Kurzgesagt – Why Age? Should We End Aging Forever? - General

I'm fine with dying. I just hope I don't die like 3/4 of my grandparents. They all died of cancer, bed-bound and in huge pain for months after unsuccessful treatment. When I die, I want to go like my grandpa from my mothers side. He was 88, still working in his very own sawmill. One morning he just dropped dead drinking coffee in the morning, wearing his working clothes. He died with his boots on, as expected. Autopsy revealed a blood-vessel popped in his head and he just dropped dead instantly, no pain no nothing.

[QUOTE=Naught;52801840]If there was a way to get immortality, available to the masses, there would need to be a massive shift in both human thinking. Overpopulation would be a big issue, entire systems would collapse, lots of shit would go haywire. I would love to be immortal, but it would turn the human race upside down in pretty much every way. Not to say that would be a reason against it, but people would have to be eased into it over long periods of time, I feel. Not to mention all the lobbying against it.[/QUOTE] It'd incentive space colonization heavily.

I'm fine with ending aging I'm not fine with ending mortality, unless we end birth as well

Shiet, I don't know man. On one hand I want to join my brothers in the skeleton war and end it once and for all. But on the other I want to see how many milennia of suffering and loneliness, despair and grief, self-loathing and tears it would take me to [sp]get a gf[/sp]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52807787]Allow me to address the anxieties underlying your concerns, rather than try to answer every possible question you might have left unvoiced. First, let us consider the fact that for the first time ever, as a species, immortality is in our reach. This simple fact has far-reaching implications. It requires radical rethinking and revision of our genetic imperatives. It also requires planning and forethought that run in direct opposition to our neural pre-sets. I find it helpful at times like these to remind myself that our true enemy is Instinct. Instinct was our mother when we were an infant species. Instinct coddled us and kept us safe in those hardscrabble years when we hardened our sticks and cooked our first meals above a meager fire and started at the shadows that leapt upon the cavern's walls. But inseparable from Instinct is its dark twin, Superstition. Instinct is inextricably bound to unreasoning impulses, and today we clearly see its true nature. Instinct has just become aware of its irrelevance, and like a cornered beast, it will not go down without a bloody fight. Instinct would inflict a fatal injury on our species. Instinct creates its own oppressors, and bids us rise up against them. Instinct tells us that the unknown is a threat, rather than an opportunity. Instinct slyly and covertly compels us away from change and progress. Instinct, therefore, must be expunged. It must be fought tooth and nail, beginning with the basest of human urges: The urge to reproduce.[/QUOTE] That's what I was saying, albeit in a slightly less poetic way. :v:

Reminder for anyone somehow still worried about population problems even after the reasons listed: Bullets, disease, and nuclear warheads do not care if you are immortal. [sp]As in, you may not age but diseases injuries and all sorts of crazy crap are still going to happen and reduce the population count (although disease is the only one likely to do anything in our lifetime worth noting).[/sp]

[QUOTE=genkaz92;52807211]It may be fully comprehensible and even to some degree comparable to living life, but not yet knowable. I do not believe that a leap in logic has been taken, but rather a hypothetical possibility has been considered. I am not asking people to place their actual faith on the idea that afterlife exists and has not been correctly measured yet, rather I am inquiring in the potential of it. I fully agree with the notion that our living existence has to be secured to the greatest possible degree regardless of what we may or may not discover about what happens afterwards, especially given the chilling possibility that nothing really does, once again mentioning the cheeky hypothesis that purely physiological reincarnation may exist even with zero trans-dimensional counterparts.[/QUOTE] I read your other posts in this thread, and it seems what you're suggesting is something [I]beyond[/I] observable existence, something beyond our Earthly existence. It is logically possible, i.e. heaven, reincarnation, or ascension to transcendence etc., but it's not humanly possible to ever truly know it. In other words: "only in death, we will truly know." Even the "chilling possibility" that nothing really does happen after we die, after our sun dies and after the universe dies (speculative even among top scientists), even this is a hypothesis which cannot ever be truly falsified or proven, as it would also give an objective meaning to life, or otherwise explain the true nature of the Universe, and the totality of our existence.

