[QUOTE=blah2;35767114]Murderers should not be rehabilitated. There's nothing fair in rehabilitating a killer who consciously did it.
Yes, some people with mental problems aren't aware they did something wrong, and sadly that is a problem of nature. Let's say rehab could be good for them, as a person, but I wouldn't let them again in society, that shit is dangerous.
(There is an exception of self defense, or murder by mistake, and in those cases rehab is the best idea.)[/QUOTE]
Then you clearly do not understand the effect rehab has on recidivism.
You can't tell us what is right for the world when you can't bother to look up the facts of the matter.
Pretty sure if people dont understand you shouldnt kill your mom for not giving you vodka money, they are beyond rehabilitation. No im not putting that sick fuck in a nicer living area then somebody who wakes up every morning, doesnt kill his mother and works his ass off to live in a shit hole. Norway can be cool as much as they want, its like rewarding murderers for killing.
Rapists too, if you cant get a girl to fuck you so you force it on her you should get put in a shit hole, because you cant rehabilitate a rapist. There is no excuse for Rape.
[QUOTE=blah2;35767114]Murderers should not be rehabilitated. There's nothing fair in rehabilitating a killer who consciously did it.
Yes, some people with mental problems aren't aware they did something wrong, and sadly that is a problem of nature. Let's say rehab could be good for them, as a person, but I wouldn't let them again in society, that shit is dangerous.
(There is an exception of self defense, or murder by mistake, and in those cases rehab is the best idea.)[/QUOTE]
Actually the people who consciously kill are easier to rehabilitate than the ones who have no control over their actions. A sociopath or psychopath cannot currently be cured of their illness.
There are different reasons to kill, most of them stemming from poverty, lack of education, and lack of confidence in the individual. Those types of killers are able to be helped.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;35766621]Having jogging trails, a cell that looks like an apartment(versus a cage like most other prisons), and great recreational activities are definitely a plus.
I mean, it's still prison, but look at this shit:
[img]http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2010/prison_norway/prison3.jpg[/img]
Living areas, shared kitchens, a nice TV.
[img]http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2010/prison_norway/prison7.jpg[/img]
A fucking climbing wall and basketball court.
[img]http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2010/prison_norway/prison14.jpg[/img]
A recording studio.
That's actually pretty ritzy.
[editline]30th April 2012[/editline]
You get job training and mentoring, you get to take cooking classes, and all this other shit. It's more like a school than a prison, and I think that reflects on the Norwegian idea of criminality and incarceration. You aren't a bad person, you are a person in need of help.[/QUOTE]
Brb, gonna go commit a crime in Norway.
[QUOTE=OreoExtremist;35767201]Pretty sure if people dont understand you shouldnt kill your mom for not giving you vodka money, they are beyond rehabilitation. No im not putting that sick fuck in a nicer living area then somebody who wakes up every morning, doesnt kill his mother and works his ass off to live in a shit hole. Norway can be cool as much as they want, its like rewarding murderers for killing.
Rapists too, if you cant get a girl to fuck you so you force it on her you should get put in a shit hole, because you cant rehabilitate a rapist. There is no excuse for Rape.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, taking away someone's freedom completely is TOTALLY a reward.
[editline]30th April 2012[/editline]
What stupid fucking world do you live in?
when you treat people like criminals and psychopaths, why would they act any other way? we know people adopt the roles given to them.
[QUOTE=djjkxbox360;35763689]Nor does treating them nicely[/QUOTE]
Except it does and all statistics show it.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35767297]Yeah, taking away someone's freedom completely is TOTALLY a reward.
[editline]30th April 2012[/editline]
What stupid fucking world do you live in?[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter if it's a reward or not. If you can't rehabilitate someone, then the goal is to separate them from society so they can't cause any more harm. Vindictively punishing the criminals doesn't help anything except a sick, demented view of justice.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35767297]Yeah, taking away someone's freedom completely is TOTALLY a reward.
[editline]30th April 2012[/editline]
What stupid fucking world do you live in?[/QUOTE]
I live in the real world. The world where institutionalized people exist. The world where people would GIVE UP THEIR FREEDOM to have shit handed to them. Open your eyes and realize that not everyone values freedom like you do.
Actually not the real world my bad.
oh watch out lads he lives in the real world.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35767378]oh watch out lads he lives in the real world.[/QUOTE]
Sorry let me just, rephrase for you
[QUOTE=OreoExtremist;35767371]I live in the real world. The world where institutionalized people exist. The world where people would GIVE UP THEIR FREEDOM to have shit handed to them. Open your eyes and realize that not everyone values freedom like you do.
