[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42250864]The fact that this is even an argument in 2013, where a ton of people are in favor of gay and lesbian rights, is kind of depressing. [/QUOTE]
I don't think you realize, but the United States is almost exclusively the only place where there are a "ton" of people in "favor" of gay and lesbian rights.
[QUOTE=Grabigel;42302582]I don't think you realize, but the United States is almost exclusively the only place where there are a "ton" of people in "favor" of gay and lesbian rights.[/QUOTE]
If that's the case why is the US so far behind quite a few other countries in terms of LGBT rights? A few places in Central/South America and Europe have far superior LGBT rights currently.
[QUOTE=Adama;42302056]Maybe it isn't barbaric to you, because you're not the one forced to undergo a risky and complicated operation which has the potential of crippling and mutilating you just so you can officially be recognized as the person you are on the inside. It is basically "eat or die", "do the operation or forever be haunted by your legal documents clocking you on a daily basis."
It makes many daily actions very unpleasant or even frightening; going shopping? Enjoy having to out yourself to the cashier and possibly everyone else who happens to overhear you when you pay by card because it still carries your old, legal name.
Awaiting a package that requires identification or have to pick up a package from the post office? Have fun outing yourself because you have to show your ID card which holds your old name and probably photo.
Need to see a doctor or dentist? Clocked.
Rely on public transportation for work, school etc? Enjoy getting outed every day because your permanent ticket carries your old name.
Oh, and don't forget the fun of having to apply for jobs with your old name and certificates.
You're afraid of doing anything that's reliant on your legal documents in some form.
I have all of this happen to me, it isn't fun having to explain myself every time someone asks me why i'm trying to use "someone else's" ID card, debit card etc, I have been lucky that so far everyone was understanding and accepting, many aren't as lucky.
[/QUOTE]
Names are seperate from your sex and you can change it on good grounds if you so pick. There's really many different aspects which are partially separate while having some overlap.
Gender, sex, your legal name are all 3 different things.
I personally think a cure could be found one day, but it'd hopefully go better than the cure for mutants in the X-men universe xP.
a cure could seem convenient but the truth is almost any type of cure related to altering the brain has its drawbacks, usually the person would lose who they are and it'd end up making things worse. seemingly the only real way to cure it would be to improve the sex change surgery so it more accurately changes the physical attributes if someone can get it to the point you actually transplant all the appropriate organs and get the to work it might have a greater effect.
from there though would be the social problems that come with the surgery as it is today, some friends might disown you, some might look at you differently, family might reject you or just treat you differently.
the real start to the cure is acceptance this is a condition. it is. its not something you get by choice like aids or lung cancer, its something your born with like Aspergers, ADHD, Tourrets, and various other social and mental disorders, most of which have treatments nowadays, most wont completely recover from something like ADHD or aspergers its who they are, but they can learn to live with it and it eventually gets better, i know it has for me.
transgenderism goes deep though, it'd have to be found early childhood and helped from there, its a tough road but if others would learn to understand, we wouldn't need to have a 20 year debate about it. simple fact is its a no choice condition. if they can atleast run genetic tests for it one day to identify it, and the world can be cool about it, i'll be happy knowing my friends who told me and possibly those who havn't can disclose the fact they are transgender and NOT have worry about what it might start.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;42258085] (I realize he's perma'd so treat the questions there as generally rhetorical unless you're someone who thinks the same way and would like to explain your reasoning.)[/QUOTE]
I actually read the entirety of your post replying to this perma'd user, and while I don't exactly support his views, I have to ask that is transgenderism found in other animals as well then?
Because I would assume so, otherwise it is indeed a disorder or a mental flaw of sorts that occurs either directly at birth or later in life (likely during childhood as it's generally seen as the most crucial part of growing up), which means that it shouldn't be necessarily be cherished or acted upon, but rather 'cured' from, like he suggested in his own way.
[QUOTE=Xilo;42306318]its not something you get by choice like aids or lung cancer[/QUOTE]
what
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;42306509]I actually read the entirety of your post replying to this perma'd user, and while I don't exactly support his views, I have to ask that is transgenderism found in other animals as well then?
