[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;47658972]I just find it absolutely insane people want or expect the gender binary to go away. Its perfectly fine if you dont like them, but I hate it when these people expect the WHOLE world just to bend over backwards for them personally because of what they personally want.
I hate using this word but it always comes off as serious entitlement.
We have Man/Women/Boy/Girl(and whatever intersex calls itself if it has anything) so we have some context of the person we are talking about. Its like these people dont think new things would replace those if they somehow didnt exist. Its like trying to explain colors without saying Red,Blue,Green.
Plus, regardless of what these people want to believe, sex isnt a social construct, its straight up nature that isnt even exclusive to humans. Hell, unlike the humans who call themselves Asexual, the actual animals that are Asexual are a legit defined sex with actual asexual reproduction(humans dont have that). We needed words for the male and female so we could have SOME context of just what the hell we are trying to talk about. Like I said, if male and female werent used to differentiate the sexes, something else would have to.
I really cant seeing anything more than people whining and wanting everyone else to follow them because of personal feelings. Ive never seen an actual argument against binary gender other than "it makes me feel bad"[/QUOTE]
I can see why they want to get rid of the binary, the only issue is that humans. By nature, use stereotypes and not in a negative way.
To remove stereotypes would mean you would have to have every human being, review and rebuild their world view, every single second.
That's just not possible we use stereotypes to streamline things ranging from conversation to who to ask out/flirt with.
It can and has been used negatively, but it really has a neutral purpose that's been abused for negatives.
[QUOTE=Jmir 54;47659053]Everyone in that video above is insane and needs therapy
or just teenagers idk same thing[/QUOTE]
They all seem incredibly vain
Not a single humble personality among them, they're all shouting to the sky about their specialness
It's the patronising ones that get on my fucking nerves, "like wow guys how can you not know this? >_<"
Do what you want, but don't expect others to instantly catch on, especially as a minority
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;47657662]my girlfriend is genderfluid, so I can explain; it's really pretty simple.
to be genderfluid is to espouse and identify with traits that are generally held in mutual exclusivity to one another - things considered traditionally "masculine" and "feminine" traits. So for instance, perhaps you enjoy having long hair and wearing makeup, a traditionally feminine trait. In standard conceptions of gender, this likely puts you in opposition to wanting to sport a beard and to wear collared shirts with a tie. In people who are genderfluid, they identify with and enjoy expressing both.
[/QUOTE]
uhh
pretty sure everyone has something from the other gender inside them, whether it has to do with appearance, mannerisms or personality traits
I'm a guy who takes pride in his masculine outward appearance but I'm also not afraid or ashamed of looking or acting feminine
don't think I'd label myself as genderfluid though
Most of these seem like genuine questions, "what bathroom do you use" that seems like something you would want to know, and yet these people just laugh at people wanting to learn about their orientation, I wonder why most people don't give a fuck about them
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;47657662]my girlfriend is genderfluid, so I can explain; it's really pretty simple.
to be genderfluid is to espouse and identify with traits that are generally held in mutual exclusivity to one another - things considered traditionally "masculine" and "feminine" traits. So for instance, perhaps you enjoy having long hair and wearing makeup, a traditionally feminine trait. In standard conceptions of gender, this likely puts you in opposition to wanting to sport a beard and to wear collared shirts with a tie. In people who are genderfluid, they identify with and enjoy expressing both.[/QUOTE]
So gender is a bunch of stereotype-based traits now. Okay. I like tasty fancy cocktails, I like messing with my hair, I also like my facial hair, drinking beer and I drive a car better than a complete fucking disaster waiting to happen (which is a stereotypical trait opposite of stereotypical traits that women are said to possess).
I take it that I just have to call myself genderfluid now to actually [b]be[/b] genderfluid.
Or its just a label created specifically for someone to feel special about while being exactly like everybody else on the planet except for people hell-bent on expressing only one particular set of characteristics. Alright.
My issue with the whole tumblr gender identity thing is that it seems really misguided. Instead of working against gender roles and discrimination based on gender they instead make gender the most important, defining thing about them and something that has to do with how feminine/masculine they feel or are. Doesn't that kind of reinforce gender roles instead?
In an equal society free of gender roles, a boy or a girl could be as masculine or feminine as they want, right? The gender wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with their personality or how they're treated. Meaning, the tumblr definition of gender would have no purpose at all. And at that point, is there really anything wrong with simply defining a boy/man as a male person and a girl/woman as a female person? While letting people with gender dysphoria identify as the opposite gender if they have to. Gender dysphoria really has to do with sex, doesn't it? As in, a person who is born male but wants to have a female body instead or vice versa. That's why they take hormones and such, to match the sex they want to be born as. And if gender has nothing to do with your sex (as in the tumblr definition), gender has nothing to do with it.
A lot of languages don't differentiate between sex or gender either, and people pretty much never did in english until like 2 and a half years ago
i don't know where people get the idea that all genderfluid people are just making gender their pure identity
[editline]5th May 2015[/editline]
honestly if you want to be taken seriously i would stop using 'tumblr' so frequently in-sentence. i'm sure there are a lot of people with gender dysphoria/non cis folks who don't associate themselves with it or anybody related to it
like it's not a tumblr definition. gender and sex are literally two distinct objects in almost all modern context including medical
[URL]http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/[/URL]
[quote=Wikipedia on Gender]
[B]Gender[/B] is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity"]masculinity[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femininity"]femininity[/URL]. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex"]sex[/URL] (i.e. the state of being male, female or [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex"]intersex[/URL]), sex-based [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure"]social structures[/URL] (including [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role"]gender roles[/URL] and other [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role"]social roles[/URL]), or [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity"]gender identity[/URL]. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-udry-1"][1][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-haig-2"][2][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-www.who.int-3"][3][/URL]
[/quote]
I can't even imagine what middle school would be like right now considering how far gender theory has penetrated contemporary discourse. Even just 10 years ago none of this would have made sense to kids at my school.
Middle school is like those kids on the bus that said shit no one wanted to hear but now they yell it because it's socially unacceptable to judge people.
I stopped riding the school bus when the furries took over ~3 years ago
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;47658753]But aren't these things just called being manly/being effeminate ? There are already words out there for this kind of stuff that sound incredibly less obnoxious and pretentious than a special snowflake term like genderfluid.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=NotMeh;47659433]uhh
pretty sure everyone has something from the other gender inside them, whether it has to do with appearance, mannerisms or personality traits
I'm a guy who takes pride in his masculine outward appearance but I'm also not afraid or ashamed of looking or acting feminine
don't think I'd label myself as genderfluid though[/QUOTE]
there's a difference, though. as a dude I thoroughly align myself with traditional masculine traits - I've got a barrel chest, a loud voice, more hair than I can handle, etc. However I also have feminine traits. I'm quite affectionate, focus on conflict resolution as opposed to aggression, enjoy cooking, etc etc. However, those "feminine" traits are very much a dusting in comparison to my actual gender identity - if someone were to ask me whether I was a dude or a chick, I would pretty easily identify as a dude. just because I do feminine things doesn't really change the way I perceive my own gender.
for some people that are genderfluid, it goes above and beyond this - it's not about being a "special snowflake" and it's really insulting that you'd claim that's what it is. they identify so strongly with both masculine and feminine traits that are in opposition to each other that they would have a difficult time answering "dude or chick" and might be inclined to answer "both". for many, being genderfluid dovetails with being a sort of "almost" trans - strongly identifying with the gender assigned to the opposite sex without giving up their own gender and without the desire to physically change their sex.
[QUOTE=gudman;47659869]So gender is a bunch of stereotype-based traits now. Okay. I like tasty fancy cocktails, I like messing with my hair, I also like my facial hair, drinking beer and I drive a car better than a complete fucking disaster waiting to happen (which is a stereotypical trait opposite of stereotypical traits that women are said to possess).
I take it that I just have to call myself genderfluid now to actually [b]be[/b] genderfluid.
Or its just a label created specifically for someone to feel special about while being exactly like everybody else on the planet except for people hell-bent on expressing only one particular set of characteristics. Alright.[/QUOTE]
gender is extremely stereotypical! that's why it's such a difficult thing. gender as it's socially constructed tells people of both sexes specifically how they're supposed to act in social settings, and to operate outside the bounds of those established social parameters would label you as strange, weird, or outside the norm. aka, one of the reasons why people who are genderfluid are looked at so strangely and bizarrely! people like easy labels that they can apply to themselves and to others - it assists in creating a sense of identity for the self and a sense of logic and order to the rest of the world. it helps groups establish collective identities.
and asking yourself whether you are genderfluid or not is really entirely up to you - anyone should be free to dictate their own gender, and I'm not going to stop them.
honestly I'm amazed that out of all of the very much bizarre and out there social constructs that people call "gender" that this one is so controversial. we're not talking about otherkin or whatever, these are simply people who identify strongly with both stereo-typically traditional masculine and feminine traits, and effectively exist in the middleground between the two genders moving back and forth as contexts, situations, and emotional state dictate.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;47661273]
honestly I'm amazed that out of all of the very much bizarre and out there social constructs that people call "gender" that this one is so controversial. we're not talking about otherkin or whatever, these are simply people who identify strongly with both stereo-typically traditional masculine and feminine traits, and effectively exist in the middleground between the two genders moving back and forth as contexts, situations, and emotional state dictate.[/QUOTE]
Sir, I'd be hard pressed to find anyone on facepunch who agree with the idea of otherkin.
