a risky and complicated operation which has the potential of crippling and mutilating you just so you can officially be recognized as the person you are on the inside. It is basically "eat or die", "do the operation or forever be haunted by your legal documents clocking you on a daily basis."
It makes many daily actions very unpleasant or even frightening; going shopping? Enjoy having to out yourself to the cashier and possibly everyone else who happens to overhear you when you pay by card because it still carries your old, legal name.
Awaiting a package that requires identification or have to pick up a package from the post office? Have fun outing yourself because you have to show your ID card which holds your old name and probably photo.
Need to see a doctor or dentist? Clocked.
Rely on public transportation for work, school etc? Enjoy getting outed every day because your permanent ticket carries your old name.
Oh, and don't forget the fun of having to apply for jobs with your old name and certificates.
You're afraid of doing anything that's reliant on your legal documents in some form.
I have all of this happen to me, it isn't fun having to explain myself every time someone asks me why i'm trying to use "someone else's" ID card, debit card etc, I have been lucky that so far everyone was understanding and accepting, many aren't as lucky.
By next week i'll be officially able to change my name and gender on all legal documents, even down to my birth certificate without any care about what is or isn't between my legs, because it doesn't matter. We conceal our body just like everybody else, no one will ever see my private parts besides me and my boyfriend, who, btw, is straight and has no problem to see me as the person i really am, so why can't others, who will never even see what my private parts are, do the same?
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