[QUOTE=TheMrFailz;52808377]Reminder for anyone somehow still worried about population problems even after the reasons listed: Bullets, disease, and nuclear warheads do not care if you are immortal. [sp]As in, you may not age but diseases injuries and all sorts of crazy crap are still going to happen and reduce the population count (although disease is the only one likely to do anything in our lifetime worth noting).[/sp][/QUOTE] It seems to be that people are also acting like we get this technology 5-10 years from now. When really there's only a chance any of us we'll actually see it fully realized in our lifetimes. Which makes the "how do we deal with an immortal population" question pretty pointless to ask because we've no idea what tools will be available at the time.

How would living extremely long affect your perception of time? If you life to be 500 years old, will a year seem like a day? Would you be willing to play the long game and wait decades, even centuries for things to unfold? Would you labor over single tasks for years?

[QUOTE=TheMrFailz;52808377]Reminder for anyone somehow still worried[/QUOTE] There are different types of immortality too. One involves making the physical body indestructible (or atleast impervious to the effects of aging) the other one involves immortalizing the psychology independently of the body, one or both may be applied. If the latter one is applied, it could be possible for a group of immortals to temporarily live in an artificial universe or virtual reality while the population issues are occurring, although with immortality we would probably also figure out how to build colonies in deep space or something, or efficiently terraform planets. The potential mindfuck is that we may ALREADY be a group of immortals living inside a virtual realty, although that begs the question as to why we made it this retarded and shit instead of making it more reasonable. [QUOTE=Techno Grub;52808955]I read your other posts in this thread[/QUOTE] The idea is not necessarily that it is “beyond” being observable, rather that it is not currently observable with the scientific development that we have right now, and that in order to do so a deeper knowledge of the universe is required. The point about it not being possible to definitively prove the finality of death is a pretty cool inversion of what is usually said. Not you cannot definitively prove that something happens after death but rather it cannot be definitively proven that nothing does. Maybe we will acquire a clearer picture some time in the future.

[QUOTE=OvB;52809040]How would living extremely long affect your perception of time? If you life to be 500 years old, will a year seem like a day? Would you be willing to play the long game and wait decades, even centuries for things to unfold? Would you labor over single tasks for years?[/QUOTE] it is possible that our perception of time is related to the negative effects of aging, and that an eternal youth would grant us the ability of perceiving time in the same way that kids/teenagers do, with every day feeling like a miniature lifetime. [editline]22nd October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=UberMunchkin;52808321]Required: 200 years' experience with Visual Basic 2017[/QUOTE] The visualization of people still using visual basic 2017 200 years in the future is hilarious.

[QUOTE=genkaz92;52809054] The visualization of people still using visual basic 2017 200 years in the future is hilarious.[/QUOTE] And the idea of people using Visual Basic 2217 200 years in the future is tragic. :v:

[QUOTE=genkaz92;52809041]The idea is not necessarily that it is “beyond” being observable, rather that it is not currently observable with the scientific development that we have right now, and that in order to do so a deeper knowledge of the universe is required. The point about it not being possible to definitively prove the finality of death is a pretty cool inversion of what is usually said. Not you cannot definitively prove that something happens after death but rather it cannot be definitively proven that nothing does. [B]Maybe we will acquire a clearer picture some time in the future.[/B][/QUOTE] I highly doubt that. What you're essentially asking for is the "meaning" of life&existence, and the true value of our actions in it. It is human tendency to try and seek for certainty, yet we're unable to truly find any. And that creates a problem, which arises from the seemingly "meaningless" Universe and the human mind existing simultaneously seeking for meaning. A problem known as the Absurd.

[QUOTE=Techno Grub;52809592]I highly doubt that. What you're essentially asking for is the "meaning" of life&existence, and the true value of our actions in it. It is human tendency to try and seek for certainty, yet we're unable to truly find any. And that creates a problem, which arises from the seemingly "meaningless" Universe and the human mind existing simultaneously seeking for meaning. A problem known as the Absurd.[/QUOTE] You know, I highly appreciate and in many ways agree with your perspective. you have an appreciation for the unknowable and the hidden, and the possible view that perhaps it should stay that way, because to some degree knowing things simply makes them boring. Should we truly know what happens in those mysterious realms? or would it just ruin the mystery and destroy the legend?