Because I would assume so, otherwise it is indeed a disorder or a mental flaw of sorts that occurs either directly at birth or later in life (likely during childhood as it's generally seen as the most crucial part of growing up), which means that it shouldn't be necessarily be cherished or acted upon, but rather 'cured' from, like he suggested in his own way.[/QUOTE]
Well considering that homosexuality is found in social animals I'd warrant a guess that transgenderism might have the possibility of occurring in them as well. But it's not exactly something that we would be able to prove easily since it's a fairly subtle thing and communication is an integral part of figuring it out. (I also don't think there's very many scientists searching for transgenderism in animals either. :v:)
Also what you suggest as a cure is a fairly large issue with the sort of viewpoint I was countering. The only "cure" for transgenderism currently is for the transgender person to transition or otherwise live the way they feel most comfortable. Any other potential cure either causes more harm than good (camps to "cure" transgenderism by basically shaming them, simply hiding it away, those both vastly increase risk of suicide and don't remotely help) or we can't look into because we're not even 100% certain on how transgenderism is caused yet.
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Slowbro;42306617]what[/QUOTE]
I'm fairly certain he's not saying that AIDS or lung cancer are a choice, just a bit of funky wording. I think he's actually comparing it to being as much a choice as either of those things. (Although I think someone who's batshit insane could sort of voluntarily get AIDS if they really wanted to, although I don't think anyone would advise that.)
[QUOTE=Slowbro;42306617]what[/QUOTE]
you chose to have sex with someone. they happened to have a deadly disease called aids. CHOICE
you chose to smoke, you now have lung cancer. and im sure you can get it without smoking but how often do you ACTUALLY hear about it without it being crammed in a second hand smoke kills campaign message? and thats my point. both of those deadly deadly things, that can debilitate and make life miserable for you, (like transgenderism can) are choices. how often have you heard in the news "this man was nearly beaten to death by a group of teenagers cause he had aids"? not nearly as much as because he was gay or he was transgender or he was a guy waiting in line for the next gen gaming console and tried to cut in line. people are stupid and ignorant, they cling to either political or religious belief , and use it as a means to justify their actions. people think the witch hunts are over, sadly we still do it.
I have no idea how to translate what I feel about this into words...but I'll try
Yes, people have every right to express themselves in any way they like, so long as no one is physically endangered by their actions
there's nothing wrong with being different from other people, despite what society wants you to think
[QUOTE=Xilo;42306318]I personally think a cure could be found one day, but it'd hopefully go better than the cure for mutants in the X-men universe xP.
a cure could seem convenient but the truth is almost any type of cure related to altering the brain has its drawbacks, usually the person would lose who they are and it'd end up making things worse. seemingly the only real way to cure it would be to improve the sex change surgery so it more accurately changes the physical attributes if someone can get it to the point you actually transplant all the appropriate organs and get the to work it might have a greater effect.
from there though would be the social problems that come with the surgery as it is today, some friends might disown you, some might look at you differently, family might reject you or just treat you differently.
the real start to the cure is acceptance this is a condition. it is. its not something you get by choice like aids or lung cancer, its something your born with like Aspergers, ADHD, Tourrets, and various other social and mental disorders, most of which have treatments nowadays, most wont completely recover from something like ADHD or aspergers its who they are, but they can learn to live with it and it eventually gets better, i know it has for me.
transgenderism goes deep though, it'd have to be found early childhood and helped from there, its a tough road but if others would learn to understand, we wouldn't need to have a 20 year debate about it. simple fact is its a no choice condition. if they can atleast run genetic tests for it one day to identify it, and the world can be cool about it, i'll be happy knowing my friends who told me and possibly those who havn't can disclose the fact they are transgender and NOT have worry about what it might start.[/QUOTE]
why should it be cured? why should people be cured for being who they are? it isn't some disease, it's someones identity.
and before you use the argument along the lines of "well you could say cancer is part of someone's identity", think about the fact that transgenderism isn't cancer or any other life-threatening disease. it's how someone is identified. you don't identify someone by saying "Cancerous person", you refer to them by their name OR with pronouns such as he or she.
[QUOTE=Boaraes;42307638]why should it be cured? why should people be cured for being who they are? it isn't some disease, it's someones identity.[/QUOTE]
you can't cure stupid, unfortunately
I think he means 'cure' in the sense that gender confusion, which results in the desire of a sex change, is a psychological disorder. I don't think he means 'cure' in some kind of bigoted/"cure the gays" sort of way.
