[Vadim M] Left 4 Dead Beta Analysis - General

[QUOTE=Tangerine;49028638]-snip-[/QUOTE]I completely understand why they changed it, especially since lighting is such a huge gameplay element in the series. The final version of No Mercy still looks awesome, but it's neat seeing how different it used to be. I think the gas station section of No Mercy was redesigned like 4 different times. :v:

[QUOTE=Theuaredead;49028450]also, I like how the "original" survivor releases say that they had to dig for the files to even restore them, when in reality, the SMDs just remain with the compile files of the Survivor files since Valve didn't delete the SMD folder on them since their animations were in the same folder. The only real digging would of been the diffuses to the Survivors, which only 1 texture remain for most of them (besides Francis) Which doesn't even matter since they edited the shit out of all of them. [editline]1st November 2015[/editline] it was a feature where you could give other survivors your weapons, ammo, and items. They even had animations, but were never really used, to my knowledge. [t]http://puu.sh/l5Tml/f8414af1c8.png[/t] [t]http://puu.sh/l5Tlz/af2cead8f2.png[/t][/QUOTE] These would've been so useful in L4D2, so many points at which someone's wanted to trade weapons with me but the only way to do so is to find another weapon on the ground. Being able to give medkits/defibs, even throwables would also be nice, currently you have to lead someone to or point out one of these items, slowing progress. However in the case of medkits, I think it does aid gameplay in that in healing someone else who for whatever reason doesn't have one, you're both immobilized which helps promote proper management of resources. I can see why they cut sharing ammo though, it doesn't really make much sense unless two or more people are using the same weapon and would again de-emphasise resource management. [editline]1st November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Marden;49028972]I found a blend of the two versions would be best. In beta they seem too well-equipped while in the final game all of them, especially Louis, are dressed pretty light.[/QUOTE] I dunno, with all the dead soldiers they'd have come across in those two weeks, they'd be tripping over all kinds of gear

[QUOTE=Lawligagger;49027879][IMG]http://puu.sh/l5La7/c595a528c5.png[/IMG] Oh god this version of Francis looks like Adam Sandler.[/QUOTE] Looks like Adam Sandler and Bill Murray had a kid.

[QUOTE=Tangerine;49028638]That picture is a definitive example of exactly why the game's art direction took a different turn. Valve's Randy Lundeen [URL="http://www.l4d.com/blog/post.php?id=1962"]made a[/URL] [URL="http://www.l4d.com/blog/post.php?id=2129"]couple posts[/URL] on Left 4 Dead's blog explaining how the artstyle displayed in that picture was not good for the game, nor for the players:[/QUOTE] valve can use all the buzzwords they want, trs deserved better. valve pretty much stole their game and took a shit over everything good about it for money, then lied to the community about the assets being deleted. that's a move right out of ea or activision's playbook. don't know why anyone pretends valve is any better than them, pulling shit like this on smaller developers. [QUOTE=Banhfunbags;49028247]I like the current survivors better.[/QUOTE] valve's survivors are shit. they completely ruined their realism and grit to make them more hollywood and appealing for those who don't give a fuck under the excuse of "readability". just think, if the originals had been kept we'd probably been spared all the dumbshit memes and gmod videos of them.

[QUOTE=9millmeeter;49029521]valve's survivors are shit. they completely ruined their realism and grit to make them more hollywood and appealing for those who don't give a fuck under the excuse of "readability". just think, if the originals had been kept we'd probably been spared all the dumbshit memes and gmod videos of them.[/QUOTE] I rated your post agree halfway through this, but the latter part of that just makes no sense.

