Transgenderism, should it be accepted or not? - General

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;42446275]How common is this though to the point of where it shouldn't be accepted?[/QUOTE] did you read the article?

[QUOTE=maximizer39v2;42446232]I'll provide the other side. I'm a right-leaning Christian. I don't approve of this. But [I]please[/I], guys, I don't have negative attitudes towards transgender people. Just transgenderism itself. One of my biggest problems with it is teaching impressionable kids about it when they're young, and influencing them to think that they're gay/transgender/other things, such as this (read it in a doctor's waiting room): [url]http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20712691,00.html[/url][/QUOTE] Why do you think it's people influencing the kids to think they're transgender and not the kids expressing their own feelings? Hell, even in that article she's saying she enjoys her life so much better now.

why is encouraging children to express their feelings regardless of what it is bad? that isn't the same as forcing the children to be x or y. that's encouraging the children to come to terms with them possibly being x or y and giving them the choice of following their own path in that respect

[QUOTE=maximizer39v2;42446349]did you read the article?[/QUOTE] You have to pay to get past the synopsis.

[QUOTE=Whiterfire;42432117]This isn't a debate. There isn't a debate when there is only arguments for one side.[/QUOTE] Most threads on MD are "controversial" topics that are made just for one side of the argument.

[QUOTE=_Kent_;42482407]You have to pay to get past the synopsis.[/QUOTE] Ah, my bad, I didn't look further as I'd already read it and frankly it made me sick.

[QUOTE=Stents*;42490941]Most threads on MD are "controversial" topics that are made just for one side of the argument.[/QUOTE] The issue with this topic in particular is that more often than not the people arguing against it can't actually back up their viewpoint with anything more than their own logic while those who are supportive of transgenderism tend to be able to cite many studies and such backing their view up. And since not being able to actually back your point up in MD can be bannable I think most people who can't back their point up just avoid it instead.

I'm unsure why this is a debate thread. It's like homosexuality. You can't say it's "wrong" there is no argument against it, and if you agree it should "not be allowed" you'll be a homophobic, or a transphobic vice versa Sure people can see things like "religion" "they'll be bulled" and etc, but they're all invalid reasons that have been disproved many times. What exactly is your goal for this thread? Since anyone who says it shouldnt very obviously has no grasp of how transgenderism works, and "not being a cock to everyone"

It would hopefully help to educate those people. It doesn't happen often but there have been a few people who have at least partially changed their opinions on transgender people when they've been more properly informed.

I guess

As long as something doesn't hurt anyone else, I don't see why something shouldn't be accepted.

[QUOTE=PederPauline;42494695]As long as something doesn't hurt anyone else, I don't see why something shouldn't be accepted.[/QUOTE] My masturbating in my car at McDonalds doesn't hurt anyone else yet it's not accepted.

[QUOTE=theVendetta;42593260]My masturbating in my car at McDonalds doesn't hurt anyone else yet it's not accepted.[/QUOTE] Except that's kinda, you know, illegal.

I can accept people who because of the shape of a particular part of their brain see themselves as the opposite gender (something that has been scientifically studied [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure[/URL]). I cannot, however, accept people who identify themselves as anything related to "genderqueer" or "a third gender" because at that point it seems like they're traveling into special snowflake territory.

[QUOTE=SM0K3 B4N4N4;42598580]I can accept people who because of the shape of a particular part of their brain see themselves as the opposite gender (something that has been scientifically studied [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure[/url]). I cannot, however, accept people who identify themselves as anything related to "genderqueer" or "a third gender" because at that point it seems like they're traveling into either special snowflake territory.[/QUOTE] Genderqueer tends to just refer to folks along the gender spectrum that don't identify explicitly with either extreme.

[QUOTE=Levithan;42599024]Genderqueer tends to just refer to folks along the gender spectrum that don't identify explicitly with either extreme.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]gender spectrum[/QUOTE] why would there be a gender spectrum if there isn't a sex spectrum? Hermaphordites have both sexes separately, intersexuals have a combination of both sexes, and there are even people born without a sexual organ at all (though sometimes surgery is needed so they can urinate). I don't see a spectrum here. No matter how much you want to say gender isn't related to sex, it really is. Identifying as the opposite gender or not identifying as a gender at all means you feel like you either belong as the opposite sex or don't belong in any sex what so ever. Why do you treat gender and sex completely differently if they are so dependent on each other?