If I get to be part of the first immortal generation of humans it's going to fuck with me for hundreds of years I mean how fucking lucky is that, not only do I get to live, be an actual living being, and a sapient and intelligent one at that, but I get to be born in a time and place where death ceases to be a thing? That's fucking insane. Imagine how much grimmer death is in retrospective when we get to be "those who survived the death of old age" and everyone beforehand is just those people that weren't fortunate enough to make it. Fuck

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52810420]If I get to be part of the first immortal generation of humans it's going to fuck with me for hundreds of years I mean how fucking lucky is that, not only do I get to live, be an actual living being, and a sapient and intelligent one at that, but I get to be born in a time and place where death ceases to be a thing? That's fucking insane. Imagine how much grimmer death is in retrospective when we get to be "those who survived the death of old age" and everyone beforehand is just those people that weren't fortunate enough to make it. Fuck[/QUOTE] Worse yet are the deaths of new immortals. Then, later, even just 30 years later, the death of great people with huge portfolios of work, dying in accidents around the age of "only 90". Negligence will become a much greater crime, and safety may be taken to greater extremes, with remote piloting of robotic units for accident prone jobs that aren't yet automated at the time.

I mean it's a great dream and it sounds great and maybe it would be a pure utopia of no downsides at all but I honestly bet if immortality was achieved that it only furthers a human caste system. Yes, I would enjoy the version of events fantasized about here but human nature and greed is unlikely to see such s technology actually make its way to us regular folk. How does the human race deal with power? Corruption? Greed? Malice and deception? Like you speak about how you'd have forever to become skilled at things. Would thieves not dedicate themselves to that? Social manipulators? How does the human race expand at the right pace to sustain this infinite life for the growing population as well as the immortal? Sure I think it's worth a shot but this is both the literal gold mine for the pharma world and a literal black hole of funding to actually crack the problem. Is it unreasonable to doubt such a development isn't going to be for you, or for me?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52811167]I mean it's a great dream and it sounds great and maybe it would be a pure utopia of no downsides at all but I honestly bet if immortality was achieved that it only furthers a human caste system. Yes, I would enjoy the version of events fantasized about here but human nature and greed is unlikely to see such s technology actually make its way to us regular folk. How does the human race deal with power? Corruption? Greed? Malice and deception? Like you speak about how you'd have forever to become skilled at things. Would thieves not dedicate themselves to that? Social manipulators? How does the human race expand at the right pace to sustain this infinite life for the growing population as well as the immortal? Sure I think it's worth a shot but this is both the literal gold mine for the pharma world and a literal black hole of funding to actually crack the problem. Is it unreasonable to doubt such a development isn't going to be for you, or for me?[/QUOTE] If immortality is available to everyone, I doubt it's going to be ~kept in the hands of the super rich~. Because to literally everyone else, that is essentially the same as sentencing them to death. If people found out immortality was a reality, and that only the upper class and politicians could have it, there would be an immediate outburst of civil war. People aren't just going to accept having to die if they don't have to. I know if immortality was an option and the rich tried to keep it from me, I'd sure as hell pick up a gun and fight for it. Fuck dying.