[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;49029211]These would've been so useful in L4D2, so many points at which someone's wanted to trade weapons with me but the only way to do so is to find another weapon on the ground. Being able to give medkits/defibs, even throwables would also be nice, currently you have to lead someone to or point out one of these items, slowing progress. However in the case of medkits, I think it does aid gameplay in that in healing someone else who for whatever reason doesn't have one, you're both immobilized which helps promote proper management of resources. I can see why they cut sharing ammo though, it doesn't really make much sense unless two or more people are using the same weapon and would again de-emphasise resource management.[/QUOTE] I agree on the points of resource management; and as someone else in this thread pointed out, it's a redundant feature which, if it had been implemented in the final game, may not have been used much by players anyway - possibly why it was cut in the first place. After all, your pistol(s), Magnum, or melee weapon have unlimited ammo anyway, so why is it necessary to have ammo sharing? I imagine that feature is a leftover from a period during Left 4 Dead's development where pistols [I]didn't[/I] have unlimited ammo, [URL="http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/left4dead/images/c/c4/Pistolb_1.png/revision/latest?cb=20090905203745"]as seen in a fairly early build of the game.[/URL] On weapons sharing: while it indeed sounds great on paper to be able to switch weapons with another player, as opposed to needing to pick one up yourself, the developers may have found the implementation to be more troublesome. Most interactions between two players only require the input of one: picking up an incapacitated Survivor, opening a rescue closet, healing a Survivor, sharing pills/adrenaline, etc. In the case of weapons sharing, it would probably have worked in two possible ways: 1. Requiring the input of two players, where one offers their weapon and another presses a button to accept it - they then swap the primary weapons they were using 2. Requiring the input of only one player, who can automatically swap them with the desired teammate However, both of these are inherently flawed. The first implementation may have proven to be too complex for the game, if you will, as the aforementioned interactions between players all required only one player's input, as opposed to both of them. The second implementation, while about as simple as other interactions, would be far too easy to exploit, mainly because the receiver might not even know which weapon he's getting, and most importantly, how much ammo it has. A griefer could easily empty out all his ammo, share weapons, and then incapacitate the player who now has no ammo to fight back. Alternatively, a player trying to be helpful might give their weapon to a player who ran out of ammo - and while that's great for the latter player, now the helpful one has no ammo himself. Furthermore, as the 'give' key is by default the right mouse button, which is also used to shove, players fighting the horde in a tight formation may inadvertently swap their weapons and become disoriented - which also brings me to my next point. The point you brought up on throwables is good, because the way players have to go out of their way and be directed by another to pick up a throwable on the ground is, indeed, a waste of time. In fact, it's one of my major gripes with the game (in Left 4 Dead 2, my biggest gripe is the Jockey - but that's an entirely different point), especially when the player I'm talking to is inept at listening to directions. However, this is connected to the point I made before, where sharing items would have adverse effects. When cornered by the horde, a player wielding a pipe bomb or Molotov might shove them back for breathing room before tossing it out - and they know in their minds exactly where they're tossing it to. But in the event that another player, who in this case doesn't have a throwable, accidentally walks through their line of sight, the responsibility of getting the horde off of them is suddenly and inadvertently dropped into their hands. As they may have been focusing on something else, they might not realize that they were given the throwable by accident if there's a lack of communication between them, and don't think to give it back - so they might try to toss it out themselves, but at that point it could be too late, and the two are overwhelmed. Of course, this could be alleviated through making the 'give' key for throwables separate, but then that just gives the players another button to remember. Left 4 Dead is an FPS, not an RPG. [QUOTE=9millmeeter;49029521]valve can use all the buzzwords they want,[/QUOTE] How are these buzzwords? Lundeen explains pretty clearly that their playtesters were benefiting from local lighting. [QUOTE]valve pretty much stole their game and took a shit over everything good about it[/QUOTE] Saying these features were "good" can be debated, but that's more a matter of opinion. [QUOTE]then lied to the community about the assets being deleted[/QUOTE] Source? [QUOTE]valve is any better than them, pulling shit like this on smaller developers.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't call Turtle Rock a "smaller developer", even before their acquisition. They had already developed Counter-Strike: Source prior to this, and in fact all of their games created during that period were Valve titles. [QUOTE]they completely ruined their realism and grit to make them more hollywood and appealing for those who don't give a fuck under the excuse of "readability"[/QUOTE] Maybe I just don't give a fuck, but the fact that the survivors stand out of the environment benefits even me, and I have over 750 concurrent hours logged into the series. [QUOTE]just think, if the originals had been kept we'd probably been spared all the dumbshit memes and gmod videos of them.[/QUOTE] I don't understand this point at all

[QUOTE=9millmeeter;49029521]then lied to the community about the assets being deleted.[/QUOTE] but uh... they did delete most of the assets from the pre-release build after the redesign [editline]1st November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Tangerine;49029621]Maybe I just don't give a fuck, but the fact that the survivors stand out of the environment benefits even me, and I have over 750 concurrent hours logged into the series.[/QUOTE] I haven't had an issue with mistaking the Original Survivors with the infected.

[QUOTE=Keychain;49029536]I rated your post agree halfway through this, but the latter part of that just makes no sense.[/QUOTE] what i'm saying is that the trs survivors don't appeal to the kiddies and they probably would have stayed clear of them and spared us the "LOL PEELZ HEER" crap. it would have helped too if valve didn't think that shit was hilarious and ran with it. just look what they turned l4d2 into compared to the first game. whatever its a petty complaint anyway compared to the evil shit valve pulled on trs here. [QUOTE=Tangerine;49029621] How are these buzzwords? Lundeen explains pretty clearly that their playtesters were benefiting from local lighting. [/QUOTE] valve's playtesters are terrible at actually playing games. there's bits in the commentary of episode 2 how one kept running in a loop in the antlion caves for 30 minutes before realizing it, or how they cut the entire finale down because playtesters thought there was too much fighting going on. [QUOTE=Tangerine;49029621] Source? [/QUOTE] valve claimed they lost all the original files for the survivors, then said they had to dig into archives just to find bits and pieces of the original survivor models. both are lies. [QUOTE=Theuaredead;49028450]also, [B]I like how the "original" survivor releases say that they had to dig for the files to even restore them, when in reality, the SMDs just remain with the compile files of the Survivor files since Valve didn't delete the SMD folder on them since their animations were in the same folder.[/B] The only real digging would of been the diffuses to the Survivors, which only 1 texture remain for most of them (besides Francis) Which doesn't even matter since they edited the shit out of all of them. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Tangerine;49029621] Maybe I just don't give a fuck, but the fact that the survivors stand out of the environment benefits even me, and I have over 750 concurrent hours logged into the series. [/QUOTE] the trs survivors not only look better and more realistic, but their design meant players would actually have to think before they just went shooting at whatever was in front of them. it would have made the game more tactical and less casualized.

