I think you took what I meant the wrong way with the Muslim comment. I meant something that isn't a direct part of their personal identity. Edit: I'm not sure that actually clarified rereading it. By personal identity here I mean what someone would desire to be identified as. I don't think many Muslims or other religious folk would desire to be referred to as "the Muslim" or "the Christian" or such. (Note just in case it's not clear: Each paragraph here pertains to each of the paragraphs in your post respectively.)
Your examples there are really moot points. Of course in those instances you would have to violate privacy, of course a transgender person who looks male and identifies female will have to correct people on that. That can't be avoided and most people who DO identify differently than normal have come to terms with that fact.
Well seeing as gender in the case of a promotion is completely irrelevant I don't see why gender would actually be brought up.
I refer to someone by name or generically as "they" or something otherwise neutral until I know better what they would prefer. I think that's really the best case scenario overall.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;42776406]By personal identity here I mean what someone would desire to be identified as. I don't think many Muslims or other religious folk would desire to be referred...[/QUOTE]
My point is that this is a problematic definition of personal identity. Your preference to be referred to by your gender conflicts with my preference to [I]not[/I] be referred to by my gender. You agree with me that people can object to being referred to by their race or religion but then make an exception for gender, saying that people should just "come to terms with that fact". Why?
[QUOTE=Alice3173;42776406]Well seeing as gender in the case of a promotion is completely irrelevant I don't see why gender would actually be brought up.[/QUOTE]
It would be brought up implicitly by the standard use of pronouns. Which is why I completely agree with you about using the neutral "they".
There is an odd point of agreement between jerks who refuse to recognize alternative genders and people with alternative genders who struggle for recognition: they both view gender as a fundamental aspect of identity (the point of contention being the former refusing to accept to the sex/gender separation). I argue against that common point.
Transgenderism is something that should be respected, but, as what has already been stated, transgenders should not take offense to having the wrong pronouns attributed to them. If somebody looks female but identifies as male, they should not take offense to being referred to as "she."
And the following may skew my views a little bit, but I feel as if the new, sudden emphasis on gender, sex and sexuality is ridiculous in every regard. It seems as if everybody I know is trying to create an identity for themselves. Because of this, people are legitimately going around unironically referring to themselves as "panromantic demisexual otherkin grey fox" or something to an equally ridiculous extent. It leads me to believe that a lot of people who identify themselves as such are just looking for attention in a sense. It's not a very legitimate thought and I don't mean to dehumanise anybody for making this claim, but the whole new rise in and gender awareness would sound a lot less dumb if people didn't come up with these ridiculous identities.
The one that springs to my mind on this subject is demisexuality. I'm not quite sure where this term originated, but the entire concept of it just doesn't make any sense at all. It seems to boil down to "asexual except when an emotional bond is formed." This doesn't make much sense, as sex and emotion are quite distant. Though they are enhanced by one another, they are two entirely different things; namely, one is a drive and the other is emotion. Because of the fallacy-ridden identity that is demisexuality, I find it difficult to take anything like "otherkin" or anything of the like. People seem to be inventing identifiable traits just so they can be unique, it seems.
I know that this addresses sexuality more than it does transgenderism, but I feel as if it's still a good point to address. I'm not writing off transgender people as degenerates, liars or attention whores, but at the same time they shouldn't expect people to immediately, without any prior knowledge, identify you by what they would identify themselves as. I'll use myself as an example in my argument. I'm not a transgender, but I'm a slightly feminine-looking male. People have mistaken me for a girl before, and it doesn't bother me at all. I'm aware that the level of tolerance to this kind of "incorrectness" varies from person to person, but at the same time they take it too much to heart. It could be because of the identity issues that may arise out of being transgender, but they do hold everybody to unrealistic expectations. If you have a masculine frame and are sporting a beard, but identify as female, it's not exactly fair to go ape on people who incorrectly identify your gender.
I'm entirely for equal rights for everybody. It's just a minor annoyance that I've come by.
To me, this is fairly simple - but also rather sexist(?).
1. Does <X> look like a <A> and act like an <A>?
Then <X> will be treated like an <A>
If not, then no dice.
Example:
If you're a lady wearing lady clothes and you waltz into a men's room, you can be sure I'll throw a fit until you leave. If you're however wearing guy clothes and don't cause too much of a stir, I see no issues with it.
This middle-ground grey-area shit where people are still wearing their 'original' genders clothes and attitude is not good enough. Either commit fully, or not at all. I for one will support you if you commit, but you can't pick and choose.
