• México should legalize drugs in order to stop the narcotrafic violence? But U.S would allowed it?
    74 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48549173]How the hell can heroin be used responsibly? That's like saying that it's possible to drink paint thinner without ill health effects.[/QUOTE] Pretty easy to not abuse heroin if you're not depressed. [editline]27th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;48554444]Can't this be used to justify literally everything? Murder, rape, theft, and arson are not allowed, but people do it anyways. What are marginal consumers? I'm all for having health clinics to help people, and to treat addicts as victims not criminals. Legalizing heroin is not going to help with these problems. I can also grow anthrax strains responsibly. Don't trivialize heroin like it's on the same level as marijuana.[/QUOTE] And heroin is no different than any of your doctor prescribed narcotic painkillers, aka opiates/opioids. They act on the same receptors so it feels the same exact way. The main issue with heroin is it is widely unregulated and is a powdered substance which can be who knows what from various painkillers crushed up to brown sugar. A common misconception is one must IV heroin and that's simply not true, it's just the most pleasurable, but that would be true for any euphoric drug as IV administration has the highest bioavailability and uptake than any route of administration (ROA) You mustn't speak about drugs if you're misinformed. It causes more problems than it solves to say a drug is "bad" All drugs have their uses even if most are recreational.
[QUOTE=cody8295;48554705]Handling anthrax puts much more people in much more danger than the occasional junkie[/QUOTE] you ignored all of the other points [QUOTE=CoilingTesla;48554776]Do you know what doctors prescribe for physical trauma and surgery recovery? It's exactly the same as heroin to your body. Oxycodone, which is legal, is more potent an opiate than heroin. Not to mention you can legally buy and grow Papavier Somniferum and guess what comes from that plant...[/QUOTE] And the small quantities used in medicine are the same quantities used for recreation? [editline]28th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=zach1193;48554830]Pretty easy to not abuse heroin if you're not depressed.[/quote] Any sources on this? [quote]And heroin is no different than any of your doctor prescribed narcotic painkillers, aka opiates/opioids. They act on the same receptors so it feels the same exact way. The main issue with heroin is it is widely unregulated and is a powdered substance which can be who knows what from various painkillers crushed up to brown sugar. A common misconception is one must IV heroin and that's simply not true, it's just the most pleasurable, but that would be true for any euphoric drug as IV administration has the highest bioavailability and uptake than any route of administration (ROA) You mustn't speak about drugs if you're misinformed. It causes more problems than it solves to say a drug is "bad" All drugs have their uses even if most are recreational.[/QUOTE] This doesn't cover the issues that would be apparently fixed by legalization. Would there be a beneficial impact to legalizing heroin? What sort of regulations would be introduced for it? How commonly available will it be?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48556029] And the small quantities used in medicine are the same quantities used for recreation?[/QUOTE] Yes, until you let yourself become dependant. Generally if you're addicted to it, your tolerance justifies an increase in dose. Which happens to a lot of people recovering from traumatic injuries and are prescribed opiates for a long duration of time. You avoid that by not being ignorant about it or letting yourself go, which legalization would hopefully help to educate people about these drugs and their interactions with your nervous system.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48556029]you ignored all of the other points And the small quantities used in medicine are the same quantities used for recreation? [editline]28th August 2015[/editline] Any sources on this? This doesn't cover the issues that would be apparently fixed by legalization. Would there be a beneficial impact to legalizing heroin? What sort of regulations would be introduced for it? How commonly available will it be?[/QUOTE] For starters, there'd be no black market so malicious organizations don't have money, it would be regulated and available to whoever over the age of 21 and have clear warning labels just like you would a medicine. Users can use safely and responsibly (just like alcohol) and will be sure they are getting a pure and safe product. Of course you'll have abusers, that's with anything pleasurable. It would also just be more convenient to be able to buy strong pain medicine OFC instead of having to have some major excuse. Anyone who wants the drugs will seek them out anyways, the law hardly makes a difference in this case.
