Transgenderism, should it be accepted or not? - General

[QUOTE=mollow;43088908]tumblr.com[/QUOTE] If you are letting Tumblr influence your opinion of an entire group of people, you probably should rethink your stance.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;43093207]Last I checked most people are still stupidly ignorant about transgenderism.[/QUOTE] sfdlfdffds really?? i'm curious; how so? (I guess I've been taking this from my perspective where I understand transgenderism so I can't see why someone wouldn't want to accept it.)

[QUOTE=mollow;43098878]sfdlfdffds really?? i'm curious; how so? (I guess I've been taking this from my perspective where [U]I understand transgenderism[/U][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=mollow;43084527]Transgenders or [B]anyone[/B] for that matter can do their own thing as long as they don't try to make everything seem against them and whine.[/QUOTE] Yeah no, generalizing transgender people as 'whining' then using Tumblr as an example of why you came to that conclusion shows a lack of understanding on what transgender people actually want.

[QUOTE=mollow;43098878]sfdlfdffds really?? i'm curious; how so? (I guess I've been taking this from my perspective where I understand transgenderism so I can't see why someone wouldn't want to accept it.)[/QUOTE] That first part is complete spam and useless. How so? You haven't talked to many people about the subject have you? At best the majority of people have hard about it but either have massive misconceptions about it or simply know nothing about it in the first place. And unless you've worded things extremely badly your own understanding of the subject seems rather lacking itself honestly.

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;43098907]Yeah no, generalizing transgender people as 'whining' then using Tumblr as an example of why you came to that conclusion shows a lack of understanding on what transgender people actually want.[/QUOTE] sorry but i dont see why not wanting to hear about something 24/7 is not understanding. I've got several transgender friends who don't go on about it all the time but we can still have a conversation about it if they need to talk because I can see where they're coming from. People who use internet culture as a means for awareness tends to differ from people who (as an example) don't use it. Including tumblr.

[QUOTE=mollow;43099057]sorry but i dont see why not wanting to hear about something 24/7 is not understanding.[/QUOTE] You know I didn't say that right? Whining is something you label a kid as doing when it doesn't get it's way and it starts crying. People wanting this 'other' gender in video games (which you still haven't linked a single source on by the way) is a bit ridiculous, you implied very heavily that transgender people being unhappy with something is whining. That's not the case and instead makes you sound obnoxious by saying that is so. Basically everything IS against transgender people, if that doesn't give them the right to express how unhappy that makes them, then what do you propose does that won't be construed by you as 'whining'? [QUOTE]I've got several transgender friends who don't go on about it all the time but we can still have a conversation about it if they need to talk because I can see where they're coming from.[/QUOTE] Okay, I'm glad for you. Do you tell them to stop whining when they are unhappy with the way the world works and how it treats them? [QUOTE]People who use internet culture as a means for awareness tends to differ from people who (as an example) don't use it. Including tumblr.[/QUOTE] Okay then, but this is relevant in what way? I took issue with you not bothering to give source on this stupid 'other' gender in games. I never mentioned people who don't use the internet as a source of awareness so why are you saying this? I asked for a source on this other gender, you just said Tumblr. That was stupid and basically a waste of time for me to read. If you are going to use that to justify you saying 'these people should stop whining' then it's up to you to show me where you are getting it from when I ask, I shouldn't have to hunt down stories in order to say "Oh yeah you are totally right."