[QUOTE=Larikang;42777240]My point is that this is a problematic definition of personal identity. Your preference to be referred to by your gender conflicts with my preference to [I]not[/I] be referred to by my gender. You agree with me that people can object to being referred to by their race or religion but then make an exception for gender, saying that people should just "come to terms with that fact". Why?
It would be brought up implicitly by the standard use of pronouns. Which is why I completely agree with you about using the neutral "they".
There is an odd point of agreement between jerks who refuse to recognize alternative genders and people with alternative genders who struggle for recognition: they both view gender as a fundamental aspect of identity (the point of contention being the former refusing to accept to the sex/gender separation). I argue against that common point.[/QUOTE]
This is an entirely different debate that really has nothing to do with whether transgenderism should be accepted or not...
[QUOTE=xxncxx;42778844]This is an entirely different debate that really has nothing to do with whether transgenderism should be accepted or not...[/QUOTE]
It has everything to do with it. If you accept that gender is not a fundamental part identity, then the question of whether to accept transgenderism becomes moot.
Not accepting someone's chosen identity in that case would be as silly as not accepting someone's favorite color. I know some people might object to my use of the word "chosen" since some people feel that it's not a choice what gender they have, but the beauty of my viewpoint is that it doesn't matter. If you have always felt in your heart that you were a different gender or one day just decided that you were a different gender, it is equally acceptable.
[QUOTE=Larikang;42787245]It has everything to do with it. If you accept that gender is not a fundamental part identity, then the question of whether to accept transgenderism becomes moot.
Not accepting someone's chosen identity in that case would be as silly as not accepting someone's favorite color. I know some people might object to my use of the word "chosen" since some people feel that it's not a choice what gender they have, but the beauty of my viewpoint is that it doesn't matter. If you have always felt in your heart that you were a different gender or one day just decided that you were a different gender, it is equally acceptable.[/QUOTE]
Arguing whether gender should be recognized as a part of identity is not arguing whether transgenderism should be accepted. It may be related but its not the main topic at hand so I don't understand why you're going through so much trouble to argue it in this thread. Perhaps make another thread to discuss it?
... Why is this even a debate?
While I strongly disapprove of transgenderism on the whole, there's no reason why it shouldn't be accepted. I'm not transgendered and probably won't understand their mentality, so why should they be unworthy of my respect?
Let everyone be who they want to be.
With my fairly limited knowledge on the subject, I see transgenderism as a disorder.
I do not believe that fostering that disorder by going through HRT is healthy. That said, I don't care what the hell you do it's your own body.
If you are born as a man you are born as a man physically, and mentally. You have male hormone levels in your brain which extremely influences your behavior.
I can sorta understand why an individual would want to change genders since everyone is born different, but I cannot condone surgically switching genders for a multitude of reasons. One reason is that the surgery usually doesn't do much other than permanently ruin your genitalia. Another is that I do not find it ok [U]at all[/U] to have sex with somebody who is unknowingly having sex with a trans-gender. Then again I come from a Christian background so my views must be very different then others.
As a transgender person I feel like my opinion is definitely biased lol. But I can see why some people would not want to accept it. Religious people tend to have issues with us because of their religion stating that we shouldn't alter our bodies. Many people involved in the science community are still on the side that believes we just all have disorders; which is perfectly okay with me as well.
However most of the scientifically educated people and religious people I have met have had no problem accepting me for who I am. They don't believe in my reasons or actions, but they support me because i'm pursuing what makes me happy, and it isn't hurting anyone, not even myself.
[QUOTE=Wastedfate;43014430]Religious people tend to have issues with us because of their religion stating that we shouldn't alter our bodies.[/QUOTE]
It's cool that they choose to believe that. It's not cool when they discriminate or actively make someone's life harder simply because they don't subscribe to the same beliefs.
[QUOTE=YourStalker;42994001]I can sorta understand why an individual would want to change genders since everyone is born different, but I cannot condone surgically switching genders for a multitude of reasons. One reason is that the surgery usually doesn't do much other than permanently ruin your genitalia. Another is that I do not find it ok [U]at all[/U] to have sex with somebody who is unknowingly having sex with a trans-gender. Then again I come from a Christian background so my views must be very different then others.[/QUOTE]
if someone has undergone SRS, why are they obligated to tell someone of their history?
of course, they probably will at some point, but i don't see why you think it's so necessary. most transgender people would rather just forget about that fact and be able to live as they want to. it doesn't have any negative effect on either party.
[editline]29th November 2013[/editline]
it also doesn't ruin your genitalia.
