Beyond Skyrim: Third Anniversary Trailer - Tamriel Awakens - General

this is a pretty cool mod i guess but id rather talk about something much more important...the element which has defined the elder scrolls genre since 1994 [I]SICK EXTREME COMBAT[/I]

The idea behind Morrowind's combat system was that you start as a complete zero, an idiot that couldn't tell which end of the sword works best for stabbing, and lacks any basic combat training. If you wanna get good at anything, you're best off getting at least basic training from a trainer. It's similar to the original Deus Ex where you'd have terrible crosshair sway if you weren't trained in guns. This game design puts emphasis on roleplay and creating a distinct character that might not be a good fighter, but a great trader and manipulator. It's all about reflecting the ingame character. It's made for an RPG with action elements. The idea behind Skyrim (and DXHR) is to start the player being reasonably good at everything, especially the established core gameplay. Increasing skill is mainly about keeping up with the levelling world and unlocking perks that offer a bit more gameplay variety. Trainers are borderline unnecessary since the grind isn't difficult to overcome and doesn't offer crucial benefits. This game design emphasizes on action and giving players immediate access to most of the core gameplay, with some room to grow if you want to specialize. It's all about offering the player a fun game. It's made for an action game with RPG elements. It's two very different approaches to game design that achieve different goals; I don't think you can claim one is straight up better than the other. Tho obviously you can have a preference.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;46559887]TES has always had garbage combat systems. In Arena/Daggerfall it was clumsy and unresponsive. In Morrowind it was too RNG based and boring as shit. In Oblivion it was too floaty and tedious. In Skyrim it was too simple and bare-bones. I'd really rather have Skyrim's system over any other because at the very least you can enjoy it for what it's worth, and it can actively be improved by simply changing sound effects and a few values. If you're going to have a shit system in your game, then at least make sure it's the least tedious possible and give the player a quick way through in case they don't like it.[/QUOTE] Fuck no. Changing a few sound effects will not make Skyrim's combat even remotely decent, mate. [editline]24th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Bloodshot12;46560054]I prefer Daggerfall's to Morrowind's because you start off having better chances to hit (and also different attacks give you better chances) as well as the fact that a hit makes a nice THWOP sound and pushes enemies back like you just hit them with the force of a shotgun. You can even hit enemies so hard that the [B]impact with the wall behind them[/B] will kill them. Shit's badass[/QUOTE] Yeah, Daggerfall ironically has the best combat in the entire series. Fucking Daggerfall of all things.

[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;46561287]No mod still has implemented parrying, make enemies ice skate with freeze spells, body dismemberment and better animations. TES modding community is too focused on creating sex mods.[/QUOTE] please don't remind me

[QUOTE=doomkiwi;46560391]I really wonder what games people are comparing when people say that Skyrim's combat is awful, because most RPGs I've played have much MUCH worse combat than Skyrim. I mean, sure I've played a few with better combat, but most of those were multilayer dueling games. As far as I'm concerned Skyrim gets the job done, it's not "awful", I just wish it had a bit more depth.[/QUOTE] Even Oblivion and Morrowind had better combat, simply on account of everything not being so ridiculously restricted. I mean for gods sakes, you can't even attack while in the air in Skyrim. It's physically impossible for no damn reason.

[QUOTE=Grindigo;46561031]Skyrim's combat isn't good but improved a lot more since previous games, I just played Oblivion for a bit couple of weeks ago and couldn't stand it, I still feel like Bethesda should look at good old Dark Messiah's combat system and implement some of that.[/QUOTE] Imagine Arkane and Bethesda creating the next TES together. They'd probably destroy the entire gaming industry because everybody would be too busy to play TES6: Tamriel to buy other games.

[QUOTE=Robber;46561904]Imagine Arkane and Bethesda creating the next TES together. They'd probably destroy the entire gaming industry because everybody would be too busy to play TES6: Tamriel to buy other games.[/QUOTE] Kicking the bears in the face off the mountains if what everyone wants.

[QUOTE=Covalent;46559727]It looks wonderful. I cannot wait to see the full product. It's a shame that it's tarnished by Skyrims combat.[/QUOTE] Say what you will, but with 2-3 mods, Skyrim's combat can be pretty satisfying, Maybe not deep, but I find it satisfying in some ways.

[QUOTE=Brt5470;46561994]Say what you will, but with 2-3 mods, Skyrim's combat can be pretty satisfying, Maybe not deep, but I find it satisfying in some ways.[/QUOTE] I've modded Skyrim to the point where low-level bandits pose an actual challenge on the easiest game setting. help me.