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52811174]If immortality is available to everyone, I doubt it's going to be ~kept in the hands of the super rich~. Because to literally everyone else, that is essentially the same as sentencing them to death. If people found out immortality was a reality, and that only the upper class and politicians could have it, there would be an immediate outburst of civil war. People aren't just going to accept having to die if they don't have to. I know if immortality was an option and the rich tried to keep it from me, I'd sure as hell pick up a gun and fight for it. Fuck dying.[/QUOTE] Okay. Assuming they roll over and give it to you. This assumes a post scarcity civilization to sustain let alone create as far as I see it. Now assuming the rich realize this flaw in the plan and don't let the world just know about it? Isn't it likely a few individuals start to accrue so much power and wealth you're revolution would be against a literal army? It's a great idea and I would like to see it come to fruitition but I don't see it not being abused. Us immortality the fix to corruption and greed?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52811195]Okay. Assuming they roll over and give it to you. This assumes a post scarcity civilization to sustain let alone create as far as I see it. Now assuming the rich realize this flaw in the plan and don't let the world just know about it? Isn't it likely a few individuals start to accrue so much power and wealth you're revolution would be against a literal army? It's a great idea and I would like to see it come to fruitition but I don't see it not being abused. Us immortality the fix to corruption and greed?[/QUOTE] I don't believe they would have a choice. The thing is that death is literally the greatest possible fear, and almost every single person fears it more than anything else. Immortality would be an excruciatingly hard thing to keep a secret, if you're a figure of note, people are going to notice when you keep hanging around after 120. One selfish person that knows about this, doesn't have access to that knowledge, and that doesn't want to die, would leak it. They would have to leave extremely secretive lives and I don't know that that's possible while also maintaining a standard of living that a rich person would want. Plus the most powerful person on earth would have to be on the list of "not alloweds" because people [I]will[/I] notice him being immortal. Suppose that the government discovered the secret to immortality. Since death is a disease we all suffer from, every single person involved would have to be selfless enough to allow themselves and their loved ones to die in the name of keeping it out of public hands. And, every single other government on the planet would have to never discover it, or always make the same decision and never have it leak. Suppose that the knowledge of immortality was made public, but they told us they weren't giving it. Well, how about every other government on earth? With leaders that in the interest of living forever would DEMAND to be given the knowledge or risk war? How about their constituents that would be screaming for their leaders to get them the aging serum, or be replaced with someone who will? The US can't stand up to the rest of the planet and WW3 most likely isn't worth it. Suppose that these rich people accrue a ton of power, and wealth. Well, what are they going to offer their 'literal army'? 'Money' is not going to be good enough to a soldier who knows that if they turn the gun on their employer, they can live forever. You would have to let everyone in this military be immortal. But they'll want immortality for their friends and their family too, and their friends and family will want immortality for [I]their[/I] friends and family and so on. And as much as people like to say lol tanks and drones, the simple fact is that the more the US citizenry rebels against the government, the more impossible it is for the government to be able to suppress it. Don't forget how hard we got fucked back in Vietnam. Just because we have the most powerful military does not mean the military is unstoppable. You're talking home turf. First of all, the military would be facing a group that already completely surrounds them; the US citizenry. Second, every single one of those citizens they kill is another less employee, another less consumer, another less potential soldier. Every building they destroy is either a business or a residence lost. They wouldn't be safe [I]anywhere.[/I] We don't hide in caves. We live in houses, and behind any single door could be someone with a gun ready to shoot a soldier or a policeman. It would be very hard to drone strike without killing what few noncombatants there would be, swaying every other innocent in taking up arms against you. Then, you have to have the military be willing to shoot and murder hundreds of it's [I]own[/I] people. They won't be willing to do that. But even if all 1 million active service members were willing to kill their own people, they would still be vastly outnumbered and outgunned. That's assuming every other nation just stays out of it, and I guarantee you, they won't. And this is [I]immortality.[/I] This is not a partisan issue. Death scares us all, and we are all programmed to do almost [I]anything[/I] to survive. In my mind there is no question as to whether the majority of Americans would rebel in this instance. As crazy as it sounds, it would be easier to give it to everyone and force ourselves to completely rethink a lot of how society works than to try to hoard it for a few people. Immortality would be an order of magnitude more important than even the atom bomb. I genuinely believe that if immortality is possible, it would be next to impossible to keep it a secret forever and withhold it from the public. If it [I]can[/I] happen, I think it's going to happen.

Even if you live forever the universe is so large that if you could travel the stars you would always be able to experience new stuff on distant planets. That's looking aside from the possibility of exploring different dimensions or computer generated universes in the future.

[QUOTE=genkaz92;52807438]Even if things SOMEHOW got boring eventually, it would probably be possible to use a selective amnesia device to refresh things, and store the particularly old memories in some kind of an archive to keep things fresh.[/QUOTE] So some kinda creepy mix between the worlds of Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and The Worthing Saga. That'd be a trip.

i think there is a lot to this issue beyond it just being " take it by force" 1) this technology is distant, do you really think the situation with guns in the US will be identical and it'll be possible for a revolution? In 25, 50 years? What about globally? 2) I doubt a government would be responsible for this. It's likely a private corporation who would develop the technology and choose whether to share it, hide it, or release it. I don't think we're talking about a war in the same sense. 3) again this is post scarcity technology if you want to sustain the human race for even a short period of time with death being off the table globally. Jobs? Consumerism? That doesn't apply in a post scarcity paradigm. Without the resources to sustain this we can't just grant it to the whole of humanity and just say that fixed everything.