Actually not the real world my bad.[/QUOTE]
So that's an excuse to hurt people?
[QUOTE=blah2;35766818]Crime is stopped when the prisons get so hard to live in[/QUOTE]
so if I locked you in a cold room where you toiled all day and got shouted at by guards all night, your first reaction would be to say "I deserve this"?
maybe some people would, but if anyone can actually say that and believe what they did was wrong there's no need for them to be in jail in the first place because they know the difference between right and wrong
[QUOTE=OreoExtremist;35767371]I live in the real world. The world where institutionalized people exist. The world where people would GIVE UP THEIR FREEDOM to have shit handed to them. Open your eyes and realize that not everyone values freedom like you do.
Actually not the real world my bad.[/QUOTE]
You don't know what institutionalised means.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35767444]You don't know what institutionalised means.[/QUOTE]
On a side note: I don't even know if a prisoner is capable of being institutionalized in Norwegian prison. At least I wouldn't think it to be common. Institutionalization means that you are so used to a life of confinement and the routines of prison that you are unable to effectively live on the outside. However, Norwegian prison basically puts all the focus on effectively living on the outside, so when prisoners leave they have the tools they need to succeed.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35766375]Oh totally, except they're literally a room and you give up your freedom
other than that, it's perfect.
PS, you're ignorant as fuck[/QUOTE]
No, you just don't see my point.
If you live on the street and barely get your daily meal, then this:
[img]http://theworldsbestever.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/halden-prison-norway-.jpg[/img]
Looks like a fucking palace.
[QUOTE=Cone;35767431]so if I locked you in a cold room where you toiled all day and got shouted at by guards all night, your first reaction would be to say "I deserve this"?
maybe some people would, but if anyone can actually say that and believe what they did was wrong there's no need for them to be in jail in the first place because they know the difference between right and wrong[/QUOTE]
Actions have consequenses, that's what they need to understand. It doesn't matter if they know that it was wrong to rape and kill that infant and they regret it deeply, they still did it. They don't need a pat on the back and someone reassuring them that everything will be ok.
[QUOTE=Hullu V3;35767867]No, you just don't see my point.
If you live on the street and barely get your daily meal, then this:
[img]http://theworldsbestever.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/halden-prison-norway-.jpg[/img]
Looks like a fucking palace.[/QUOTE]
So unless you're homeless or in a cell worse than the street and starved, prison can't be proper? Are you out of your fucking mind?
Can I ask you a question, is this concept that prisoners don't deserve to be treated as human due to you having some sort of morality thing? Because you can't in the same sentence say to treat people like their inhuman because it's moral, that's just dumb.
And wow, you have a bed, a chair, a window and a small desk. It's also clean looking - I'm sorry, but why is that wrong?
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35767951]So unless you're homeless or in a cell worse than the street and starved, prison can't be proper? Are you out of your fucking mind?
Can I ask you a question, is this concept that prisoners don't deserve to be treated as human due to you having some sort of morality thing? Because you can't in the same sentence say to treat people like their inhuman because it's moral, that's just dumb.
And wow, you have a bed, a chair, a window and a small desk. It's also clean looking - I'm sorry, but why is that wrong?[/QUOTE]
To some people going to a prison like that is a huge improvement to their current living conditions.
And as far as my morals go, they're my morals and my opinions. No need to get raging erections over them.
[QUOTE=Hullu V3;35767920]Actions have consequenses, that's what they need to understand. It doesn't matter if they know that it was wrong to rape and kill that infant and they regret it deeply, they still did it. They don't need a pat on the back and someone reassuring them that everything will be ok.[/QUOTE]
Cutting them off from the world and incarcerating them is a consequence.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35767993]Cutting them off from the world and incarcerating them is a consequence.[/QUOTE]
I know, but I was implying to the "if they know what's right and wrong, they don't need to be in jail at all"
I might have understood it wrong, but just saying.
[QUOTE=Hullu V3;35767984]To some people going to a prison like that is a huge improvement to their current living conditions.[/quote]
You have to be living in the worse possible state in order to
And if you're in that state, a bad prison would be a step up.
Even then - who gives an absolute shit? Wow, a homeless guy steals some guys wallet and gets caught so he can have a quick meal and a bed to sleep in - Big fucking whoop.
That's like saying Socialised healthcare is wrong because someone MAY abuse it.
[quote]And as far as my morals go, they're my morals and my opinions. No need to get raging erections over them.[/QUOTE]
"raging erections" What? The fuck are you on about?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;35767244]Actually the people who consciously kill are easier to rehabilitate than the ones who have no control over their actions. A sociopath or psychopath cannot currently be cured of their illness.