[QUOTE=t h e;46560627]I don't even know why it had a terrible combat system. IMO Skyrim's combat was fine. I'm a casual plebian, sorry[/QUOTE] People forgot that bethesda as a dev =/= bethesda as a publisher and they expected Skyrim to suddenly drop all of its predecessors flaws including average combat and mediocre visuals. Like, people were actually expecting Skyrim to run on Id Tech 5 and to have Arkane Studios type combat, just because Bethesda the Publisher owns these two companies. Also Dark Messiah of Might and Magic had fun combat for its time but people need to play it again because it has not aged well at all. The combat was made stupidly easy by the use of ragdoll physics which allowed you to kick everyone and everything into spikes, fire and pits for instant deaths and the movement was floaty as fuck (much more than Skyrim ever had), magic was useless because you never had enough mana for anything, and power attacks were OP due to being able to hold onto them forever. Chilvary is a much better example of a fighting system that's challenging and straight forward, and even then it would suck in single player because it's so calibrated for multi player play.

[QUOTE=bdd458;46562036]I've modded Skyrim to the point where low-level bandits pose an actual challenge on the easiest game setting. help me.[/QUOTE] THe best thing I ever did was remove most of the level matching. Setting the game to the hardest difficulty so you're leveling up by killing wolves and elk, and trying to avoid bandits and just doing small quest errands until you can handle fighting a human. Just made progression feel more impactful. Then I like playing with something like SkyRE and each hit becomes really deadly. So it's not a spam fest but trying to go in for the strike and block in time.

[QUOTE=Brt5470;46562095]THe best thing I ever did was remove most of the level matching. Setting the game to the hardest difficulty so you're leveling up by killing wolves and elk, and trying to avoid bandits and just doing small quest errands until you can handle fighting a human. Just made progression feel more impactful. Then I like playing with something like SkyRE and each hit becomes really deadly. So it's not a spam fest but trying to go in for the strike and block in time.[/QUOTE] I tried doing that but without a shitload of mods there's no way you can actually level up all of that shit in any sensible amount of time, especially since SkyRE and Requiem modify animal AI so they flee at any damage received, including wolves. It doesn't help that the combat system is just not developed enough to make careful blocking and parrying actually worth it. Plus the fact that design wise it's not a good idea to have the first enemies in the game kill you in two hits or less while giving them bows and arrows that can also kill that fast and have them be equipped with full heavy armor so you can't deal damage in return. There's a reason Dark Souls gives you enemies that kill you in four or five hits at first and then adds the tough stuff in the second area of the game, if they threw you in the game against royal swordsmen right away you'd get permafucked and it'd be horrible.

I wouldn't recommend my mod list to someone who hasn't played through the game before, as I mainly have it set up that way for role playing purposes (IE a wandering traveler, a farmer, etc...)

Oh hey, awesome! They made another progress video. I'm excited as hell for any bit of Beyond Skyrim to be released. I check their forums daily just to see any progress being made because I just want to see more of it. I really wish I could help contribute more, but other than the fact that I'm voice acting for the project, I have no real skills to speak of.

[QUOTE=bitches;46559743][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLpDDjGI8bM[/media][/QUOTE] OK, a newly created player who obviously just ran straight from Seyda Neen (he's wearing the starting clothes and has the iron dagger from the Census Office) has trouble fighting another character who isn't meant to fight anything either. Why is it that every one of these "murrowind combat sux huehue" videos uses these ridiculous situation where you would actually [B]expect[/B] combat to be poor? Why not showcase a mid-level warrior fighting in a dungeon or something? Because then, the combat system would work fine and you couldn't make your fake criticism so easily. [editline]24th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr_Awesome;46559779]I know this thread is going to be like "if you looked up guides and built your character right blah blah" and shit but Morrowind's combat is still an issue. Skyrim is extremely accessible (and more believable, hitting someone with a sword is going to hurt them.) compared to Morrowind, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. A lot of people just like to dive into a game without having a certain linear or set path for their characters.[/QUOTE] Hahaha you're saying that Morrowind sets a [B]more[/B] linear path for your character than Skyrim does? Wow, did you play either game?