[QUOTE=CoilingTesla;48556504]Yes, until you let yourself become dependant. Generally if you're addicted to it, your tolerance justifies an increase in dose. Which happens to a lot of people recovering from traumatic injuries and are prescribed opiates for a long duration of time. You avoid that by not being ignorant about it or letting yourself go, which legalization would hopefully help to educate people about these drugs and their interactions with your nervous system.[/QUOTE] I don't think that making it legal and therefore increasing the availability of it is a particularly good idea. If heroin was something you could buy easily without a prescription then education wouldn't suffice to stop a lot of people from having the stuff. Education only goes so far, and if heroin was mass-produced and widely available from any old shop then you would have a massive increase in the number of addicts suffering from poor health. It could quite easily develop into a fullblown health crisis given enough time. [editline]28th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=zach1193;48556545]For starters, there'd be no black market so malicious organizations don't have money, it would be regulated and available to whoever over the age of 21 and have clear warning labels just like you would a medicine. Users can use safely and responsibly (just like alcohol) and will be sure they are getting a pure and safe product. Of course you'll have abusers, that's with anything pleasurable. It would also just be more convenient to be able to buy strong pain medicine OFC instead of having to have some major excuse. Anyone who wants the drugs will seek them out anyways, the law hardly makes a difference in this case.[/QUOTE] Why do people keep saying that the law doesn't do anything? If laws didn't stop people from doing things, why do we even have laws? Again, it's possible to manufacture a safe product for people who are genuinely sick and suffer from withdrawal symptoms and give them medical treatment - while also keeping the general distribution of the product banned. Additionally, druglords are adaptable. If you take away drug money they will just move into human trafficking or ransoms. Restricting an aspect of their business doesn't get rid of or weaken them.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48556592]I don't think that making it legal and therefore increasing the availability of it is a particularly good idea. If heroin was something you could buy easily without a prescription then education wouldn't suffice to stop a lot of people from having the stuff. Education only goes so far, and if heroin was mass-produced and widely available from any old shop then you would have a massive increase in the number of addicts suffering from poor health. It could quite easily develop into a fullblown health crisis given enough time.[/QUOTE] No it already is what it is, and users and abusers already exist, this number won't go up because it's legal, but the amount of overdoses and issues related to impure and unsafe substances will go down. Where are you getting this idea? Have you personally experienced and talked to drug users? It doesn't and never has mattered if it's legal because in our eye's there's no reason it should be illegal as we're not hurting anyone else, and disregard those laws... basically if you wanna do it you're gonna do it, law or not, might as well not prosecute something that people naturally want to experience, or don't it's everyone's own choice. [editline]27th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;48556592]I don't think that making it legal and therefore increasing the availability of it is a particularly good idea. If heroin was something you could buy easily without a prescription then education wouldn't suffice to stop a lot of people from having the stuff. Education only goes so far, and if heroin was mass-produced and widely available from any old shop then you would have a massive increase in the number of addicts suffering from poor health. It could quite easily develop into a fullblown health crisis given enough time. [editline]28th August 2015[/editline] Why do people keep saying that the law doesn't do anything? If laws didn't stop people from doing things, why do we even have laws? Again, it's possible to manufacture a safe product for people who are genuinely sick and suffer from withdrawal symptoms and give them medical treatment - while also keeping the general distribution of the product banned.[/QUOTE] And because this law in particular is a stupid law, murder, great, theft, sure!, drugs, why is this illegal... money
The law doesn't stop anyone from doing drugs. You, and only you decide what you do with your body. Does legalization completely disregard anyone's responsibilities? The only thing that will change is we'll have more non-violent addicts [I]out of[/I] prison than [I]in[/I]. When the addicts can be let out of prison and left to be, maybe they will find the help, or reasoning and productivity, to not be addicts anymore.