[QUOTE=Alice3173;43098964]That first part is complete spam and useless. How so? You haven't talked to many people about the subject have you? At best the majority of people have hard about it but either have massive misconceptions about it or simply know nothing about it in the first place. And unless you've worded things extremely badly your own understanding of the subject seems rather lacking itself honestly.[/QUOTE] I most probably have worded what I originally said wrong. I'm not against transgender people, and I'm not directly targeting transgenders. It was just an example- [I]and a specific one at that -[/I] of how people can go over the top with bagging on random shit and slapping "awareness" on it. There is whining for an unfair reason, and then there is informing others of a topic, awareness. I don't talk to people about the subject of transgenderism because the people in my surroundings are very much like-minded to me and accept close to everything without being purposely ignorant about it. If I don't know what negative things are said about a certain subject it doesn't mean I'm some arrogant douche-bag who can't see right from wrong and doesn't want to listen. [editline]7th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Tomo Takino;43099106]You know I didn't say that right? Whining is something you label a kid as doing when it doesn't get it's way and it starts crying. People wanting this 'other' gender in video games (which you still haven't linked a single source on by the way) is a bit ridiculous, you implied very heavily that transgender people being unhappy with something is whining. That's not the case and instead makes you sound obnoxious by saying that is so. Basically everything IS against transgender people, if that doesn't give them the right to express how unhappy that makes them, then what do you propose does that won't be construed by you as 'whining'? [/QUOTE] I wish I could link to the original post on Tumblr. I did find this, when dropping keywords into Google. [url]http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/f323/being-transgendered-pokemon-fan-71272/[/url] However, I'm not going to start openly bashing a source that I didn't originally have on my mind. The OP of the above link is what I'm failing to comprehend as to why someone would bring it up. (and many other replies say that below) Frankly I would have thought people who are transgender have to deal with a whole lot more than just the gender of a character on a game. It seems miniscule which is why I know not ALL transgenders think this way. If I implied that I believe all transgenders want to complain and "whine" about everything, that isn't what I meant. [QUOTE]Okay, I'm glad for you. Do you tell them to stop whining when they are unhappy with the way the world works and how it treats them? [/QUOTE] No. [I]That would be something my parents would do if I ever had a problem. - Sheer ignorance and not wanting to hear any sort of problem so they can continue in their own little cosy world and then complain if people mention a small difficulty they might be facing. (I'm just wondering if some of that might be subconsciously rubbing off on me, I hope not...)[/I] Regardless, I realize the amount of bullshit that my friends and many other people that are the 1% so to say have to go through constantly just to be who they are and to the best of my ability I try to empathize with them. [QUOTE]Okay then, but this is relevant in what way? I took issue with you not bothering to give source on this stupid 'other' gender in games. I never mentioned people who don't use the internet as a source of awareness so why are you saying this? I asked for a source on this other gender, you just said Tumblr. That was stupid and basically a waste of time for me to read. If you are going to use that to justify you saying 'these people should stop whining' then it's up to you to show me where you are getting it from when I ask, I shouldn't have to hunt down stories in order to say "Oh yeah you are totally right."[/QUOTE] Frequenting on Tumblr and a huge influx of posts leads most to half-reading and/or skipping massive chunks of information. Considering I am part of the latter it's no surprise I may be demonstrating that right now? Originally I didn't want people to agree with me and be like "o ya oyaaaa u so right mollow wow amaze" blindly, that is what I wanted to discuss and hopefully gain some knowledge on the topic.

Being trans myself I'm sort of biased, but I guess I can give an actual explanation for anyone who doesn't really agree with me. Fetuses are female "by default" and males develop from what's basically a female "starting point" (actually why men have nipples). In the first month of fetal development, if the fetus is supposed to be male, it gets a blast of testosterone that affects its physical development, triggering it to develop as a male. In the third month, it's supposed to get a secondary blast of testosterone which sets the brain to develop in a male fashion in tandem with the rest of the body. In male-to-female transgender folks, this second blast of testosterone during fetal development is either insufficient to cause the brain to develop as a male one, or simply is never received. Though it's debatable exactly [I]how[/I] they differ, it's a well-known scientific fact that male and female brains are physically different in many ways. Having a female brain, or at least mostly female, inside of a male body obviously causes some severe problems for the person so afflicted. This is what causes [I]physical dysphoria[/I] - that is to say, intense mental anguish over having "the wrong body" that most transgender folks experience - and a good portion of [I]emotional dysphoria[/I] - that is to say, intense mental anguish over having to live as "the wrong gender." So, contrary to popular belief, transgender people don't simply [I]"want to be a (wo)man,"[/I] but actually have a physical cause behind it all, and I think transgenderism would be properly classified as a developmental disorder. Transgenderism [B]cannot be cured, only treated.[/B] (Apologies for largely leaving out female-to-males in this post, but it's not really known what causes FtM transgenderism because there's been much less research on them, unfortunately - only enough to determine that the developmental causes are different from those that result in transgenderism in MtFs. If anyone has questions about this stuff, feel free to PM me here or on Steam, because I love to explain things for people.) (also JUST FOR THE RECORD I fucking hate those tumblrshit morons who want to abolish male and female pronouns and call everyone shi/xi/xe/zi/whateverthefuck that shit's retarded as fuck holy shit)