[QUOTE=Explosions;46562284]OK, a newly created player who obviously just ran straight from Seyda Neen (he's wearing the starting clothes and has the iron dagger from the Census Office) has trouble fighting another character who isn't meant to fight anything either. Why is it that every one of these "murrowind combat sux huehue" videos uses these ridiculous situation where you would actually [B]expect[/B] combat to be poor? Why not showcase a mid-level warrior fighting in a dungeon or something? Because then, the combat system would work fine and you couldn't make your fake criticism so easily. Hahaha you're saying that Morrowind sets a [B]more[/B] linear path for your character than Skyrim does? Wow, did you play either game?[/QUOTE] to be honest, morrowind has the worst combat I've seen in any video game, ever, period. even when compared to every game I've played on PC or console. it's like it's based off turn based combat (luck system) but it's not turn based at all. it's an action game but all of the combat feels weightless, clunky, slow and very uncreative. It's like trying to fight while everyone is covered in hundreds of pounds of peanut butter. The animations are completely shit, and it's true, it mostly is two people standing around hitting eachother, maybe even walking backwards at times or raising their shield. the criticism isn't really faked because morrowind has awful combat at its best. The entire combat system is completely broken at its core. The next games improved it MASSIVELY but still, even skyrim felt like it didn't have weight to the hits and was still very clunky. The Elder scrolls isn't exactly known for good fights. Fighting dragons as a pure melee character literally consists of ganking it in front of its face with your sword(s), or just ganking it like nothing with lightning.

[QUOTE=Explosions;46562284]OK, a newly created player who obviously just ran straight from Seyda Neen (he's wearing the starting clothes and has the iron dagger from the Census Office) has trouble fighting another character who isn't meant to fight anything either. Why is it that every one of these "murrowind combat sux huehue" videos uses these ridiculous situation where you would actually [B]expect[/B] combat to be poor? Why not showcase a mid-level warrior fighting in a dungeon or something? Because then, the combat system would work fine and you couldn't make your fake criticism so easily.[/QUOTE] If you slash your weapon in a game like morrowind, and it definitely makes contact it should do some sort of damage. Morrowind has a shit combat system.

Skyrim's combat sucked because everything takes a billion hits, unless you get some totally overpowered weapon. I tried to play through the game without enchanted weapons on hard or very hard (I don't remember), and it's just immersion breaking when even normal, presumably largely mortal enemies end up looking like pincushions before going down. The armor system should be revamped to make armor do what armor does - block attacks (where sometimes you penetrate, sometimes you don't) - and damage should go way up. Would make sneak attacks with bows both more [I]and[/I] less useful as well - you can't be certain that it'll be successful, but you can be certain that the guy goes down. Skyrim was a great game, and I could forgive the combat system if I at least didn't have to to slay so many draugr using it.

Morrowind's combat would be fine if the game was turn based and had a "pick target" system instead of a crosshair. Having a "percentage to hit/dodge" stats in a realtime action game is dumb, if I hit the target in the face and I see the weapon connect, there's no "miss" or "dodge" or "glance", I simply [I]hit the target in the fucking face[/I]

[QUOTE=J!NX;46562309]to be honest, morrowind has the worst combat I've seen in any video game, ever, period. even when compared to every game I've played on PC or console. it's like it's based off turn based combat (luck system) but it's not turn based at all. it's an action game but all of the combat feels weightless, clunky, slow and very uncreative. It's like trying to fight while everyone is covered in hundreds of pounds of peanut butter. The animations are completely shit, and it's true, it mostly is two people standing around hitting eachother, maybe even walking backwards at times or raising their shield. the criticism isn't really faked because morrowind has awful combat at its best. The entire combat system is completely broken at its core. The next games improved it MASSIVELY but still, even skyrim felt like it didn't have weight to the hits and was still very clunky. The Elder scrolls isn't exactly known for good fights. Fighting dragons as a pure melee character literally consists of ganking it in front of its face with your sword(s), or just ganking it like nothing with lightning.[/QUOTE] I never said Morrowind has good combat but using the absolute worst case scenarios to present this is stupid. I could make a video of my level 40 character who never misses and kills most enemies in one hit. What would that prove about Morrowind's combat? I mean, the video from that last thread had the guy using god mode to present his point. It's just dishonest and it isn't an accurate representation of the game.