I grew up with a would be racist, traditional, white cowboy fans only sort of dad. His views were plain and simple. I have grown with his ideals as I see them as the most humane and right way to live with one another. He does not care whether you are black/white/asian/mexican/ect, he will be your friend as long as you don't do anything that provokes him or something stupid; he will then proceed to spout the nastiest racial slurs you have ever heard. He also does not care whether you are gay/lesbian/whateverelsethereis, as long as you don't impose your ideals on him or try to get handsy. What I mean by handsy is, a gay man started attempted to "get with him" and started grabbing him at a bar. My dad warned him and after the second grab he laid him out and we left. He does have gay friends, both men and women. Short Version: Do not try to convince me or impose upon me your ideals. You do whatever you want in your house and I'll do whatever I want. Note: Obviously this does not apply to certain topics such as raising a child(beating a child, other abuse, ect), but it does apply well to the matter of transgender. In high school I had friends with gender issues and the sort. I took the same ideals as my dad as they do seem the best route. I was and still am friends with those people. Whether they turned out to be gay or straight.

[QUOTE=SM0K3 B4N4N4;42599953]why would there be a gender spectrum if there isn't a sex spectrum?[/QUOTE] Think of it more along the lines of sexuality in that regard. Sex has a spectrum in a way but most of those are related to physical health issues or genetic defects. Gender (and sexuality) are both internal mental concepts. Sex being a spectrum is unfeasible since most people who don't properly fall at one end or the other are infertile so it mostly gets bred out while in the case of gender (or even sexuality, ie: I know a gay guy who has five children) that's far from the case.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;42600799]Think of it more along the lines of sexuality in that regard. Sex has a spectrum in a way but most of those are related to physical health issues or genetic defects. Gender (and sexuality) are both internal mental concepts. Sex being a spectrum is unfeasible since most people who don't properly fall at one end or the other are infertile so it mostly gets bred out while in the case of gender (or even sexuality, ie: I know a gay guy who has five children) that's far from the case.[/QUOTE] except most sexualities that aren't gay/straight/bi/pan(bi but with trans included) are regarded as fetishes. Again, it seems like a spectrum but it's more like a binary gradient with some leeway. You're still either attracted to men, women or both (or none), the difference with pansexual being you regard men and women differently from people who think you are born into your gender. I still don't see how gender or sexuality is a spectrum unless you take fetishes (zoophilia, pedophilia, sexual furries) into account, and that's a whole other debate.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;42596328]Except that's kinda, you know, illegal.[/QUOTE] Which, to be fair, was his point.

Being transgender is not illegal in most places. (Nor should it be.) It's not even a remotely good comparison anyways, you can go masturbate in private easily. You can't simply be transgender in private.

I've known some nice people who have switched genders, so this is really easy for me. Should I accept them? Yep. They're cool. They do their thing. They accept me. What's the problem? I think the problem comes when you look at it from a complete outsider's perspective. Some of these people would be completely miserable, possibly even suicidal, if they hadn't become the people they are today. People should do whatever the fuck makes them happy, and I've met some really happy trannies.

[QUOTE=theVendetta;42593260]My masturbating in my car at McDonalds doesn't hurt anyone else yet it's not accepted.[/QUOTE] As you run the risk of potentially scarring someone if they see it. Last time I checked that is harm done.

It's not like every transgender is walking about, shaking hands with whomever they meet, saying "Hello sir/ma'am, I'd like you to know that my privates aren't what they used to be", and dropping their pants for all to see. Just like how homosexuals don't do that, nor do heterosexuals, or people of any other shade of the sexual spectrum. They're (in most cases) proud of who they are, and don't really care what you think. So yeah, they should be accepted. Just like everyone else. On the globe. But, as long as we all have our freedom to think our own way, someone will always say "Now that's not right and I don't like it", and will proceed to 'not accept' said thing. I don't see what the big deal is, anyway. So what if that girl used to be a guy? You don't have to deal with it.

If transgender people who are transitioning cannot be accepted, then what do you expect them to do? The major cause of transition is gender dysphoria - the discomfort of having the wrong sex that doesn't fit with what gender they identify with. A transgender person cannot just decide that they can be a gender that fits with their sex, they are stuck with a gender that is incongruent with their sex. Gender dysphoria cannot be switched off either. The only way to treat it is with actual transition which would enable them to live happily, or with strong anti-depressants (which are not guaranteed to prevent gender dysphoria completely).

