Otherkin - Heart of a Snowflake - General

[QUOTE=Laferio;45443826]so this otherkin shit is real[/QUOTE] deviant art irl I can't believe it materialized into reality... this is why transgender people aren't taken seriously.

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;45477428]deviant art irl I can't believe it materialized into reality... this is why transgender people aren't taken seriously.[/QUOTE] Really don't see how this affects the image of transgenders, most people don't seem to know about otherkin.

[QUOTE=judgeofdeath;45478998]Really don't see how this affects the image of transgenders, most people don't seem to know about otherkin.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately, it does. Vocal bigots will lump "otherkin" with Gender Identity minorities, and will push for that to be the main view of trans people. It is why transgender people aren't taken seriously, it is why people use the "train argument" and will be agreed with. Otherkin are the poison of the LGBT movement and should be treated as nothing more than attention whores.

To reiterate Zilla's point, these people are trivializing the issues that LGBT people genuinely suffer through in order to gain attention and be regarded as often put, a 'special snowflake'. This then generally causes people to think that the issues of LGBT people, particularly trans, are non-existent and are just another form of attention seeking - when actually they're not. This is why I will always be adamantly against the idea of bronies, furries, otherkin etc 'coming out' and acting oppressed.

[QUOTE=judgeofdeath;45478998]Really don't see how this affects the image of transgenders, most people don't seem to know about otherkin.[/QUOTE] It does because uninformed people can easily think they're the same thing, and bigots actively try to make it look like they're the same thing to discredit us.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;45480388]It does because uninformed people can easily think they're the same thing, and bigots actively try to make it look like they're the same thing to discredit us.[/QUOTE] I don't think that TG people aren't real, nor do I think that these people aren't real... watch the video, they are both real. I just think that we may assume that both reflect something innate about a person's identity, and aren't born from existing in a social fabric which disciplines and rewards certain behaviors, and conditions some desires in paradoxical ways.... when in reality the truth is that it is the latter, not the former. [editline]24th July 2014[/editline] Love that we are down to discriminate and make fun of these people though, and the move by TG people to not express solidarity with them, but place them in the same identity category of 'misinformed' that was and continues to be subscribed to them. Wonder what that says about ourselves and the world we live in.

I never brought up the people who think transgenders don't exist. I was just pointing out that there are people who think that transgenders are equivalent to otherkin. It doesn't exactly help that otherkin pretty much act like a satirization of transgenders. I'm not entirely sure what the rest of your post even said.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;45481035]I never brought up the people who think transgenders don't exist. I was just pointing out that there are people who think that transgenders are equivalent to otherkin. It doesn't exactly help that otherkin pretty much act like a satirization of transgenders. I'm not entirely sure what the rest of your post even said.[/QUOTE] I basically said that both otherkin and transgender people are real, and that both are responses to different trials and tribulations we face in our lives and are identities taken on as survival strategies.

As self proclaimed internet veteran, I can say that there's nothing that can shock me....weird shit, porn, gore , you name it. Or so I thought..... The idea that the internet as simple as it may be, can turn a bit of a socially inept person completely fukkin nuts in the right circumstances is fucking terrifying

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481092]I basically said that both otherkin and transgender people are real, and that both are responses to different trials and tribulations we face in our lives and are identities taken on as survival strategies.[/QUOTE] Otherkin is not real. You do not face body dysmorphia because you've convinced yourself in to believing that you have the spirit of a wolf. If it were not for the internet the vast majority of these people wouldn't exist. The people who genuinely do believe that they are wolves genuinely need psychological help.

[QUOTE=Noss;45481153]Otherkin is not real. You do not face body dysmorphia because you've convinced yourself in to believing that you have the spirit of a wolf. If it were not for the internet the vast majority of these people wouldn't exist. The people who genuinely do believe that they are wolves genuinely need psychological help.[/QUOTE] If it wasn't for a society which has scrict standards of what constitutes 'acceptable' behavior for both men and women and thereby creates an impasse where individuals feel 'alien' to their body and gender scripts, then transgender wouldn't be an identity.

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481371]If it wasn't for a society which has scrict standards of what constitutes 'acceptable' behavior for both men and women and thereby creates an impasse where individuals feel 'alien' to their body and gender scripts, then transgender wouldn't be an identity.[/QUOTE] How is that related in any way to what I was saying?

Basically some people have disorders and are clinically crazy

[QUOTE=Noss;45481402]How is that related in any way to what I was saying?[/QUOTE] .... both of them emerge from social factors.... ala 'Otherkin' is just as 'not real' as being 'Transgender'

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481467].... both of them emerge from social factors.... ala 'Otherkin' is just as 'not real' as being 'Transgender'[/QUOTE] The two aren't even remotely comparable, go back to Tumblr.

[QUOTE=Noss;45481497]The two aren't even remotely comparable, go back to Tumblr.[/QUOTE] Sick arg brah

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481550]Sick arg brah[/QUOTE] Well it's a bit hard to have a rational debate with somebody who believes that there are fucking wolf people.