That's one thing I will say that may be controversial to some. Yeah, I do fully support LGBT, and I fully see all humans, transgender or not, as equal. However, your own identification of who you are is based on biology, much like how sex drive is based on reproduction. Both homosexuality and transgenderism are psychological disorders resulting from a mal-alignment between biology and psychology. Disorder doesn't mean something negative or wrong or unwanted, in its basest terms, it just means a disconcert from biological normality: most males born male desire to be a male, most females born female desire to be female. The base reproductive desire of males is to get with females, and vice-versa. So in that sense, I think that's what the 'cure' poster is referring to.
[QUOTE=Boaraes;42307638]why should it be cured? why should people be cured for being who they are? it isn't some disease, it's someones identity.[/QUOTE]
That's true, but it does cause severe depression and suicide quite often so I can see why people would consider it worthwhile stopping those from occurring over actually having that part of your identity.
Of course, depression and suicide might be non-existant if transgenderism was more accepted, which was something he did point out later should happen over a physical cure.
You can't cure someone's identity, no such thing as a cure for that. They are who they are, that's none of your business or worries as it is their identity and not yours.
The people that are causing the severe depression need to be cured, the bullies and crazy people attacking based purely on identity.
[QUOTE=Boaraes;42307638]why should it be cured? why should people be cured for being who they are? it isn't some disease, it's someones identity.
and before you use the argument along the lines of "well you could say cancer is part of someone's identity", think about the fact that transgenderism isn't cancer or any other life-threatening disease. it's how someone is identified. you don't identify someone by saying "Cancerous person", you refer to them by their name OR with pronouns such as he or she.[/QUOTE]
you obviously didn't read my whole post, nowhere in it did i say it HAD to be cured. its not a disease to be purged the option of a cure would bring comfort to everyone, but as i further stated in most cases since transgenderism is mainly a Brain thing curing it would likely be dangerous to the patient and best case scenario would completely change them as a person. so no transgenderism does NOT have to be cured dummy, but the OPTION might feel right for some people. theres a cure for cancer but not everyone does it, its a CHOICE. so next time try reading the whole side of the story before accusing me, a friend of Onyx3173, of even THINKING it should be cured. i only stated that a cure as an option wouldn't be a smart option, but the option itself should exist.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;42306665]Well considering that homosexuality is found in social animals I'd warrant a guess that transgenderism might have the possibility of occurring in them as well. But it's not exactly something that we would be able to prove easily since it's a fairly subtle thing and communication is an integral part of figuring it out. (I also don't think there's very many scientists searching for transgenderism in animals either. :v:)
Also what you suggest as a cure is a fairly large issue with the sort of viewpoint I was countering. The only "cure" for transgenderism currently is for the transgender person to transition or otherwise live the way they feel most comfortable. Any other potential cure either causes more harm than good (camps to "cure" transgenderism by basically shaming them, simply hiding it away, those both vastly increase risk of suicide and don't remotely help) or we can't look into because we're not even 100% certain on how transgenderism is caused yet.[/QUOTE]
Very well.
Xilo's actually an irl friend of mine. He's quite supportive of transgender people actually for people who were thinking he's not.
[QUOTE=Xilo;42310518]a friend of Onyx3173[/QUOTE]
Alice3173 now you doofus. :v:
I feel; that yes, they should be accepted, because they ARE human beings, however, as hypocritical as it seems, I don't think that L;GBT activists should make such a massive deal about it in media.
[sp]i like bailey jay :v:[/sp]
[QUOTE=Xilo;42306318]I personally think a cure could be found one day, but it'd hopefully go better than the cure for mutants in the X-men universe xP.
a cure could seem convenient but the truth is almost any type of cure related to altering the brain has its drawbacks, usually the person would lose who they are and it'd end up making things worse. seemingly the only real way to cure it would be to improve the sex change surgery so it more accurately changes the physical attributes if someone can get it to the point you actually transplant all the appropriate organs and get the to work it might have a greater effect.
from there though would be the social problems that come with the surgery as it is today, some friends might disown you, some might look at you differently, family might reject you or just treat you differently.