(in skyrim) Once you really level up your magic user not ONLY are you way more powerful than compared to if you had a bow or melee weapons, but you have insane range and damage, and healing, allowing you to blow everything away in your path. It gets silly. [QUOTE=Explosions;46562357]I never said Morrowind has good combat but using the absolute worst case scenarios to present this is stupid. I could make a video of my level 40 character who never misses and kills most enemies in one hit. What would that prove about Morrowind's combat? I mean, the video from that last thread had the guy using god mode to present his point. It's just dishonest and it isn't an accurate representation of the game.[/QUOTE] I'd still say it feels clunky as fuck the video was stupid but there are games that still have far better examples of combat (Arx Fatalis could be used as one, both games were released in 2002)

[QUOTE=J!NX;46562362](in skyrim) Once you really level up your magic user not ONLY are you way more powerful than compared to if you had a bow or melee weapons, but you have insane range and damage, and healing, allowing you to blow everything away in your path. It gets silly. I'd still say it feels clunky as fuck the video was stupid but there are games that still have far better examples of combat (Arx Fatalis could be used as one)[/QUOTE] I agree. At very least, Morrowind's system would have benefited greatly by having reduced damage be more of a factor at low levels, rather than increased chance to miss.

I've played Morrowind back when I was pretty young, when you think backwards about it this way of course you will have good memories, it was something new back then and the game apart from it's bugs and bad mechanics had a ton of atmosphere and that's what it was and that's what it is for many more players, the game mechanics were simply not it's strongest point, either way you could just abuse alchemy and become a hulk. The moment you first found Dwemer ruins and wondered what it is or when you got completely wrecked by entire flock of cliffracers, if I would launch this game right now I would start to complain about every single aspect of it but that's because of how old it is and we got older as gamers.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;46562124]I tried doing that but without a shitload of mods there's no way you can actually level up all of that shit in any sensible amount of time, especially since SkyRE and Requiem modify animal AI so they flee at any damage received, including wolves. It doesn't help that the combat system is just not developed enough to make careful blocking and parrying actually worth it. Plus the fact that design wise it's not a good idea to have the first enemies in the game kill you in two hits or less while giving them bows and arrows that can also kill that fast and have them be equipped with full heavy armor so you can't deal damage in return. There's a reason Dark Souls gives you enemies that kill you in four or five hits at first and then adds the tough stuff in the second area of the game, if they threw you in the game against royal swordsmen right away you'd get permafucked and it'd be horrible.[/QUOTE] Well SkyRE does have somewhat improved combat mechanics. Where it makes sense to not block but simply get out of the way. Also it just slowed down leveling and made it more impactful. I'm remodding skyrim now actually with some changes to my old setup. And I'll be doing the same thing. I also really like using random start with RnD, Frostfall, Hunterborn and also a mod which removes all starting spells besides ones related to your race. Then I drop all my gear, I'm basically naked and I start out in the woods and just work my way up with finding scrap wood and stones, making tools, (This is basically all in the menu for now), and then making myself a shitty bow and arrow as I begin hunting wolves to get bones to make axes and stuff to fight. It's a slow, but rewarding feel to the game. And sure it only lasts 2-3 levels, but It's some of the most fun.

[QUOTE=J!NX;46562362](in skyrim) Once you really level up your magic user not ONLY are you way more powerful than compared to if you had a bow or melee weapons, but you have insane range and damage, and healing, allowing you to blow everything away in your path. It gets silly.[/QUOTE] that's not really true at all enchanting/smithing along with all the damage upgrade perks and high level material weapons gives you absolutely ridiculously broken damage with minimal effort and let's not even talk about alchemy that shit is wack.

[QUOTE=elowin;46562473]that's not really true at all enchanting/smithing along with all the damage upgrade perks and high level material weapons gives you absolutely ridiculously broken damage with minimal effort and let's not even talk about alchemy that shit is wack.[/QUOTE] I did that dual legendary axes with fire/lightning ice/something else and totally shit on everything on my path but as a mage I had maxed fire breath + fire EXPLOSION spells and ice or lightning, so while I was OP as a melee character, magic is sitting around and "Lol ur dead"

I feel like Skyrim's combat is terrible not because of stats or balance but because Bethesda for serious cannot make a game on their own engine with combat that doesn't feel sticky or sluggish. Also see: Fallout games Playing a Bethesda game for a couple hours is equivalent to learning how to sail a boat

Gamebryo rebranded to Creation Engine where they put minimal amount of work in order for it to run better on consoles, there you have it, they really need to get rid off that shit engine.

[QUOTE=Grindigo;46562650]Gamebryo rebranded to Creation Engine where they put minimal amount of work in order for it to run better on consoles, there you have it, they really need to get rid off that shit engine.[/QUOTE] oblivion already showed engine age imho, and they still are trying to use it even now how are they going to keep making money if they don't totally change the engine

At least they added shadows to "creation engine", everything on gamebryo just looked horrible without them, kinda like a fullbright Source map