[QUOTE=Kaiwren-;43141727] (also JUST FOR THE RECORD I fucking hate those tumblrshit morons who want to abolish male and female pronouns and call everyone shi/xi/xe/zi/whateverthefuck that shit's retarded as fuck holy shit)[/QUOTE] I don't understand what you mean here, because the only times I've seen those pronouns used are by those that don't identify with either of the binary genders, somewhere in between, or some other gender, and they've asked others to refer them by those pronouns.

That's not really a biased post at all. In fact it's one of the most well written and fact-based posts I've seen about the subject.

[QUOTE=Levithan;43141924]I don't understand what you mean here, because the only times I've seen those pronouns used are by those that don't identify with either of the binary genders, somewhere in between, or some other gender, and they've asked others to refer them by those pronouns.[/QUOTE] There are quite literally people on tumblr who think that the very ideas of "male" and "female" are repressive, and that they not only [I]should[/I] be abolished, but [I]need[/I] to be, and part of that is no longer saying "he" or "she" and using neologistic pronouns that don't even look like English words in their stead. [QUOTE=Alice3173;43141936]That's not really a biased post at all. In fact it's one of the most well written and fact-based posts I've seen about the subject.[/QUOTE] Thanks. I generally do my best to approach things from an objective viewpoint, particularly when they affect me personally.

[QUOTE=Kaiwren-;43141727]Being trans myself I'm sort of biased, but I guess I can give an actual explanation for anyone who doesn't really agree with me. Fetuses are female "by default" and males develop from what's basically a female "starting point" (actually why men have nipples). In the first month of fetal development, if the fetus is supposed to be male, it gets a blast of testosterone that affects its physical development, triggering it to develop as a male. In the third month, it's supposed to get a secondary blast of testosterone which sets the brain to develop in a male fashion in tandem with the rest of the body. In male-to-female transgender folks, this second blast of testosterone during fetal development is either insufficient to cause the brain to develop as a male one, or simply is never received. Though it's debatable exactly [I]how[/I] they differ, it's a well-known scientific fact that male and female brains are physically different in many ways. Having a female brain, or at least mostly female, inside of a male body obviously causes some severe problems for the person so afflicted. This is what causes [I]physical dysphoria[/I] - that is to say, intense mental anguish over having "the wrong body" that most transgender folks experience - and a good portion of [I]emotional dysphoria[/I] - that is to say, intense mental anguish over having to live as "the wrong gender." So, contrary to popular belief, transgender people don't simply [I]"want to be a (wo)man,"[/I] but actually have a physical cause behind it all, and I think transgenderism would be properly classified as a developmental disorder. Transgenderism [B]cannot be cured, only treated.[/B] (Apologies for largely leaving out female-to-males in this post, but it's not really known what causes FtM transgenderism because there's been much less research on them, unfortunately - only enough to determine that the developmental causes are different from those that result in transgenderism in MtFs. If anyone has questions about this stuff, feel free to PM me here or on Steam, because I love to explain things for people.) (also JUST FOR THE RECORD I fucking hate those tumblrshit morons who want to abolish male and female pronouns and call everyone shi/xi/xe/zi/whateverthefuck that shit's retarded as fuck holy shit)[/QUOTE] Best post in this thread by a mile