[QUOTE=zach1193;48556619]No it already is what it is, and users and abusers already exist, this number won't go up because it's legal, but the amount of overdoses and issues related to impure and unsafe substances will go down.[/quote] If you legalize it and make it easier for people to buy, then naturally a bigger market will exist. There is less risk, the prices are lower, the purity better, etc. Saying that the number of users will stay the same is basically ignoring reality. [quote]Where are you getting this idea? Have you personally experienced and talked to drug users? It doesn't and never has mattered if it's legal because in our eye's there's no reason it should be illegal as we're not hurting anyone else, and disregard those laws... basically if you wanna do it you're gonna do it, law or not, might as well not prosecute something that people naturally want to experience, or don't it's everyone's own choice.[/quote] Well unless my mother counts, but I haven't talked to many people who physically and mentally decay before your eyes. [quote]And because this law in particular is a stupid law, murder, great, theft, sure!, drugs, why is this illegal... money[/QUOTE] This makes no sense at all. What do you mean money? I mean a lot of drugs tended to be banned due to racism (opium, marijuana, cocaine) and/or a moral panic, not because of moneyed interests. [QUOTE=CoilingTesla;48556666]The law doesn't stop anyone from doing drugs. You, and only you decide what you do with your body. Does legalization completely disregard anyone's responsibilities? The only thing that will change is we'll have more non-violent addicts [I]out of[/I] prison than [I]in[/I]. When the addicts can be let out of prison and left to be, maybe they will find the help, or reasoning and productivity, to not be addicts anymore.[/QUOTE] No. You can put addicts in hospital instead of prison, but additionally keep it banned. This is not a hard concept to understand.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48556721]No. You can put addicts in hospital instead of prison, but additionally keep it banned. This is not a hard concept to understand.[/QUOTE] Except that by nature addicts are habitual offenders and therefore instead of being sent to hospital, after an arbitrary number of arrests, you get a straight to jail card, over, and over again. You're gonna have to explain that to me, bud, how can you have it banned, but not arrest them for it? Wouldn't that require decriminalization?
[QUOTE=CoilingTesla;48556745]Except that by nature addicts are habitual offenders and therefore instead of being sent to hospital, after an arbitrary number of arrests, you get a straight to jail card, over, and over again.[/QUOTE] Or you could reform the justice system so that people who are meant to be in hospital actually go to hospital instead of prison.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48556757]Or you could reform the justice system so that people who are meant to be in hospital actually go to hospital instead of prison.[/QUOTE] THIS IS WHAT DECRIMINALIZATION IS.
[QUOTE=CoilingTesla;48556768]THIS IS WHAT DECRIMINALIZATION IS.[/QUOTE] Everybody in the thread has been talking about legalization.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48556816]Everybody in the thread has been talking about legalization.[/QUOTE] Its at least a step in the right direction.
legalizing weed is a great idea because it will end weed culture [editline]28th August 2015[/editline] I hate socks with pot leafs on them with an incredible passion
Legalizing all drugs is ridiculous. Do you know how much a company could exploit people by including addictive substances in pharmaceuticals if there were no regulations at all on what drugs were sold? If you're selling a substance specifically designed to alter one's body in a substantial way, you should have a legal responsibility to make sure it's safe for human consumption. [editline]27th August 2015[/editline] Like, you can't say "any drug ever is legal" in one breath and try to regulate it in the other. Once you say something that causes horrible shit like Krokodile is legal, anything fucking goes. What's to stop people from selling a drug that causes immune system failure, paralyzation, deaths in 9/10 users, or brain damage? Do you honestly trust companies to regulate themselves?
[QUOTE=CoilingTesla;48556879]Its at least a step in the right direction.[/QUOTE] A step in the right direction is to treat addicts as sick people who need medical help. Legalizing heroin won't do a jot to help that.