[QUOTE=.Lain;43016631]if someone has undergone SRS, why are they obligated to tell someone of their history?
of course, they probably will at some point, but i don't see why you think it's so necessary. most transgender people would rather just forget about that fact and be able to live as they want to. it doesn't have any negative effect on either party.
[editline]29th November 2013[/editline]
it also doesn't ruin your genitalia.[/QUOTE] Why would that be something you hide from your partner? If they don't accept you for who you are then you shouldn't be with them in the first place.
If I had a girlfriend that had gone through SRS previously and she didn't tell me about it, but I found out some other way, then I'd feel hurt because she doesn't trust me enough to be honest about it.
[QUOTE=isnipeu;43040816]If I had a girlfriend that had gone through SRS previously and she didn't tell me about it, but I found out some other way, then I'd feel hurt because she doesn't trust me enough to be honest about it.[/QUOTE]
While you have every right to feel hurt about it you might try thinking of it from her point of view as well. In addition to simply wishing she had been born physically a girl and wanting to put her past life behind her there's always the fear of how someone is going to react. And often enough, especially when it comes to someone a transgender person is dating who doesn't know, it can turn out quite violent.
[QUOTE=Perfumly;42990279]With my fairly limited knowledge on the subject, I see transgenderism as a disorder.
I do not believe that fostering that disorder by going through HRT is healthy. That said, I don't care what the hell you do it's your own body.
If you are born as a man you are born as a man physically, and mentally. You have male hormone levels in your brain which extremely influences your behavior.[/QUOTE]
Why would HRT not be the healthy choice? Wouldn't it be more healthy as opposed to forcing yourself to live a body that doesn't match your gender? If you ask me, I think HRT is the most liberating choice a transgendered person can make.
Shunnnnn! shun the non belivers shuunnnnn.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("this isn't how you post in mass debate" - postal))[/highlight]
nothing in the bible that says god is against altering your image. religion is all up in arms against transgender because it is something they refuse to try and understand. faith is blind to the answers around them so i doubt religion will ever accept anything not covered by their story book.
[QUOTE=theVendetta;42593260][QUOTE=PederPauline;42494695]As long as something doesn't hurt anyone else, I don't see why something shouldn't be accepted.[/QUOTE]
Me masturbating in my car at McDonalds doesn't hurt anyone else yet it's not accepted.[/QUOTE]
The reason it's not accepted is because people don't want to live in a world where someone could masturbate in public with you as a target. Yes, it doesn't make anyone uncomfortable if you're doing it in the parking lot when no one is around. It becomes uncomfortable when the target knows that someone is masturbating while looking at them or that the masturbator is thinking about you (still while in public). It feels like you're being stalked, which I think is illegal in most places (?). You could say you're not targeting anyone, but people won't trust you, so no masturbating in public.
This is more or less the reason it's not accepted. I shouldn't have to explain why stalking makes you feel uncomfortable..
[QUOTE=isnipeu;43040816]Why would that be something you hide from your partner? If they don't accept you for who you are then you shouldn't be with them in the first place.
If I had a girlfriend that had gone through SRS previously and she didn't tell me about it, but I found out some other way, then I'd feel hurt because she doesn't trust me enough to be honest about it.[/QUOTE]
it's a part of your history you should have the right to leave behind. i'm sure most people will tell them eventually or find out, but why should they have to talk about something that mentally and possibly physically pains them to bring up?
the whole reason most people go through with SRS and HRT is to leave their old identity behind. their feelings take priority over what you think are trust issues, which in reality, aren't.
If I hear one more transgendered person cry about the fact there isn't an "other" option for genders in most games like Pokemon etc I'll snap. Considering when you first pick up games you're a kid (starting out) that's not right for it to be brought onto a child's mind. It'll just confuse the poor buggers.
But yes,
Transgenders or [B]anyone[/B] for that matter can do their own thing as long as they don't try to make everything seem against them and whine.
[QUOTE=.Lain;43080840]it's a part of your history you should have the right to leave behind. i'm sure most people will tell them eventually or find out, but why should they have to talk about something that mentally and possibly physically pains them to bring up?
the whole reason most people go through with SRS and HRT is to leave their old identity behind. their feelings take priority over what you think are trust issues, which in reality, aren't.[/QUOTE]
No one's feelings takes priority over telling the truth. No one gets a free pass in holding back a significant thing from their partner. Holding something like that back can affect a relationship in a billion ways, nearly all of them negative.
Secrets have no place in a relationship, liars have no place in a relationship.
[QUOTE=mollow;43084527]If I hear one more transgendered person cry about the fact there isn't an "other" option for genders in most games like Pokemon etc I'll snap.[/QUOTE]
I know alot of transgender people and I haven't heard any of them say they want an 'other' option in games.
I would like to see some people 'whining' about this, thanks.
[QUOTE=mollow;43084527]If I hear one more transgendered person cry about the fact there isn't an "other" option for genders in most games like Pokemon etc I'll snap. Considering when you first pick up games you're a kid (starting out) that's not right for it to be brought onto a child's mind. It'll just confuse the poor buggers.[/QUOTE]
I don't think keeping children in ignorance is a good idea at all. Spreading awareness is important. For me personally at least, life would be better now if I'd known transition was a thing then.
[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;43085208]I know alot of transgender people and I haven't heard any of them say they want an 'other' option in games.
I would like to see some people 'whining' about this, thanks.[/QUOTE]
tumblr.com
[editline]6th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Luafox;43088241]First of all, introducing kids at an early stage to the concept of different gender identities and non-conformative gender roles is important because it'll help raise acceptance and break gender stereotypes. Why would you even suggest that it's not right to tell kids about it? Kids are much smarter and more accepting of things than people think.
Second, I think it'd be better if games had different character bases to choose from, sorta like saints row 3 and 4. Why do you even get upset that some people want something that'll make them feel comfortable? Honestly I don't really even want an other option, I wish there wasn't so much focus on dividing people into categories based on their gender.
Animal crossing new leaf lets you wear whatever clothes you want and have whatever hairstyle you want (though not instantly) no matter which sex you picked (which isn't even the first question like in Pokemon) and I think that's pretty cool.
What does this even mean?[/QUOTE]
Oh no, of course it is! Don't get me wrong, I agree, but it's not something that has to be purposely made aware of. Y'know, just include it but don't actually make a big deal about it. Otherwise you create segregation and it defeats the point. It has to be tactile. You cannot have a child's game saying "choose here if you're transgender" It's the same for school teaching. Don't make it seem out of the norm off the bat and the kids won't know any better to just agree (Which is good in this case)
And the last part you quoted, I meant that someone's views shouldn't be shoved in other people's faces even if it's for awareness. There is a difference between awareness of a topic and pretending everybody is out to get your "movement"
[editline]6th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=NeoDement;43085654]I don't think keeping children in ignorance is a good idea at all. Spreading awareness is important. For me personally at least, life would be better now if I'd known transition was a thing then.[/QUOTE]
Indeedy but it wasn't a common topic to talk about with older games. It's unfair for people to bash game companies for "ignoring" [B]current[/B] social topics.
I don't want that option in games. I just want more young peoples transgender awareness.
[QUOTE=mollow;43084527]If I hear one more transgendered person cry about the fact there isn't an "other" option for genders in most games like Pokemon etc I'll snap. Considering when you first pick up games you're a kid (starting out) that's not right for it to be brought onto a child's mind. It'll just confuse the poor buggers.
But yes,
Transgenders or [B]anyone[/B] for that matter can do their own thing as long as they don't try to make everything seem against them and whine.[/QUOTE]
how do you people never see the irony in whining about how much all the "whining" annoys you and makes your life oh-so-hard
"they can do whatever they want as long as they never try to make me consciously aware that they actually can't, because I just want to live in my bubble where everything is already perfect and I never have to deal with confrontation."
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;43090612]how do you people never see the irony in whining about how much all the "whining" annoys you and makes your life oh-so-hard
"they can do whatever they want as long as they never try to make me consciously aware that they actually can't, because I just want to live in my bubble where everything is already perfect and I never have to deal with confrontation."[/QUOTE]
wat.
For a start, you can't generalize me negatively into a certain group of people because I aired a pet peeve of mine lol
I didn't say it makes my life hard nor does it keep me up at night. There is a complete difference with over-forcing views that everybody is already AWARE of just to make the point more obvious.
It isn't ignorant to say you don't want somebody to bring up the fact they are transgender or whatever else at any given chance. This goes with everything. Not wanting to hear about it 24/7 doesn't mean I'm going to live in my cosy little bubble and straight-out block off everybody with a different opinion. - Regardless of the latter (because that isn't what this is about); certain communities get carried away with trying to bag on anyone who might not agree with[I] them.[/I]
If people want to over-complicate absolutely everything with endless labels that they have to confine themselves to in order to exist; then that's their deal. :v:
[QUOTE=mollow;43091515]views that everybody is already AWARE of[/QUOTE]
Last I checked most people are still stupidly ignorant about transgenderism.
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