I've noticed that a lot of people will say that e.g. if a transgender female has XY chromosomes, that they'll always be male. Or if they have a penis/testis, or if they're a transgender male with XX and a womb/vagina, that they'll always be a woman. The problem with these arguments is that they don't give substantial reason for invalidating their gender identity. This is like saying that because God gave them x, they'll always be x and cannot be z for example. Or maybe it's like saying that if someone is born poor, they can never be rich even if they do acquire vast sums of wealth.

[QUOTE=amdX2;42710009]I've noticed that a lot of people will say that e.g. if a transgender female has XY chromosomes, that they'll always be male. Or if they have a penis/testis, or if they're a transgender male with XX and a womb/vagina, that they'll always be a woman. The problem with these arguments is that they don't give substantial reason for invalidating their gender identity. This is like saying that because God gave them x, they'll always be x and cannot be z for example. Or maybe it's like saying that if someone is born poor, they can never be rich even if they do acquire vast sums of wealth.[/QUOTE] Their reason is that they think everyone should be referred to by sex which is intrinsically wrong. Some people struggle with the idea that gender and sex are separate though and some simply don't want to accept that fact or wish to troll people with it.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;42710267]Their reason is that they think everyone should be referred to by sex which is intrinsically wrong. Some people struggle with the idea that gender and sex are separate though and some simply don't want to accept that fact or wish to troll people with it.[/QUOTE] The idea of referring to someone by their gender seems equally wrong to me. Either a) their gender is irrelevant or b) you might get their gender wrong and offend them, so it's a net negative. As a helper for noticing how weird it is, try replacing references to gender with something equally personal and easy to get wrong: religion. "It belongs to him." becomes "It belongs to the Muslim." Awkward. Hungarian is a nice language in this regard because their pronouns (e.g. ő) are genderless. The entire idea that you [I]must[/I] identify as part of some gender category is ridiculous and is just a holdover from socially conservative times when we were obsessed with separating the sexes. The fact is that [I]any[/I] use of gender categories encourages classification of people as "normal" and "abnormal". So while moving labels like "transgender" into the "normal" group could be viewed as progress, it's still trapped inside the system that allows people to be persecuted in the first place. There's a documentary on asexual people that shows them being picked on by homosexuals at a gay pride parade. While the hypocrisy is obvious, what often isn't pointed out is that the conflict fundamentally depends on each group desiring to fit in a certain category. Even when one category is finally accepted, there will always be others popping up and fighting for equal treatment. It's for that reason that a headline like "Germany Recognizes Third Gender" is far less exciting than something like "Germany Recognizes That Gender is an Arbitrary Label" would be.

Identifying someone by sex is the same idea as your example with referring to someone as "the Muslim" though. You refer to someone by their identity which is what gender is. Not by their physical attributes. Completely getting rid of gender roles, if it ever happens, is not something that is simply going to happen overnight at all. It could take decades or more easily because it is a rather ingrained part of our culture.

How is "Muslim" a physical attribute? Anyway... I think this preoccupation with identity is the problem. You say that gender [i]is[/i] identity, but it's much more complicated than that. Identity can be made up of many different things. What if someone values their gender very little as part of their identity? What if people prefer to keep their gender private? Now every time you want to refer to that person you need to violate their privacy to make sure that you get their gender right. It's unnecessary. I can understand people being proud of their gender and desiring support and reinforcement from their peers, but you have to understand that that same desire can be problematic for others. Take for example discrimination in the workplace. If a manager was selecting employees for promotion, but specifically mentioned each employee's gender when considering their merits, it could be viewed as a sign of discrimination. But this is very hard to avoid! Any time you refer to one of them with a gendered pronoun you are specifically mentioning their gender. The problem isn't getting each employee's gender [i]right[/i], it's mentioning each employee's gender [i]at all[/i]. If you want to refer to a person generically, you should be able to just refer to them as a person. If you want a specific person, use their name. If you don't know their name you should use something objective like their appearance. To come back to the religion analogy, I think that referring to someone as "he" just because they fit the masculine stereotype is just as bad as referring to someone as "Muslim" just because they are brown skinned and wearing a turban.