Drugs aren't a normal consumer product though, the demand is already there, and already being supplied, legalizing it isn't going to create a bigger market, just a safer one. [editline]28th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;48561669]A step in the right direction is to treat addicts as sick people who need medical help. Legalizing heroin won't do a jot to help that.[/QUOTE] If you want to work all day and use heroin, there's nothing wrong with that. You seem to be coming from the party of thought that addicts are bad and that's that. If you're a functional addict, there's nothing wrong with that especially when you can support and afford your habit. Addiction can be hell for people but sometimes being addicted to something is better than hating your life everyday. [editline]28th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48557786]Legalizing all drugs is ridiculous. Do you know how much a company could exploit people by including addictive substances in pharmaceuticals if there were no regulations at all on what drugs were sold? If you're selling a substance specifically designed to alter one's body in a substantial way, you should have a legal responsibility to make sure it's safe for human consumption. [editline]27th August 2015[/editline] Like, you can't say "any drug ever is legal" in one breath and try to regulate it in the other. Once you say something that causes horrible shit like Krokodile is legal, anything fucking goes. What's to stop people from selling a drug that causes immune system failure, paralyzation, deaths in 9/10 users, or brain damage? Do you honestly trust companies to regulate themselves?[/QUOTE] If you legalized other opiate/opioids there would be 0 demand for krokodil. The people commenting on this thread and posting against legalization seem to be going off of Vice articles and news stories.
even with legalization there will still be off-hand sales going because taxation if the government was to legalize said drugs, there would be taxes imposed, along with age limits, ID cards, new laws, etc. most people would probably go along with it, but you'll still have your handful of folks who want none of that.
I say we fully legalize all drugs that have shown to not destroy people's lives (weed, lsd, shrooms, mescaline, DMT) then worry about hard drugs afterwards. The evidence is clear on these not ruining peoples lives (not counting the prejudice against them).
[QUOTE=Pops;48562919]even with legalization there will still be off-hand sales going because taxation if the government was to legalize said drugs, there would be taxes imposed, along with age limits, ID cards, new laws, etc. most people would probably go along with it, but you'll still have your handful of folks who want none of that.[/QUOTE] thats not a problem with alcohol or tobacco, why should it be with weed? the only issue we have there is people buying booze at full price including tax for underage people
[QUOTE=zach1193;48561799]Drugs aren't a normal consumer product though, the demand is already there, and already being supplied, legalizing it isn't going to create a bigger market, just a safer one.[/quote] Except by legalizing and normalizing it, you are only making it much easier for people to buy. A lot of people right now are turned off from buying heroin due to either the illegality of it, or due to the fact a lot of it is adulterated. If companies were selling heroin over the counter, with high purity and low cost, then there would be a massive uptake in use. This has happened in history whenever a cheap and readily available drug has become commonly available (hard spirits in the 18th century, tobacco, opium in the 19th century, etc. Just look at China in the 19th century. It's a prime example of the problems of having this shit out and about. The British forced the Chinese to open their markets to opium, and forced them to keep the industry legal. The eventual result was a gradual decay of Chinese health and society as millions of people turned to opium. The use of opium was considered far too profitable to ban, so for the best part of a century many millions of Chinese people suffered from being addicted to opium (which got steadily more powerful, cheaper, and widely available). [quote]The people commenting on this thread and posting against legalization seem to be going off of Vice articles and news stories.[/QUOTE] I'm going off history. The war on drugs may be failing and all, but the answer isn't to legalize it.
[QUOTE=butre;48563403]thats not a problem with alcohol or tobacco, why should it be with weed? the only issue we have there is people buying booze at full price including tax for underage people[/QUOTE] it already exists man, go to colorado and you'll find plenty of people who still import their shit from california to dodge taxes, and in addition to that iirc growing it for your own use is legal but selling isn't.
Drugs should be legal unless you have a record of abusing them. A war on violent drug abusers sounds better than a war on everybody who uses illicit drugs
[QUOTE=cody8295;48564179]Drugs should be legal unless you have a record of abusing them. A war on violent drug abusers sounds better than a war on everybody who uses illicit drugs[/QUOTE] I support legalizing softer drugs such as marijuana, but I also support keeping hard drugs like heroin illegal. Doing such a thing would allow the authorities to focus on the actual dangerous drugs and leave the ones which have little to no negative impact alone.