Should cisgender people be accepted? If not, why? What is the difference? Both concern identities regarding one's sex: i.e. whether one's mind identifies with their physical sex or not relative to the sensory environment. Thus, the transgender individual would be one whom finds a dis-congruence with their physical sex as per what their sensory environment informs them of what their sex actually is (note: this doesn't necessarily mean that you can raise someone as a girl who identifies as a boy, this merely refers to the cues that the brain picks up on that it uses to construct a representation of binary sex). Unless transition is acceptable socially, it is a disorder -- a disorder is something which the environment rejects, whether internal to the self (i.e. of the body) or external (i.e. of the sensory environment (e.g. society)). Like sexuality, gender cannot be fixed or "changed": it is the same as it is from the start: it is a constant upon which social identity is built. The difference between sexuality and gender is that sexuality refers to one's default preference of what they like, i.e. the type or plug or socket they prefer. Gender is which of those one identifies as.

[QUOTE=amdX2;44262088]Should cisgender people be accepted? If not, why?[/QUOTE] This isn't a valid argument at all. Cisgendered people already [I]are[/I] accepted. [QUOTE=amdX2;44262088]What is the difference? Both concern identities regarding one's sex: i.e. whether one's mind identifies with their physical sex or not relative to the sensory environment.[/QUOTE] Specifically the terms cisgender and transgender describe the relationship between one's physical sex and mental identity. Gender itself though is the mental identity while sex is physical traits. Though there are still some differences in things such as how the brain works in a transgender person. (Ie: Working more similarly to that of how they identify.) [QUOTE=amdX2;44262088]Unless transition is acceptable socially, it is a disorder -- a disorder is something which the environment rejects, whether internal to the self (i.e. of the body) or external (i.e. of the sensory environment (e.g. society)).[/QUOTE] It's not really a disorder though if it's simply your mind and body physically being different though. Or at least not in the way it seems you are suggesting. It would be more comparable to a physical disorder and not a mental one really. A mental disorder relies on non-standard behavior, ie: things such as schizophrenia. But transgender people on the other hand don't act non-standardly. They simply act in an unexpected way due to their minds working differently than expected, like that of the opposite sex. The issue in others outwardly accepting that inevitably hinging on the transgender person's physical body.

Not saying that I don't accept transgenderism, but is it necessary to focus on transgenderism alone when the problem in general is always the lack of tolerance towards certain other people and their lifestyles? I think that is [I]always[/I] the problem concerning discrimination in any way or sense, whether it's sexuality, gender, nationality, skin colors, whatever you choose. People need to learn to accept other people because I think it's morally wrong for another person to judge like that. That said, I fully support transgenderism because to me, it's another tool to create universal acceptance, equality and tolerance, similar to feminism, anti-racism and homosexuality / bisexuality. Transgenderism is a thing people do, and everyone on this planet does a thing. And it's possible for everyone not to like a thing, and some people go through great lengths to make the people enjoying a thing miserable because it's [I]different[/I] or something they don't understand and there's the problem. From understanding comes acceptance, bam. I just solved the world's problems.

I'm not sure what I believe about transgenderism, but what I do know is that people should not be able to get permanent surgeries until they are 18.

[QUOTE=Recurracy;44266602]Not saying that I don't accept transgenderism, but is it necessary to focus on transgenderism alone when the problem in general is always the lack of tolerance towards certain other people and their lifestyles?[/QUOTE] I'm unsure what you mean, the entire world isn't only focusing on fixing transgenderism. The thread exists partially because out of the LGBT groups, the T is far less focused on than the other groups that make it up. It's not as if the thread is suggesting we only fix transgenderism, but it is significantly ignored more than the other LGB groups so bringing it up on it's own is a better idea for a thread.

I don't think we can say for sure. As time progresses, we will see. I, personally, have nothing against it. But I do not consider it as normal. I do not think we should treat these people any different than everyone else, but I think we should know that the person we are speaking to is not normal. The same thing goes with homosexual people. I have nothing against them, in fact I think they are very funny and like the way they dress, but they are far from normal. Gays are born gay, it's a form of sickness, it's not a bad one, but it's not normal. Transgenderism is not a sickness, but it's also not normal. They should be accepted by normal society, but it should know that they are not like it. Because if it doesn't, it will reach a stage of acceptance where even a mad man would become normal under certain circumstances. I don't know if any of you have read the book "Er ist wieder da" ("He's back"), but it shows a perfect example of today's society. You can see how it is ready to accept someone for what they are so much, that it will even let someone like Hitler back into its numbers. So my answer is yes and no - transgender people should be treated by normal society like everyone else, but it should also know that they are not normal.

[QUOTE=Nighty;44279892]The same thing goes with homosexual people. I have nothing against them, in fact I think they are very funny and like the way they dress, but they are far from normal.[/QUOTE] This is a massive generalization. [QUOTE]Gays are born gay, it's a form of sickness, it's not a bad one, but it's not normal.[/QUOTE] Can you provide proof of this?

[QUOTE=maximizer39v2;44268302]I'm not sure what I believe about transgenderism, but what I do know is that people should not be able to get permanent surgeries until they are 18.[/QUOTE] Most wouldn't have any sort of surgery before then, anyway. HRT is only allowed at 16 and most use that for around 3 or 4 years before getting the genital surgery.

Something I've pondered every now and again: would transgenderism exist, or be nearly as prevalent, if we didn't have gender norms?

[QUOTE=Nighty;44279892]I don't think we can say for sure. As time progresses, we will see. I, personally, have nothing against it. But I do not consider it as normal. I do not think we should treat these people any different than everyone else, but I think we should know that the person we are speaking to is not normal. The same thing goes with homosexual people. I have nothing against them, in fact I think they are very funny and like the way they dress, but they are far from normal.[/QUOTE] Statistically, yeah. [QUOTE=Nighty;44279892]Gays are born gay, it's a form of sickness, it's not a bad one, but it's not normal. Transgenderism is not a sickness, but it's also not normal.[/QUOTE] How are they not both a sickness? [QUOTE=Nighty;44279892]They should be accepted by normal society, but it should know that they are not like it. Because if it doesn't, it will reach a stage of acceptance where even a mad man would become normal under certain circumstances. I don't know if any of you have read the book "Er ist wieder da" ("He's back"), but it shows a perfect example of today's society. You can see how it is ready to accept someone for what they are so much, that it will even let someone like Hitler back into its numbers. So my answer is yes and no - transgender people should be treated by normal society like everyone else, but it should also know that they are not normal.[/QUOTE] Ah, the old slippery slope argumentwith Godwin's law tossed in. Perfect way to end a post.

[QUOTE=Nighty;44279892]The same thing goes with homosexual people. I have nothing against them, in fact I think they are very funny and like the way they dress, but they are far from normal.[/QUOTE] What. This sounds like a generalization to me - the only ones you'll see dressing radically different are probably the overly flamboyant ones. I mean heck I dress "normally" and I'm pretty gay.

[QUOTE=Irockz;44280318]Most wouldn't have any sort of surgery before then, anyway. HRT is only allowed at 16 and most use that for around 3 or 4 years before getting the genital surgery.[/QUOTE] True, but I read an article in a magazine about a little kid going through the surgery and he was only in like 6th grade

I dont think we should accept them at all. I feel that this everyone is special society that is now actively encouraged is damaging to society. i feel that it is in fact more damaging to allow these individuals to carry out their strange fantasies as it only makes their social interactions with those around them that much more awkward and uncomfortable. Furthermore, I feel that it would be better to actually send them to something like a summer school to try and learn to cope with their problems, not like the camps you see nowadays where they abuse gays and what not. But just a camp type environment where they can discuss whats wrong with them with a psychiatrist and try and get to the root of why they are the way they are.

I agree with Jetblack, these people that want to carry out these weird fantasies must have gone through some psychological trauma. It is possible they have been sexually abused at a young age which is why they want to become to the opposite sex. Either that or they want to have sexual intercourse with men without being labeled as a "homosexual" or "gay."

[QUOTE=maximizer39v2;44282678]True, but I read an article in a magazine about a little kid going through the surgery and he was only in like 6th grade[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure you read wrong. At most they were allowed HRT which isn't remotely the same as a sex change. [editline]18th March 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=inertmudkip;44283902]I agree with Jetblack, these people that want to carry out these weird fantasies must have gone through some psychological trauma. It is possible they have been sexually abused at a young age which is why they want to become to the opposite sex. Either that or they want to have sexual intercourse with men without being labeled as a "homosexual" or "gay."[/QUOTE] What are you on about? Do you have any evidence of any of this? Because psychologists tend to suggest otherwise so...

[QUOTE=Alice3173;44284022]I'm pretty sure you read wrong. At most they were allowed HRT which isn't remotely the same as a sex change. [editline]18th March 2014[/editline] What are you on about? Do you have any evidence of any of this? Because psychologists tend to suggest otherwise so...[/QUOTE] From here. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism[/url] [quote]Rearing / Trauma[edit] For many years, many people, including psychiatrist and sexologist David Oliver Cauldwell,[2] argued that transsexualism is a psychological/emotional disorder caused by psychological and environmental factors, due to personality conflicts. Harry Benjamin wrote, "Our genetic and endocrine equipment constitutes either an unresponsive [or] fertile soil on which the wrong conditioning and a psychological trauma can grow and develop into such a basic conflict that subsequently a deviation like transsexualism can result."[3] The unsuccessful outcome of an attempt to raise David Reimer, the victim of an early accidental genital mutilation, as a girl from infancy through adolescence is cited as disproof of the theory that one's inborn sense of gender is developed through parenting.[4][5] His case is used by organizations such as The Intersex Society of North America as a cautionary tale about why one should not needlessly modify the genitals of unconsenting minors.[/quote]

[QUOTE=inertmudkip;44283902]I agree with Jetblack, these people that want to carry out these weird fantasies must have gone through some psychological trauma. It is possible they have been sexually abused at a young age which is why they want to become to the opposite sex. Either that or they want to have sexual intercourse with men without being labeled as a "homosexual" or "gay."[/QUOTE] Uh, no? I never experienced any trauma. I even had come out as gay originally and was okay being labeled as a gay man. But it still felt off, and I had found out what it was and now I'm transitioning to female. Besides, being gay is less stigmatizing than being trans. It's not a sexual fantasy or anything like that. Are you aware that transgender individual's brain structures resemble those of the sex they identify as? A transgender female (Male-To-Female) has the same brain structure to that of a cis (binary) female. And vice versa for transgender men and cis men. It's only a theory as it stands, but research and evidence supports that it's highly likely that this happens during development in the womb. We all start off as female fetuses in the womb. If the fetus is destined to become male, there are two instances where the fetus is pumped with testosterone. One is for the brain's development, and the other is for the body's development. For transgirls, the brain is not fed the testosterone, or not fed enough of it, while the body is. This causes the brain to stay as female and continue developing as such while the body becomes male. I'd assume the opposite is for transmen. Where the brain gets fed T so it develops as male, but the body doesn't get that dose and develops as female. This is why the whole, "I'm X born in a Y's body," saying exists. Because it's literally what it is. It's basically the wrong brain in the wrong body. That's why we end up feeling wrong in our skin. Now, it's true, a lot of trans people have experienced some sort of trauma. But that's usually as a direct result of being transgender. Having your brain tell you everything about your body is wrong takes its toll on transgender individuals. It gets so bad that a lot of us end up developing mental illnesses as a result.

[QUOTE=Jetblack357;44284061]From here. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism[/url][/QUOTE] That man has been dead for 55 years. I'm pretty sure more recent studies on the subject should be considered over ones over half a century old.