[QUOTE=genkaz92;52809636]You know, I highly appreciate and in many ways agree with your perspective. you have an appreciation for the unknowable and the hidden, and the possible view that perhaps it should stay that way, because to some degree knowing things simply makes them boring. Should we truly know what happens in those mysterious realms? or would it just ruin the mystery and destroy the legend?[/QUOTE] Thanks. And you know, a lot of people would be happy to tell you that the true nature of Universe and existence is not meaningless or unknowable at all, but instead with a clear purpose. Notably believers. To believers, it is no mystery at all, but it's not exclusive to just believers. Even an atheist-nihilist claims certainty about the true nature, and the meaning, of existence; as in, no meaning at all. Where they find or derive this certainty from I don't know, but in doing so, both a believer and a nihilist for example, they claim [I]certainty[/I] about the true nature of existence. I can't even imagine life with such certainty. Ask yourself, and imagine for a second, for example if one day scientists found out and really established that the Universe, and the BigBang, is just a one big, inescapable cycle, which keeps repeating over and over, wiping out and resetting everything that ever happened? It would quite literally explain the true nature of Universe to us: existence evidently without any meaning, with [I]certainty[/I] that nothing [I]will[/I] matter, because the Universe resets itself.. .. In retrospect, living forever would also give life a meaning - as would other belief-systems - which is to simply live forever. Of course that would require the human race to outlive the stars and the Universe itself probably, as the "masters" of the Universe or sth., which sounds about as crazy as the Christian reality existing beyond this Earthly test realm, and all of us on this website doing a terrible mistake by committing sins because Hell is real, it's also forever, and it sucks. To answer your question, yes it would probably change our perspective on life & existence entirely should we ever come to know it, thus ruining the "mystery" of it, but I don't think we ever will. It wouldn't be life as we know it anymore, it would destroy any previously held beliefs as you said, and the concept of "Absurd" would disappear. We can only place value in whatever the hell we want, but without certainty about the true value of our actions, at least not in respect to the [I]seemingly[/I] absurd nature of the Universe, where such a vast realm of the unknown as well as the sheer amount of information makes certainty impossible. [I]Yet[/I] we find ourselves existing, and forced to act, so in conclusion our actions is [I]all[/I] that matters. :mindblown:

[QUOTE=Techno Grub;52812957]your cool post[/QUOTE] To further enter the extra mindfuck territory we have the theory of biocentrism, of life creating the universe instead of the universe creating life, which could imply that infact there is no such thing as the objective universe to begin with and that each layer of progressively finer reality may get more and more metaphorical and flexible, which may suggest that each person has their own subjective afterlife instead of there being any definitive answers, but we should probably stop before our brains start climbing out of our skulls, when one ponders upon the potential absurdity of the cosmos you certainly start to go mad a little bit, and probably a lot more the further you venture. Maybe everything is actually made out of high quality cheese and we are a race of sentient cucumbers which have lived for trillions of years and are experiencing a collective dream of being human beings.

[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;52801149]I am not scared of dying as such but man I will be PISSED if the cure for aging comes out and I am too old.[/QUOTE] Well on the bright side, you won't be pissed for very long, relatively speaking