the real start to the cure is acceptance this is a condition. it is. its not something you get by choice like aids or lung cancer, its something your born with like Aspergers, ADHD, Tourrets, and various other social and mental disorders, most of which have treatments nowadays, most wont completely recover from something like ADHD or aspergers its who they are, but they can learn to live with it and it eventually gets better, i know it has for me.
transgenderism goes deep though, it'd have to be found early childhood and helped from there, its a tough road but if others would learn to understand, we wouldn't need to have a 20 year debate about it. simple fact is its a no choice condition. if they can atleast run genetic tests for it one day to identify it, and the world can be cool about it, i'll be happy knowing my friends who told me and possibly those who havn't can disclose the fact they are transgender and NOT have worry about what it might start.[/QUOTE]
Take it this way - a potential "cure" (for lack of a better word) could be a way to easily switch your body completely around.
It could potentially get rid of most of the negative issues a lot of people with it have. It allows the perception of what you are be with the reality of what you are, completely mesh together, remove a lot of the associated stress etc.
Cure is a bad word in this case though, since most of the issues are mere symptoms, they aren't directly caused by a different self view.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;42312843]Xilo's actually an irl friend of mine. He's quite supportive of transgender people actually for people who were thinking he's not.
Alice3173 now you doofus. :v:[/QUOTE]
oh right it did change xP
[QUOTE=wraithcat;42314974]Take it this way - a potential "cure" (for lack of a better word) could be a way to easily switch your body completely around.
It could potentially get rid of most of the negative issues a lot of people with it have. It allows the perception of what you are be with the reality of what you are, completely mesh together, remove a lot of the associated stress etc.
Cure is a bad word in this case though, since most of the issues are mere symptoms, they aren't directly caused by a different self view.[/QUOTE]
well then maybe Treatment would sound better? i was just goin with what was wrtten on the OP. a full brain transplant into another body would be fantastic im sure but we're probably far off from something like that being common. the best step for the surgery would probably be to get it to the point actual dontated organs could be used for the patient to give them the actual full on traits of their gender. but before anyone would be allowed to go that far, all the medical big wigs would want a definitive way to prove transgenderism in any given individual. there is an overall cure, but it consists of many treatments.
improved surgery for those who choose to do it
psych evals to ensure all goes well
Support from the community
acceptance from friends and family
the last 2 should be the main focus for now, the first 2 would likley come later.
people really dont like freedom in gender definition and all. We like to maintain our roles defined and simple, so this crossovers or new ways of looking at a sexual role make people uneasy and alienated to the most simple known concepts we once had.
I really feel a person should be able to do whatever he or she wants as long as theres no harm to another person, and i mean real harm not just getting "offended", as wide as that definition is. But i do think a person should look and rethink more about why they feel more identified with another role instead of jumping to a conclusion, not that it changes anything but that feeling can come from different sources, some more reasonable than others, or some that the actual solution may not be what they think.
Of course you have to treat any transgender person as an equal, they are people that have dignity and therefore deserve to be treated well. However, I don't agree with transgenderism in general; people will likely call me a bigot or something but I don't think people should be encouraged to have sex changes, I believe it is potentially damaging to a person mentally and emotionally to go through that enormous change. For that reason sex changes in children is totally wrong in my mind and actually evil since children do not fully understand the wider implications of a sex change. There should be a minimum age of 16 for this kind of thing imo. Even then, teenagers are hormonal and don't always do what is in their best interests, its honestly a very difficult issue and I think its wrong for people to rather flippantly dismiss it and say 'do whatever makes you happy' because that assumes that everyone knows what is best for them personally, and assumes that they will make good choices at a relatively young age that will impact their whole life.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
Really sorry if I have confused transgender will transexual, I don't think there's anything wrong with dressing/behaving as/being a woman even if you were born a man, but surgery and hormone treatment etc. doesn't sit well with me unless you're a mature, responsible adult. I don't think people with mental illnesses such as depression and bi-polar disorder should be granted that kind of sex change for obvious reasons. If you're depressed as a man, becoming a woman won't change that, in fact it could easily make things worse.
[QUOTE=Luafox;42325854]First of all, it's extremly rare for anyone under 16 to actually have a sex change. No one is encouraged to do anything, it's a well informed and thought out process that is only done by request of the patient.
Also why shouldn't depressed people be able to go through the same treatment as other transpeople? Did you not think the entire reason they're depressed might be because their sex doesnt match their genderidentity?[/QUOTE]
I've had depression, and I believe I wasn't thinking in a very rational manner when it was affecting me. Plus most people are prescribed medication which also can have a deep effect on your mental state. I don't think its wise to make such decisions when your mind is in that state. Depression is temporary, a sex change is a little more permanent I imagine.
i've been depressed before, i know how it can feel (to an extent where my parents knew i was depressed and asked if i'd be allright by myself in the house as we have a good selection of guns), you cant let the world get to you, it'll try all it wants but as far as anyone should care, your human, you happen to have a unique condition, the people that bully you about it are in fact living trolls who fear what you stand for/
most of me and my friends were made fun of for being nerds and asperger kids or as they like to say, retards. i usually let the nerd thing slide in school but someone called me a retard me and my friends let them know that flies about as well as saying nigger they will get a ass kicking.
its gonna be hard to find people you trust, the first people you could hope to get to back you up on any decisions you make should be your parents. if they choose to remain ignorant like some i know the next best thing is a friend, even if its just 1 or 2. my parents probably dont know about my friends transgenderism but i know that if it came to the worse and he moved in, they'd accept it anyway they say she's a good kid (though they say he's a good kid atm).
[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;42309477]That's true, but it does cause severe depression and suicide quite often so I can see why people would consider it worthwhile stopping those from occurring over actually having that part of your identity.
Of course, depression and suicide might be non-existant if transgenderism was more accepted, which was something he did point out later should happen over a physical cure.[/QUOTE]
You kind of just refuted your own argument.
Transgenderism itself is not a depression-causing agent. It's the people around them who drive them to that point with the constant ridicule.
[QUOTE=Boaraes;42327758]You kind of just refuted your own argument.
Transgenderism itself is not a depression-causing agent. It's the people around them who drive them to that point with the constant ridicule.[/QUOTE]
Are sure its not possible that transgenderism is a side-effect of depression and feeling of not belonging/not having an identity?
[QUOTE=jobizzle;42325724]Of course you have to treat any transgender person as an equal, they are people that have dignity and therefore deserve to be treated well. However, I don't agree with transgenderism in general; people will likely call me a bigot or something but I don't think people should be encouraged to have sex changes, I believe it is potentially damaging to a person mentally and emotionally to go through that enormous change. For that reason sex changes in children is totally wrong in my mind and actually evil since children do not fully understand the wider implications of a sex change. There should be a minimum age of 16 for this kind of thing imo. Even then, teenagers are hormonal and don't always do what is in their best interests, its honestly a very difficult issue and I think its wrong for people to rather flippantly dismiss it and say 'do whatever makes you happy' because that assumes that everyone knows what is best for them personally, and assumes that they will make good choices at a relatively young age that will impact their whole life.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
Really sorry if I have confused transgender will transexual, I don't think there's anything wrong with dressing/behaving as/being a woman even if you were born a man, but surgery and hormone treatment etc. doesn't sit well with me unless you're a mature, responsible adult. I don't think people with mental illnesses such as depression and bi-polar disorder should be granted that kind of sex change for obvious reasons. If you're depressed as a man, becoming a woman won't change that, in fact it could easily make things worse.[/QUOTE]
Don't take this the wrong way but you seem quite ignorant of transgenderism in general. There are a lot of fail safes in place to prevent exactly what you are saying shouldn't happen. To the point of often getting in the way of legitimate cases of transgenderism because they're so strict.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;42327948]Don't take this the wrong way but you seem quite ignorant of transgenderism in general. There are a lot of fail safes in place to prevent exactly what you are saying shouldn't happen. To the point of often getting in the way of legitimate cases of transgenderism because they're so strict.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, I admit I am quite ignorant. However I can see it becoming more prevalent in the future as it becomes approved by the general public, for better or for worse.
it'll be a long road but only cause people keep building the road. if people stopped, learned about it, and then just finally build a town at the end of that road and called it acceptance, a majority of the issues would go away. but nope people build on, the road never changes.
I'm not a cat just because I feel and dress like one.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is not debating" - Megafan))[/highlight]
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