Otherkin - Heart of a Snowflake - General

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;45482341] Your brain is formed from instructions defined by your chromosomes, and your mind can be substantially altered by hormones, especially in-utero, so I don't know what you mean by that. There are plenty of observed genetic anomalies that result in sexually dimorphic traits mixing, so it's hardly an unreasonable concept that the same business could occur in the brain. The definition of a mental disorder has always been rather arbitrary, so it might be accurate to define transgenderism as one, but that fundamentally is nothing but nomenclature. We give respect to transgender people because they actually are, mentally, more their perceived gender than their assigned one. We do not give respect to Otherkin because their claims of being mentally another creature are abjectly and demonstrably false.[/QUOTE] 1.) Sexual Dymorphism in human beings is mainly reproductive organs, secondary sex characteristics, and basic things like aggression. It does not include gender as the social construct we think of it today. I dare you to find a single reputable source that isn't basically a christian conservative that claims that that women are neurologically wired to play the gender script as 'woman'. 2.) What does it mean to say someone is 'mentally female'? Like seriously, grapple with that question. What characteristics, mannerisms, and such comes with that that aren't horribly stereotyping/absurd speculation of what it [I]means[/I] to be female? How is that any different from the absurd characteristics these Otherkin are doing (a focus on nuzzling, collars, etc, for dogs)? Like what sort of 'tests' would you run to differentiate a TG person that is faking it from someone who isn't (besides I guess measure white matter in 4 sections on the brain, but that is hardly verifying, is it?) Similarly, what test would you need to know that an Otherkin would be being authentic? I'm not misappropriating shit btw Noss, maybe you should actually read the article?

[QUOTE=Flameon;45483607]1.) Sexual Dymorphism in human beings is mainly reproductive organs, secondary sex characteristics, and basic things like aggression. [/QUOTE] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences]Nope, there is a good difference between male and female brain.[/url] And there is no wolf brain on record so far. [QUOTE=Flameon;45483607]It does not include gender as the social construct we think of it today. I dare you to find a single reputable source that isn't basically a christian conservative that claims that that women are neurologically wired to play the gender script as 'woman'. 2.) What does it mean to say someone is 'mentally female'? Like seriously, grapple with that question. What characteristics, mannerisms, and such comes with that that aren't horribly stereotyping/absurd speculation of what it [I]means[/I] to be female? How is that any different from the absurd characteristics these Otherkin are doing (a focus on nuzzling, collars, etc, for dogs)? [/QUOTE] You are confusing gender roles with gender identity. The standards how women and men should behave are social, the identification whether you are a male or a female is not, it's in the brain. A woman who's lets say homosexual and a truck driver or a lumberjack doesn't have to identify as a man. Changing your gender is not a matter of changing your behavior and the way you dress. It's a much deeper issue and people are killing themselves over this. Do you really think they would do that if it was so easy? [QUOTE=Flameon;45483607]Like what sort of 'tests' would you run to differentiate a TG person that is faking it from someone who isn't (besides I guess measure white matter in 4 sections on the brain, but that is hardly verifying, is it?)[/QUOTE] This [url]http://psychcentral.com/disorders/gender-dysphoria-symptoms/[/url] grounded in the fact that [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder]gender dysphoria[/url] is recognized by APA amongst other organizations of psychologists. As long as being "otherkin" is not recognized on the same level as gender dysphoria by world's psychologists, it will remain horseshit. [QUOTE=Flameon;45483607]Similarly, what test would you need to know that an Otherkin would be being authentic?[/QUOTE] What tests are you going to do for people who say they are the napoleon or jesus to test if those claims are authentic?

I'm a moonkin [img]http://oneroguesjourney.com/images/Moonkin.jpg[/img]

To further expand myself and other people's arguments, gender identity is incredibly well tied to our biology and mentality and defines who we are. To give otherkin the same weight to transgender people is the same as me saying 'I believe I'm a sponge on the inside'.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45476042]you haven't seen much then have you [editline]24th July 2014[/editline] oh 2013[/QUOTE] "lol join date" Actually since 2010. Also, the things I find funny may not be funny to you, so yeah.