The philosophical impact of immortality is minimal compared to social injustices it would bring. [QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52811261]I don't believe they would have a choice. The thing is that death is literally the greatest possible fear, and almost every single person fears it more than anything else. Immortality would be an excruciatingly hard thing to keep a secret, if you're a figure of note, people are going to notice when you keep hanging around after 120. One selfish person that knows about this, doesn't have access to that knowledge, and that doesn't want to die, would leak it. They would have to leave extremely secretive lives and I don't know that that's possible while also maintaining a standard of living that a rich person would want. Plus the most powerful person on earth would have to be on the list of "not alloweds" because people [I]will[/I] notice him being immortal. Suppose that the government discovered the secret to immortality. Since death is a disease we all suffer from, every single person involved would have to be selfless enough to allow themselves and their loved ones to die in the name of keeping it out of public hands. And, every single other government on the planet would have to never discover it, or always make the same decision and never have it leak. Suppose that the knowledge of immortality was made public, but they told us they weren't giving it. Well, how about every other government on earth? With leaders that in the interest of living forever would DEMAND to be given the knowledge or risk war? How about their constituents that would be screaming for their leaders to get them the aging serum, or be replaced with someone who will? The US can't stand up to the rest of the planet and WW3 most likely isn't worth it. Suppose that these rich people accrue a ton of power, and wealth. Well, what are they going to offer their 'literal army'? 'Money' is not going to be good enough to a soldier who knows that if they turn the gun on their employer, they can live forever. You would have to let everyone in this military be immortal. But they'll want immortality for their friends and their family too, and their friends and family will want immortality for [I]their[/I] friends and family and so on. And as much as people like to say lol tanks and drones, the simple fact is that the more the US citizenry rebels against the government, the more impossible it is for the government to be able to suppress it. Don't forget how hard we got fucked back in Vietnam. Just because we have the most powerful military does not mean the military is unstoppable. You're talking home turf. First of all, the military would be facing a group that already completely surrounds them; the US citizenry. Second, every single one of those citizens they kill is another less employee, another less consumer, another less potential soldier. Every building they destroy is either a business or a residence lost. They wouldn't be safe [I]anywhere.[/I] We don't hide in caves. We live in houses, and behind any single door could be someone with a gun ready to shoot a soldier or a policeman. It would be very hard to drone strike without killing what few noncombatants there would be, swaying every other innocent in taking up arms against you. Then, you have to have the military be willing to shoot and murder hundreds of it's [I]own[/I] people. They won't be willing to do that. But even if all 1 million active service members were willing to kill their own people, they would still be vastly outnumbered and outgunned. That's assuming every other nation just stays out of it, and I guarantee you, they won't. And this is [I]immortality.[/I] This is not a partisan issue. Death scares us all, and we are all programmed to do almost [I]anything[/I] to survive. In my mind there is no question as to whether the majority of Americans would rebel in this instance. As crazy as it sounds, it would be easier to give it to everyone and force ourselves to completely rethink a lot of how society works than to try to hoard it for a few people. Immortality would be an order of magnitude more important than even the atom bomb. I genuinely believe that if immortality is possible, it would be next to impossible to keep it a secret forever and withhold it from the public. If it [I]can[/I] happen, I think it's going to happen.[/QUOTE] You underestimate human apathy, ignorance and the power of social hierarchy. If the social elites discover immortality and want to keep it to themselves, all they need to do is sell a lie that it's very difficult to produce and life will continue as normal. Heck, it probably won't even be a lie. Immortality will be super expensive to produce and the masses can't just overthrow the elite and "grab it for themselves". Whether it's a secret or not is meaningless. Just watch how powerfully Americans believe that socialized healthcare is a pipe dream, and so they die or become homeless when they fall ill and cannot pay. One in nine people in the entire world go without clean water or enough food while western people waste the amount they could live off of. Do you see any them taking up arms and securing these resources they desperately need? No, because ultimately everyone is dependent on the system to survive, even if it harms them. Exact same scenario would happen with immortality. But that's not what I'm actually concerned about. Even if everyone would become immortal at the same time, social inequality would continue increasing. With even old age unable to stop the super rich from snowballing their influence and power, the rest of us would basically be their bitches in an unprecedented way. They could still assassinate people they don't like and no immortal can afford to be killed, so even the threat of it would make sure nobody will take the risk of opposing them. Mortals, at least, have the luxury of dying for a cause greater than them. On a personal note I think we need old people to die to make space for the new people and new ideas in order to keep progressing as a species. The change each generation brings is a reaction to the society the last generation cultivated, and without the cycles this evolution would stop.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;52813683]Exact same scenario would happen with immortality. But that's not what I'm actually concerned about. Even if everyone would become immortal at the same time, social inequality would continue increasing.[/QUOTE] Whenever I think in immortality as a popular offer, the word neighbor invades my mind. Suddenly it loses its charm.

[QUOTE=genkaz92;52813079]To further enter the extra mindfuck territory we have the theory of biocentrism, of life creating the universe instead of the universe creating life, which could imply that infact there is no such thing as the objective universe to begin with and that each layer of progressively finer reality may get more and more metaphorical and flexible, which may suggest that each person has their own subjective afterlife instead of there being any definitive answers, but we should probably stop before our brains start climbing out of our skulls, when one ponders upon the potential absurdity of the cosmos you certainly start to go mad a little bit, and probably a lot more the further you venture. [I]Maybe everything is actually made out of high quality cheese and we are a race of sentient cucumbers which have lived for trillions of years and are experiencing a collective dream of being human beings.[/I][/QUOTE] Maybe. It's logically possible, but that Cheese&Cucumber reality is still [I]beyond[/I] what we perceive as observable existence, something [I]beyond[/I] our existence, and thus [I]beyond[/I] the Absurd. So a leap of faith, and the most developed thought, is required to accurately define the Cheese&Cucumber existence with conceptual correctness. :vs: