Euclideon's Unlimited Detail Engine "atoms" are back and they make a Hologram game to show it off - General

I'm confused, is this a parody? They can't genuinely go out there with this condescending as fuck narration all like 'We'll disprove all the naysayers, every doubt was unfounded, look at our great technology' and show this shit, in all seriousness. It looks like total ass and they didn't even address the most glaring issues. Even the 3D environment scans they showed look like absolute crap as most 3D scans do when put into the context of game environments, you can look at them in quiet on their homepage. It's like they legitimately don't understand anything about computer graphics other than the single aspect of geometry and ignore literally every other thing, big or small I mean, its not like their technology is literally useless. It has SOME limited potential in SOME very specific areas but claiming that this particular approach to Voxel-based graphics will absolutely, definitely replace polygon-based graphics in all areas just shows such a baffling disregard for the whole subject matter that I just can't wrap my head around how those guys are serious

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;51040102]Notch isn't exactly the worlds most efficient programmer. Voxels aren't stored specifically in a grid like 2D bitmaps are, Sparse Voxel Octress aren't stored as a 3D array of data, they're stored as a series of nodes than link to data for higher and higher detail. So a voxel object might be a 2x2x2 array and as you raycast each node links to another 2x2x2 node, so on and so forth until you reach the smallest level of detail. Now the trick is, if a node contains no data, meaning if a node is empty space or on the inside of the object, it doesn't need to contain any more subdivided data (the Wikipedia entry Notch actually linked to confirms this). That's why voxel images take up WAY less space than you'd think. So Notch's estimation for how much data the island would take up is flat out wrong. It would still be a ridiculously huge amount of data, don't get me wrong, but it wouldn't be "512 petabytes" of information.[/QUOTE] You're right, but the point remains; it's not nearly as "unlimited" as they claim.

Those hologram rooms seem cooler than their engine. I'd love to see it with a real game.

Procedural generation would probably be a much better way of achieving their "infinite detail" shtick. Games like Space Engine already do it fairly convincingly with hills, mountains, valleys and craters getting more and more detailed when you approach them from beyond the atmosphere. It shouldn't be too hard to apply a similar principle to generate wood veins, metal scratches and skin pores as you look closer.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51040227]Procedural generation would probably be a much better way of achieving their "infinite detail" shtick. Games like Space Engine already do it fairly convincingly with hills, mountains, valleys and craters getting more and more detailed when you approach them from beyond the atmosphere. It shouldn't be too hard to apply a similar principle to generate wood veins, metal scratches and skin pores as you look closer.[/QUOTE] Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't exactly this concept of procedural subdivision of geometri basically what tessellation is all about?

[QUOTE=PelPix123;51040226]lmao atomontage is literally a decade ahead of this engine in implementation and built on the same technology. [video=youtube;rek6ygqwy-k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rek6ygqwy-k[/video] watch this video and see all of their shady claims come to life by the hand of a more private, more dedicated, more passionate progammer.[/QUOTE] pretty much looks like minecraft graphics when you get too close!

this announcer sounds like he's boasting about his discovery of the cure for cancer when he was 2 years old fuckin hell

[QUOTE=Trixil;51040377]this announcer sounds like he's boasting about his discovery of the cure for cancer when he was 2 years old fuckin hell[/QUOTE] While doing a "fuck you 360" around the whole thing.

[QUOTE=gudman;51040026]By the way, wouldn't that... "atomic" structure require a brand new system to render realistic dynamic lighting?[/QUOTE] No there are current systems that already light via voxels (such as VXGI) but it's still too expensive to be practical as of now. Within 5 years it will start to be the norm. [QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;51040158]He seems more of a car seller than ever, seems like they really upgraded their engine though, lighting looks pretty nice, are they (finally) going deferred?[/QUOTE] Deferred makes little sense when you can directly use the voxel data for lighting.

as much as i want them to prove me wrong i dont think this will work until like 10-20 yrs

I would be a million times more likely to rent one of his VR CAVEs if he just called it that instead of going on about a hologram room made of light then again it doesn't look like he put that much effort into content anyway so nevermind

They've got animations working, so that's a step forward.

I bet they're going to make a big thing out of using vulkan, opencl, and upscaling in the future.

[QUOTE=Metist;51039870]I'm willing to give them some time. I don't think they are trying to scam people because they aren't asking for kickstarter money. I think he believes he can actually do it.[/QUOTE] Investors maybe? I really can't see this working.

[QUOTE=Novangel;51041203]Investors maybe? I really can't see this working.[/QUOTE] I can't imagine why the Australian government after all is funding them.

If the speaker didn't sound like such a stereotypical smug Australian cunt, I would probably be more interested in this.

[QUOTE=benzer;51040290]pretty much looks like minecraft graphics when you get too close![/QUOTE] Yeah it seems kinda limited in its use to be honest. Too close and it looks low detail, too far away and the detail is lost.

For a company that apparently has such groundbreaking technology, they sure as shit don't seem to have the budget to have remotely respectable production on their videos. Have they actually released a build of their engine for people to try? If they are so certain of it, surely, [I]surely[/I] they could release a public build.

if anything, i'd say the guy is a bit [I]too[/I] excited about this.

In regards to the "Unlimited Detail" thing, they're hyping things up and not telling the full story. Someone did a white paper on how it works [url=http://www.merrick.com/site/static/mars/documentation/marcom/Euclideon/Merrick_Euclideon_White_Paper_Final.pdf]here[/url] and it's not really impressive at all. Basically, each "atom" is a point in space and your computer isn't looking through model data in order to display it. Your computer actually queries a server via http(s) with some camera info and the server just sends back visible atom locations in order to display it on your screen. While it's a neat thing, the way they presented it is severely misleading and why they get backlash. As for the solid scan technology, [url=http://www.geo3d.hr/download/Euclideon-solidscan-White-Paper.pdf]they're using existing laser scan technology and just making their own models, to which their test model was 50GB[/url] (not exactly a "small filesize" like they boast).

[QUOTE=MrGreed;51039961]Can anyone explain to me why this is supposedly impossible? I get that he's making some really big claims, and the whole "unlimited power" thing doesn't sound very believable, but I also haven't seen/heard any counterarguments other than "haha that's not real". Also, I'd like to know how they got funding for 40 holodeck rooms.[/QUOTE] they've been using wondrous jargon to mask the fact they're just using some overcomplicated voxel tech to 'calculate' heinously small LOD'd object instances to show off 'dirt atoms' when they get close to the ground also they seem to be convinced they invented the VR cube when it's a technology that's been around forever, and is so prohibitively fucking expensive you could never consider it a gaming medium. I should know, I had the weight of my old company investing in one without my blessing on my shoulder for over two years! All of these things sound like they're trying to sound steve jobs ~revolutionary~ to reel in investors who know less about the tech than they do

[QUOTE=benzer;51040290]pretty much looks like minecraft graphics when you get too close![/QUOTE] [img]http://i.imgur.com/4SU8gx0.png[/img] they're voxels, just like these are pixels

And they still can't render a proper HD video, nice

This is a horribly done video, if they want anyone to take them seriously they might try hiring someone other than a jumped up 15 year old to edit their promotional material. 14 minutes of repeating the same shit over and over, jump cuts everywhere that were often-times unrelated to what the announcer was talking about, reused footage, and worst of all the MUSIC. The music was entirely random, kept jumping in/out, fading in/out, changing volume, and changing entire tracks with no rhyme or reason. It felt like someone compiled a folder labelled 'EPIC MUSIC', stuck in 100 songs they downloaded from youtube, and just started randomly clicking on them throughout the video.

It seems blatantly obvious by now that they're trying to swindle investors, rather than intending anyone to actually use the technology.

[QUOTE=Glitchman;51039889]It's like the solar roadways of game engines[/QUOTE] Nah I'd say it's the Dahir Insaat of game engines. Solar Roadway guy just had no idea of the logistics involved. This I'm certain is a blatant Patent Troll operation in progress.

[QUOTE=Niteshifter;51041436]In regards to the "Unlimited Detail" thing, they're hyping things up and not telling the full story. Someone did a white paper on how it works [url=http://www.merrick.com/site/static/mars/documentation/marcom/Euclideon/Merrick_Euclideon_White_Paper_Final.pdf]here[/url] and it's not really impressive at all. Basically, each "atom" is a point in space and your computer isn't looking through model data in order to display it. Your computer actually queries a server via http(s) with some camera info and the server just sends back visible atom locations in order to display it on your screen. While it's a neat thing, the way they presented it is severely misleading and why they get backlash. As for the solid scan technology, [url=http://www.geo3d.hr/download/Euclideon-solidscan-White-Paper.pdf]they're using existing laser scan technology and just making their own models, to which their test model was 50GB[/url] (not exactly a "small filesize" like they boast).[/QUOTE] I'm leaning on to your post being just FUD. Where does it say that the technology doesn't load the models? Where does it say it's querying servers? As far as I can tell, the server query is _one_ of the several features, and only _one_ of the several different ways of fetching content, their quote being: [quote][...]or if it’s coming from a hard drive, flash drive, local server, or the internet.[/quote] What is also pretty important is that those white papers are about their Geoverse and SolidScan technologies, not so much about the rendering of the actual point cloud data points. They've already stated that the data in Geoverse is stored with an intelligent index, which, when precomputed, would indeed make it possible to look up anything in pretty much constant time, excluding read speeds of devices. However, these papers are about the benefits for the geospatial world, and not so much about entertainment or the tools for that, or even about how the technology really works.

yeah nah call me again when they can do a decent video that's not stuck with mid-2000's youtube editing and 15 fps

[QUOTE=mastersrp;51042804]I'm leaning on to your post being just FUD. Where does it say that the technology doesn't load the models? Where does it say it's querying servers? As far as I can tell, the server query is _one_ of the several features, and only _one_ of the several different ways of fetching content, their quote being: What is also pretty important is that those white papers are about their Geoverse and SolidScan technologies, not so much about the rendering of the actual point cloud data points. They've already stated that the data in Geoverse is stored with an intelligent index, which, when precomputed, would indeed make it possible to look up anything in pretty much constant time, excluding read speeds of devices. However, these papers are about the benefits for the geospatial world, and not so much about entertainment or the tools for that, or even about how the technology really works.[/QUOTE] Fair enough, that's my bad. I only skimmed parts of the paper assuming it was about a single topic rather than several separate pieces. My main concern with the technology is the company is fairly vague on any information about how things work. The two main issues with the UD technology is how are they loading a ridiculously large amount of points so fast and how are they managing the file size. From their website, they say this: [quote]Unlimited detail is a search algorithm that searches for one atom for every pixel on the screen. Because it functions in this way, the total volume of data is irrelevant and the algorithm’s speed depends on screen resolution instead of dataset size.[/quote] Which basically means they managed to develop an algorithm where search time is O(1) and they can have an infinite amount of entries. They boast too many advantages without any explanation, so it seems like a "too good to be true" offer and as such, I'm sceptical on it unless they release some kind of explanation on what they are doing rather than a marketing pitch that looks like it's promising too much. It also seems that no company has actually signed anything with them considering they open with "everybody hated us!" (although, their site does reference being a "perfect fit for the geospatial industry", so they might be attempting to go there with the project or found someone in that field).

[QUOTE=benzer;51040290]pretty much looks like minecraft graphics when you get too close![/QUOTE] It can be made in higher resolution; he chose voxels of that size to get a nice balance between performance and visual fidelity.