[QUOTE=Lawligagger;49027879][IMG]http://puu.sh/l5La7/c595a528c5.png[/IMG] Oh god this version of Francis looks like Adam Sandler.[/QUOTE] [img]https://i.gyazo.com/2f88e53a12ef69c5bf8ec87d74bcc842.png[/img] Bill Murray maybe.

[QUOTE=Tangerine;49029621]I wouldn't call Turtle Rock a "smaller developer", even before their acquisition. They had already developed Counter-Strike: Source prior to this, and in fact all of their games created during that period were Valve titles. [/QUOTE] [del]Yeah, Valve even acquired Turtle Rock in 08' and it was named "Valve South" during that time.[/del] - Never mind, apparently the video covered that. Later they separated and TRS is on it's own now, making Evolve. [editline]1st November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=9millmeeter;49029814]what i'm saying is that the trs survivors don't appeal to the kiddies and they probably would have stayed clear of them and spared us the "LOL PEELZ HEER" crap. it would have helped too if valve didn't think that shit was hilarious and ran with it. just look what they turned l4d2 into compared to the first game. [/QUOTE] How is a meme relevant to the gameplay of L4D? Even the logic is flawed, we know Valve aren't a fan of overused jokes, look how much they despise "The cake is a lie!" [quote] whatever its a petty complaint anyway compared to the evil shit valve pulled on trs here. [/quote] But Valve and TRS had a fantastic working relationship when they were part of the same working group. [quote] valve's playtesters are terrible at actually playing games. there's bits in the commentary of episode 2 how one kept running in a loop in the antlion caves for 30 minutes before realizing it, or how they cut the entire finale down because playtesters thought there was too much fighting going on. [/quote] You never notice how bad [I]you are[/I] at games until you play one that didn't have playtesters. [quote] Valve claimed they lost all the original files for the survivors, then said they had to dig into archives just to find bits and pieces of the original survivor models. both are lies. [/quote] Ever worked with a SCM/VC on a large team with quick integration like Valve? You'd have to dig through hundreds of commits to find specific files that someone else had deleted. Most developers CBA to do that and would just as well say it was deleted (Because it sort of was). [quote] the trs survivors not only look better and more realistic, but their design meant players would actually have to think before they just went shooting at whatever was in front of them. it would have made the game more tactical and less casualized.[/QUOTE] L4D is fun [I]because[/I] it's a quick zombie arcadey game, if you want realism play a game more suited to it like NMRiH or DayZ.

[QUOTE=9millmeeter;49029814]valve's playtesters are terrible at actually playing games. there's bits in the commentary of episode 2 how one kept running in a loop in the antlion caves for 30 minutes before realizing it, or how they cut the entire finale down because playtesters thought there was too much fighting going on. [/QUOTE] You're delusional if you think the antlion caves would be better off by letting you get stuck in a loop. Between the antlion guardian stampeding right on your heels, and the lack of identifiable landmarks, it wouldn't surprise me if people would have gotten stuck in there for even longer, had they actually kept the loop. The level would have been as notorious as GTA:SA's train chase mission. [QUOTE=9millmeeter;49029814] the trs survivors not only look better and more realistic, but their design meant players would actually have to think before they just went shooting at whatever was in front of them. it would have made the game more tactical and less casualized.[/QUOTE] I think you need to play vermintide to prove just how wrong this statement is. For the first few hours of the game, you constantly keep mistakenly swinging at the dwarf and waywatcher because they are so visually similar to the rats. The dwarf is just as tall as the rats, and the waywatcher has a fur draped over her shoulders. When you are trying to swing your swords all over the place to keep the rats away, you don't have time to think about what you're hitting. If you see something short, you swing. If you see something with fur, you swing. This problem is specifically why valve invests so much design time into readability and silhouettes, to the point that even the color palette the characters use are unique and different from everything else.

Wasn't the game supposed to have a feature where when you died you respawned into Versus? I think I heard about that on X-Play or something.

L4D Beta always makes me sad. Those animations, that atmosphere...

[QUOTE=Keychain;49027962]That's a really dumb reason though. Why bother making such atmospheric, run-down levels if you're not gonna go all the way?[/QUOTE] It makes no sense too because the survivors look fresh. But everything else is run down.