There are different reasons to kill, most of them stemming from poverty, lack of education, and lack of confidence in the individual. Those types of killers are able to be helped.[/QUOTE]
The victim is already dead so I see no justice in that. They should be locked up for life. :)
[editline]30th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Marbalo;35767882]Yeah, just like having the death penalty in effect reduces crime rates right?
Oh wait, no it fucking doesn't.
[URL]http://deathpenaltycurriculum.org/student/c/about/arguments/argument1b.htm[/URL]
[URL]http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence[/URL]
[URL]http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=82[/URL]
I could go on, the point is that it has nothing to do with how bad the prisons are or how severe the punishment is, people are going to commit crime because of other societal motivates. Its a completely different equation that has nothing to do with the prison system.[/QUOTE]
I agree that you have to motivate the population so that they don't feel the need to kill. But killers should have life sentences and never get out. Rehab doesn't do justice to the victim, and death penalty is not as severe as living your life in prison.
[QUOTE=blah2;35768124]The victim is already dead so I see no justice in that. They should be locked up for life. :)
[editline]30th April 2012[/editline]
I agree that you have to motivate the population so that they don't feel the need to kill. But killers should have life sentences and never get out. Rehab doesn't do justice to the victim, and death penalty is not as severe as living your life in prison.[/QUOTE]
Life isn't as black and white as you make it out to be. It isn't "oh you kill, you can NEVER be rehabilitated"
[QUOTE=Hullu V3;35767984]To some people going to a prison like that is a huge improvement to their current living conditions.
And as far as my morals go, they're my morals and my opinions. No need to get raging erections over them.[/QUOTE]
Why should we be content when you have such a sociopathic morality. You want to hurt other people for the sake of hurting them, not to help society. You are no better than the people that are locked up.
[QUOTE=blah2;35768124]The victim is already dead so I see no justice in that. They should be locked up for life. :)[/quote]
Rehabilitation might not only save money that would be wasted keeping someone in prison for life, it might also prevent murders in the future. You know that most prisons aren't very safe right? They have incredibly high murder and rape rates.
[quote]I agree that you have to motivate the population so that they don't feel the need to kill. But killers should have life sentences and never get out. Rehab doesn't do justice to the victim, and death penalty is not as severe as living your life in prison.[/QUOTE]
I don't think the victim really cares anymore, since they are dead. It doesn't matter if it fits their(or your) view of justice. You have to go with what is effective. If we had an effective way of rehabilitating serial killers, why wouldn't we do it? We could give a human being their life back, which is the closest you will get to undoing the murder.
Also remember no matter what the deterrent, a lot of people do fucked up shit in certain frames of time, either on a psychological impulse or the effect of something else such as alcohol or drugs. At that point the thought that you'd end up bent over and escorted blindfolded, the only light you see being artificial with a strong ass dog following you is the last thing to cross your mind.
There is never a way to fully justify the punishment style, a good prison could rehabilitate, but also may be viewed as a joke. However I'm pretty sure most prisons in Norway are mostly focused on smaller crimes e.g. drugs, theft. Long term prisons are not so "luxury" but still not as harsh as most prisons.
So, I know that the Norway system is one of the best and most effective, but how would we be able to change the prison system in the US?
[QUOTE=Hullu V3;35767984]To some people going to a prison like that is a huge improvement to their current living conditions.
And as far as my morals go, they're my morals and my opinions. No need to get raging erections over them.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you understand, you're just comparing the Norwegian prisons to life on the streets, the point of someone being sent there to begin with is not to give them a cushy nights sleep but to rehabilitate. Discipline, while giving them qualifications, skills essential so they can try and find work once they're out, they leave the prison with more going for them than what they had when first going in, that way they won't end up back to square one the moment they're released
[QUOTE=person11;35775981]So, I know that the Norway system is one of the best and most effective, but how would we be able to change the prison system in the US?[/QUOTE]
Well norway also has population on their side. The population there is small enough to afford such a thing, and the taxes are high enough too.
Also, I'm pretty sure most of their inmates aren't there for drug related charges, like in the US. They probably use their prisions for REAL crimes.
And I doubt a homeless guy on the street committing a pretty crime would get put in the prision system at Norway, they probably put legitimate problem people there
[QUOTE=Zeraxify;35763904]who falls for kangaroo meat, honestly[/QUOTE]
My dad did
[editline]1st May 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;35766841]maybe in some bizarro world.[/QUOTE]
Crime is stopped only when (maybe) every crime is punishable by death. Is that fair, even for an insane and fucked up dictator? Hell no
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.