There's gender in the sense of something that your brain thinks you ought to be that exists on a biological level, but then there's gender in the sense of character traits somewhat arbitrarily assigned to either sex, which should taken about as seriously as astrology.
Since when did behaviours constitute "genders"?
If a boy doesn't have gender identity disorder, but crossdresses or play with girls toys that doesn't make them genderfluid or whatever. They're still male.
If a girl doesn't have gender identity disorder, and wears mens clothing or works in construction or is a body builder that doesn't stop them being female.
The way I see it, there's boys and girls, plus people who transition from one into the other because they happen to feel uncomfortable with their body.
Seems like a disproportionate amount of these people are just angry
I mean it could be cherrypicking, just seems like a lot of these vines are just mad people
I just puked on my own titties
hey this just in, a lot of trans people are fucked up by cisheteronormivity and feel like shit for being literally unable to figure out what their feelings meant earlier, but not knowing that transgender people exist kept them from doing that (or even the thought that it only matters if you figure it out at a really young age is bullcrap)
I'd rather have people getting confused by all these identity conventions than never ever question your own gender or self at all
I would've started hormone blockers so long ago if at the time I didn't feel like an horrible inhuman monster for having feelings that no one else around me did
[editline]4th May 2015[/editline]
but nah we should cater to the cishets, their comfort is more important than the minority of people that aren't "normal"
[QUOTE=Levithan;47661801]hey this just in, a lot of trans people are fucked up by cisheteronormivity and feel like shit for being literally unable to figure out what their feelings meant earlier[/quote]
Cisheteronormativity isn't even a word, and it doesn't mean anything.
Cis (on the same side, same as), hetero (other, different), normativity (normal or correct way).
What you are saying is contradictory. No wonder people are getting fucked up and feeling like shit if the words they use to communicate with other people are unable to express meaning.
[quote]I'd rather have people getting confused by all these identity conventions than never ever question your own gender or self at all[/quote]
Most of these identity conventions are meaningless, contradictory, or cannot be generalized and therefore as conventions are useless.
[quote]but nah we should cater to the cishets, their comfort is more important than the minority of people that aren't "normal"[/QUOTE]
What is a cishet? Is it a kind of tool used by farmers?
At what point do we stop belittling teenagers for being teenagery and start accepting that maybe that's actually who/how they are? Do we wait a couple months, a year, or until their an adult until we stop treating them like self-entitled egoists who want to feel special? How much of their life should we set aside for laughing at them and making them feel like shit?
If they're trying to be special and get attention, the best way to give them that is to validate their fears by laughing at them and shutting them down. You could all either just ignore the video or just try and be a bit more tolerant. Yes it's not helpful to be yelled at for something you didn't know / bother to learn, but you can also apologise and then try and learn so it doesn't happen again.
That way you don't feel like a horrible human being when some, if not all, turn out to be who they feel they are (what a surprise!)
Is it possible for these things to be 1: real things and 2: more than just a tiny tiny group of people have them but aren't visible because of these kinds of responses? If you answer yes to these questions, then just be a little more tolerant. You can still be accepting of people even if they throw it back in your face because they're teenagers or something, complaining about their behaviour by picking on their self-identified traits isn't going to stop them though, just make them feel bad (and it makes you the dick, not them).
[QUOTE=Levithan;47661801]hey this just in, a lot of trans people are fucked up by cisheteronormivity and feel like shit for being literally unable to figure out what their feelings meant earlier, but not knowing that transgender people exist kept them from doing that (or even the thought that it only matters if you figure it out at a really young age is bullcrap)
I'd rather have people getting confused by all these identity conventions than never ever question your own gender or self at all
I would've started hormone blockers so long ago if at the time I didn't feel like an horrible inhuman monster for having feelings that no one else around me did
[editline]4th May 2015[/editline]
but nah we should cater to the cishets, their comfort is more important than the minority of people that aren't "normal"[/QUOTE]
You lost as soon as you said cishet, a term that no self respecting student or professor would use in gender studies, because that term is used only by people who've taken a glancing look at this shit.