[QUOTE=zach1193;48561799]Drugs aren't a normal consumer product though, the demand is already there, and already being supplied, legalizing it isn't going to create a bigger market, just a safer one. [editline]28th August 2015[/editline] If you want to work all day and use heroin, there's nothing wrong with that. You seem to be coming from the party of thought that addicts are bad and that's that. If you're a functional addict, there's nothing wrong with that especially when you can support and afford your habit. Addiction can be hell for people but sometimes being addicted to something is better than hating your life everyday. [editline]28th August 2015[/editline] If you legalized other opiate/opioids there would be 0 demand for krokodil. The people commenting on this thread and posting against legalization seem to be going off of Vice articles and news stories.[/QUOTE] My point is not that people are going to start taking Krokodil because it's legal, my point is that big companies with lots of resources will suddenly be able to legally use their resources to produce the most addictive substances they can without any regard for the possible side effects.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48565095]My point is not that people are going to start taking Krokodil because it's legal, my point is that big companies with lots of resources will suddenly be able to legally use their resources to produce the most addictive substances they can without any regard for the possible side effects.[/QUOTE] There's still the FDA to regulate products' safety. If drugs were legalized, I don't think candy companies are going to start putting meth in their sweets to hook people on them physically. What do you think is going to happen, though? Companies will create super addictive drugs for the sole reason of making a permanent consumer base? Research on pretty much all drugs already exists, and any new drugs will have the same research very quickly.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48564398]I support legalizing softer drugs such as marijuana, but I also support keeping hard drugs like heroin illegal. Doing such a thing would allow the authorities to focus on the actual dangerous drugs and leave the ones which have little to no negative impact alone.[/QUOTE] Holy shit what don't you get about users will still use, make it safer, don't you understand?
Just because a drug is legalized, doesn't mean its any easier to get. We have regulations for a reason. Besides, you can already get any legal or illegal drug from a single online market and it can be delivered straight to your mailbox. I don't think it gets much easier than that. Anti-drug laws only make the black market stronger. If these things were legal and regulated we could not only make them safer, we could disarm this false sense of "safety" you have, letting the government do all the critical thinking for your health.
[QUOTE=Quark:;48568627]There's still the FDA to regulate products' safety. If drugs were legalized, I don't think candy companies are going to start putting meth in their sweets to hook people on them physically. What do you think is going to happen, though? Companies will create super addictive drugs for the sole reason of making a permanent consumer base? Research on pretty much all drugs already exists, and any new drugs will have the same research very quickly.[/QUOTE] But we're discussing the idea of legalizing [I]every[/I] drug, regardless of the product's safety. Otherwise drugs like Krokodile would definitely not be legal. The very concept would mean that the FDA has no power to stop a dangerous drug from being legally sold. To say that research on all possible drugs already exists is nonsensical, of course more deliberately addictive drugs could be developed given a legal market for them.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48570501]But we're discussing the idea of legalizing [I]every[/I] drug, regardless of the product's safety. Otherwise drugs like Krokodile would definitely not be legal. The very concept would mean that the FDA has no power to stop a dangerous drug from being legally sold. To say that research on all possible drugs already exists is nonsensical, of course more deliberately addictive drugs could be developed given a legal market for them.[/QUOTE] The FDA already has essentially no real power, if they did, drugs wouldn't be as prevailent as they are. I'm willing to argue that drug use would see much less death's and negative consequences to drug use and abuse if they were legalized and regulated. And using china and britains opium scenario isn't a good example because the brits were also raping the shit out of the chinese before the wars started and such. Opiates (basically the biggest epidemic (if you must call it that) that humanity has faced as far as drugs are concerned) aren't going anywhere. They come from a plant, domestic to this earth and so we must accept that they exist therefore humans are going to consume the drugs contained within. No law is going to stop that, but laws regulating such substances (not illegalizing them of course) seems to me the only logical way to go about it. In my honest opinion I think it's just ridiculous to tell people what they can and can't put into their bodies. Who the fuck cares if it can kill you or cause issues, not everyone wants to live the longest they can as it is, who is anyone else to tell an individual what to do with one's self. and as far as effecting other people, that really boils down to the big groups that produce the drugs and crime is a result of such. This is certainly an important and complicated issue, but by no means is this rocket science.
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