[QUOTE=Noss;45481570]Well it's a bit hard to have a rational debate with somebody who believes that there are fucking wolf people.[/QUOTE] I believe that they believe they are wolf people. How is that any different from someone who knows deep down inside that they are actually a woman, or a man?

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481371]If it wasn't for a society which has scrict standards of what constitutes 'acceptable' behavior for both men and women and thereby creates an impasse where individuals feel 'alien' to their body and gender scripts, then transgender wouldn't be an identity.[/QUOTE] Welcome to Facepunch, where every argument is made up and the [URL="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U9BuPvlLV8E"]neuroscience[/URL] doesn't matter.

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481615]I believe that they believe they are wolf people. How is that any different from someone who knows deep down inside that they are actually a woman, or a man?[/QUOTE] people don't wake up one day and decide that they want to become a transexual otherkin read about it on the internet and go 'hey i'm going to dress up like a wolf now'

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481615]I believe that they believe they are wolf people. How is that any different from someone who knows deep down inside that they are actually a woman, or a man?[/QUOTE] You can't turn into a dog.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;45481616]Welcome to Facepunch, where every argument is made up and the [URL="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U9BuPvlLV8E"]neuroscience[/URL] doesn't matter.[/QUOTE] Hey! So what is this article even saying (I talked about it before) 1.) What does that neuro-mapping mean for gender scripts? All this says is that there is a connection with self perception tied to the brain, there is no causal linkage i.e: was the white matter there AFTERthey felt like a female or was the white matter the CAUSE of the inner desire? 2.) If you read the actual scientific journal that newspiece is clipping it labels being transsexual as a .. wait for it... MENTAL DISORDER. Don't believe me? Its literally the first line. 3.) This also isn't even close to an accepted 'pin point' for the neurlogical causes of transexualism, nice try though! An study scientific conclusions does not make. [QUOTE=circuitbawx;45481672]You can't turn into a dog.[/QUOTE] So is the arg feasibility? Bc technically the operation to becoming a man/woman isn't successful either i.e: they will never be able to have a kids? Also what does this mean retroactively? Prior to the 20th century transgender wasnt an identity but now it is?

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481805]Hey! So what is this article even saying (I talked about it before) 1.) What does that neuro-mapping mean for gender scripts? All this says is that there is a connection with self perception tied to the brain, there is no causal linkage i.e: was the white matter there AFTERthey felt like a female or was the white matter the CAUSE of the inner desire? 2.) If you read the actual scientific journal that newspiece is clipping it labels being transsexual as a .. wait for it... MENTAL DISORDER. Don't believe me? Its literally the first line. 3.) This also isn't even close to an accepted 'pin point' for the neurlogical causes of transexualism, nice try though! An study scientific conclusions does not make. So is the arg feasibility? Bc technically the operation to becoming a man/woman isn't successful either i.e: they will never be able to have a kids? Also what does this mean retroactively? Prior to the 20th century transgender wasnt an identity but now it is?[/QUOTE] Just answering your question. Continue

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481805]Hey! So what is this article even saying (I talked about it before) 1.) What does that neuro-mapping mean for gender scripts? All this says is that there is a connection with self perception tied to the brain, there is no causal linkage i.e: was the white matter there AFTERthey felt like a female or was the white matter the CAUSE of the inner desire? 2.) If you read the actual scientific journal that newspiece is clipping it labels being transsexual as a .. wait for it... MENTAL DISORDER. Don't believe me? Its literally the first line. 3.) This also isn't even close to an accepted 'pin point' for the neurlogical causes of transexualism, nice try though! An study scientific conclusions does not make. So is the arg feasibility? Bc technically the operation to becoming a man/woman isn't successful either i.e: they will never be able to have a kids? Also what does this mean retroactively? Prior to the 20th century transgender wasnt an identity but now it is?[/QUOTE] The point is that these people have minds which actually correspond to that of their perceived genders. Otherkin do not have minds which correspond to that of their perceived species. The point is not the cause, it's the result; these people are, mentally, the genders they identify as. Nobody who identifies as non-human has the actual brain structure of a non-human. That's why otherkin is nonsense, while transgenderism is based in reality.

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481805]Hey! So what is this article even saying (I talked about it before) 1.) What does that neuro-mapping mean for gender scripts? All this says is that there is a connection with self perception tied to the brain, there is no causal linkage i.e: was the white matter there AFTERthey felt like a female or was the white matter the CAUSE of the inner desire? 2.) If you read the actual scientific journal that newspiece is clipping it labels being transsexual as a .. wait for it... MENTAL DISORDER. Don't believe me? Its literally the first line. 3.) This also isn't even close to an accepted 'pin point' for the neurlogical causes of transexualism, nice try though! An study scientific conclusions does not make. So is the arg feasibility? Bc technically the operation to becoming a man/woman isn't successful either i.e: they will never be able to have a kids? Also what does this mean retroactively? Prior to the 20th century transgender wasnt an identity but now it is?[/QUOTE] Gender identity is very much biological. Holy shit you have hormones that control the characteristics of your gender. You don't have hormones that determine how much of a fucking dog you are. Fed up of this bullshit pseudo-science being used to justify this sick fucking excuse for a fandom. It is honestly pathetic that people like you actually give weight to these people's beliefs. It's like arguing with a fucking brick wall.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;45481845]The point is that these people have minds which actually correspond to that of their perceived genders. Otherkin do not have minds which correspond to that of their perceived species. The point is not the cause, it's the result; these people are, mentally, the genders they identify as. Nobody who identifies as non-human has the actual brain structure of a non-human. That's why otherkin is nonsense, while transgenderism is based in reality.[/QUOTE] if you READ the article that you linked you'd notice it said the white matter in the regions was half-way that of respective male/females hence the scientist to remark "Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female" Heres the ACTUAL scientific article [url]http://portal.uned.es/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/UNED_MAIN/LAUNIVERSIDAD/UBICACIONES/02/DOCENTE/ANTONIO_GUILLAMON_FERNANDEZ/RAMETTI%20ET%20AL%202011.PDF[/url] Once again, this article also groups TG not as identity but as a gender identity disorder (aka: it pathologizes it) which means from the eyes of the person you are quoting, its just as much of a disorder as these otherkins. Also look at the graph on page 5 [QUOTE=circuitbawx;45481812]Just answering your question. Continue[/QUOTE] Yeah and I answered your answer? I dont think feasibility is a good marker to seperate TS from Otherkin. [QUOTE=Noss;45481854]Gender identity is very much biological. Holy shit you have hormones that control the characteristics of your gender. You don't have hormones that determine how much of a fucking dog you are. Fed up of this bullshit pseudo-science being used to justify this sick fucking excuse for a fandom. It is honestly pathetic that people like you actually give weight to these people's beliefs. It's like arguing with a fucking brick wall.[/QUOTE] Physical sexual traits are determined by hormosones and chromosones, you are wack if you think gender identity is determined by that.

There isn't any point arguing with this guy, he'll just massively misappropriate and take out of context research and medical definitions and try to string them together in to an incohesive argument. I just pray one day that these otherkin fucktards will snap out of it and realise how fucking stupid this whole phenomenon is. Kind of a coincidence how everybody who thinks that they are 'otherkin' identifies as a wolf or some other kind of powerful animal that the internet has romanticised.

[QUOTE=Flameon;45481615]I believe that they believe they are wolf people. How is that any different from someone who knows deep down inside that they are actually a woman, or a man?[/QUOTE] them believing they are literally wolf people itself doesn't mean anyone should respect that belief just because it is a dearly held belief. [editline]23rd July 2014[/editline] Your brain cannot biologically show up more like a wolfs than a human, or a vegetable, or anything else but another humans brain. A person who thought they were a wolf 2000 years ago was probably eaten by actual wolves. Does that biological fact mean nothing?

Thank you for this video... I will use it (and other information) from this thread to better myself when I come in contact with these people. How should I woof at them?

[QUOTE=Flameon;45482021]if you READ the article that you linked you'd notice it said the white matter in the regions was half-way that of respective male/females hence the scientist to remark "Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female" Heres the ACTUAL scientific article [url]http://portal.uned.es/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/UNED_MAIN/LAUNIVERSIDAD/UBICACIONES/02/DOCENTE/ANTONIO_GUILLAMON_FERNANDEZ/RAMETTI%20ET%20AL%202011.PDF[/url] [/QUOTE] To say that they are, mentally, totally their perceived gender was a rash statement that did not take into consideration all the evidence, but there was a definite tendency for their brains to resembles those of the gender they identified with more than those they were assigned at birth. There is no tendency of otherkin's brains to resemble that of the species they identify with more than a human brain, as that would make them mentally stunted and incapable of functioning in society. They would certainly be incapable of forming an online community. [QUOTE]Physical sexual traits are determined by hormosones and chromosones, you are wack if you think gender identity is determined by that.[/QUOTE] Your brain is formed from instructions defined by your chromosomes, and your mind can be substantially altered by hormones, especially in-utero, so I don't know what you mean by that. There are plenty of observed genetic anomalies that result in sexually dimorphic traits mixing, so it's hardly an unreasonable concept that the same business could occur in the brain. [QUOTE=Flameon]Once again, this article also groups TG not as identity but as a gender identity disorder (aka: it pathologizes it) which means from the eyes of the person you are quoting, its just as much of a disorder as these otherkins.[/QUOTE] The definition of a mental disorder has always been rather arbitrary, so it might be accurate to define transgenderism as one, but that fundamentally is nothing but nomenclature. We give respect to transgender people because they actually are, mentally, more their perceived gender than their assigned one. We do not give respect to Otherkin because their claims of being mentally another creature are abjectly and demonstrably false.