[editline]5th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=gerbe1;47661912]At what point do we stop belittling teenagers for being teenagery and start accepting that maybe that's actually who/how they are? Do we wait a couple months, a year, or until their an adult until we stop treating them like self-entitled egoists who want to feel special? How much of their life should we set aside for laughing at them and making them feel like shit?
If they're trying to be special and get attention, the best way to give them that is to validate their fears by laughing at them and shutting them down. You could all either just ignore the video or just try and be a bit more tolerant. Yes it's not helpful to be yelled at for something you didn't know / bother to learn, but you can also apologise and then try and learn so it doesn't happen again.
That way you don't feel like a horrible human being when some, if not all, turn out to be who they feel they are (what a surprise!)
Is it possible for these things to be 1: real things and 2: more than just a tiny tiny group of people have them but aren't visible because of these kinds of responses? If you answer yes to these questions, then just be a little more tolerant. You can still be accepting of people even if they throw it back in your face because they're teenagers or something, complaining about their behaviour by picking on their self-identified traits isn't going to stop them though, just make them feel bad (and it makes you the dick, not them).[/QUOTE]
The problem is that these teenagers don't take a glancing second to research or even ask. There's a difference between exploring ones sexuality through means that gives them the best chance to succeed and what there song here, which is blind, naked and uncontrolled forays in subject they don't understand at all while their peers who do and might be suffering from b these conditions become belittled or discouraged by their fellow age groups ignorance.
[video=youtube;wuR_ALpzG9s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuR_ALpzG9s[/video]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("reaction video" - Orkel))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Levithan;47661801]I'd rather have people getting confused by all these identity conventions than never ever question your own gender or self at all[/QUOTE]
I'd rather them not, personally.
As a girl who ended up living as "genderfluid" for a few months it was basically a pointless fucking roadblock on my path to transition. It kept me from realizing I was uncomfortable as a male sooner. It really does nothing but make you look dumb.
These kids will either realize they aren't anything or realize that their labels are dumb and will eventually say to themselves, "I'm a feminine man" or "I'm a masculine girl" which is really what the train of thought should be. Because that way they can just try to accept themselves as such and either be happy or question to themselves if they really are truly the same gender as their sex.
These dumb labels only seek to giving some sort of answer that's not going to satisfy you in the long run. Or to be abused by dumb tweens looking to be special snow flakes.
i miss it when kids were just emo and goth
not to mention this greatly discredits any adults or people who 100% seriously identify as these things
[editline]5th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=fudge blood;47661704]I just puked on my own titties[/QUOTE]
i want to marry this post wow
[QUOTE=Swilly;47662024]You lost as soon as you said cishet, a term that no self respecting student or professor would use in gender studies, because that term is used only by people who've taken a glancing look at this shit.
[editline]5th May 2015[/editline]
The problem is that these teenagers don't take a glancing second to research or even ask. There's a difference between exploring ones sexuality through means that gives them the best chance to succeed and what there song here, which is blind, naked and uncontrolled forays in subject they don't understand at all while their peers who do and might be suffering from b these conditions become belittled or discouraged by their fellow age groups ignorance.[/QUOTE]
You can't fight teenagers though you have to work alongside them even when they're wrong. Aka don't get aggressive and rude and become less considerate than them in the process. This is what I was pointing out. Fight their ignorance with patience and politeness.
Don't post about how being teenagers just means they are completely invalidated. Not that you did I was responding to many of the posts here in general.
im gettin to old for this shit
Got a prick = Male
Got a cunt = Female
Wanna change your gender, you'll have to change your junk as well
That's my honest opinion
Damn am I glad I thought the entire internet was addictinggames.com and albino blacksheep when I was a kid.
[editline]4th May 2015[/editline]
Shonen jump fucked me up some, but not too bad.
[QUOTE=gary spivey;47662255]Got a prick = Male
Got a cunt = Female
Wanna change your gender, you'll have to change your junk as well
That's my honest opinion[/QUOTE]
On top of being honest, your opinion is also wrong, since GID is a full on documented medical condition.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;47662376]On top of being honest, your opinion is also wrong, since GID is a full on documented medical condition.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say that, I just said you'd have to change your junk
Just to clarify
[QUOTE=gary spivey;47662381]I didn't say that, I just said you'd have to change your junk
Just to clarify[/QUOTE]
I'm going to ignore all the other problems with this and, for now, ask you this one question:
What are you going to say to all the transgender people who can't afford to have sexual reassignment surgery?
Growing up is hard, you are just trying to find who you are in this big big world
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