[QUOTE=Flameon;45483607]Similarly, what test would you need to know that an Otherkin would be being authentic? [/QUOTE] How to assert that someone is mentally human: Step 1. Determine if they have fine motor skills and can communicate fluently with other humans Step 2. You're fucking done

[QUOTE=Noss;45481655]people don't wake up one day and decide that they want to become a transexual otherkin read about it on the internet and go 'hey i'm going to dress up like a wolf now'[/QUOTE] i've tried to rationalise why i don't see otherkin with the same merit as LGBT issues and this is finally the answer i was looking for if you were to remove the internet from an otherkin's life, chances are they'd trundle on 500% fine without worrying about identifying as something non-human if you were to remove the internet from a transsexual's life, they would still experience gender dysphoria and feel wrong

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45484998] You are confusing gender roles with gender identity. The standards how women and men should behave are social, the identification whether you are a male or a female is not, it's in the brain. A woman who's lets say homosexual and a truck driver or a lumberjack doesn't have to identify as a man. Changing your gender is not a matter of changing your behavior and the way you dress. It's a much deeper issue and people are killing themselves over this. Do you really think they would do that if it was so easy? This [url]http://psychcentral.com/disorders/gender-dysphoria-symptoms/[/url] grounded in the fact that [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder]gender dysphoria[/url] is recognized by APA amongst other organizations of psychologists. As long as being "otherkin" is not recognized on the same level as gender dysphoria by world's psychologists, it will remain horseshit.[/QUOTE] Do you people even read the thiings you link me?!??!?!??!?! You are making claims about a STRONG identification mentally with the the opposite sex body, but the WEBSITE you link to lists SEVER OTHER SIGNS. I'm bolding the ones that reveal GID to be grounded in [I]social[/I] expectations of what it 'means' to be female or male. If it was merely about 'gender identity' as opposed to 'gender roles', then none of the fucking following should be viewed by psychologists as SIGNS of GID. THE TRUTH IS: I am not CONFUSING gender identity with gender roles, gender identity is PART ANR PARCEL with an identification WITH gender roles. [quote]*repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex [B]*in boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing[/B] *strong and persistent preferences [B]for cross-sex roles in make-believe play[/B] or persistent fantasies of being the other sex [B]*a strong rejection of typical toys/games typically played by one’s sex.[/B] *intense desire to participate in the [B]stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex[/B] *strong preference for playmates of the other sex *a strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy *a strong desire for the primary (e.g., penis, vagina) or secondary (e.g., menstruation) sex characteristics of the other gender[/quote] [editline]24th July 2014[/editline] Also SIL, the link that was POSTED ABOVE looked at WHITE MATTER build up on 4 sections of the brain. That was the only 'verrified test' isolating a material difference between transexuals and cis people. Notice that in the wikipedia link you sent it said that [quote]Global and regional grey matter (GM) differs in men and women. Women have larger left orbitofrontal GM volumes and overall cortical thickness than men.[14] Behavioral implications of the greater volume have not yet been discovered[/quote] .................

[QUOTE=Flameon;45487450]Do you people even read the thiings you link me?!??!?!??!?! You are making claims about a STRONG identification mentally with the the opposite sex body, but the WEBSITE you link to lists SEVER OTHER SIGNS. I'm bolding the ones that reveal GID to be grounded in [I]social[/I] expectations of what it 'means' to be female or male. If it was merely about 'gender identity' as opposed to 'gender roles', then none of the fucking following should be viewed by psychologists as SIGNS of GID. THE TRUTH IS: I am not CONFUSING gender identity with gender roles, gender identity is PART ANR PARCEL with an identification WITH gender roles.[/QUOTE] Yes, people who identify as a gender also want to fit into those gender roles. That doesn't invalidate anything else that's been said, because we've established that the other elements are present. Of course there's a tendency for people who identify as the other gender to fit into those gender roles, but that's just an aspect of transgenderism. Just because gender roles are a sign of GID doesn't mean that that's the cause of GID, it's a symptom.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;45487599]Yes, people who identify as a gender also want to fit into those gender roles. That doesn't invalidate anything else that's been said, because we've established that the other elements are present. Of course there's a tendency for people who identify as the other gender to fit into those gender roles, but that's just an aspect of transgenderism. Just because gender roles are a sign of GID doesn't mean that that's the cause of GID, it's a symptom.[/QUOTE] Perhaps im being daft here, but why does this cause vs syptomn not apply for the desire to have the opposite sexed's body?

[QUOTE=Flameon;45487632]Perhaps im being daft here, but why does this cause vs syptomn not apply for the desire to have the opposite sexed's body?[/QUOTE] What do you mean?

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;45487650]What do you mean?[/QUOTE] This distinction you are setting up for syptomn vs cause, why can't the same case be made in the following way: "The desire to be the Other sex, and to feel like you do not belong in the body you were born with is merely a syptom, not the cause of GID."

[QUOTE=Flameon;45487689]This distinction you are setting up for syptomn vs cause, why can't the same case be made in the following way: "The desire to be the Other sex, and to feel like you do not belong in the body you were born with is merely a syptomn, not the cause of GID."[/QUOTE] Well perhaps this is a bit of speculation on my part, but the idea that the physical make-up of a person's brain would be hugely altered to become more like the opposite sex because somebody wants to be the other sex makes no sense to me whatsoever. If you can rationalize that somehow with some kind of explanation, I'd be willing to listen. It's irrelevant to the point of whether a transgender person's claims are more authentic than otherkin, because we can still see that their minds are actually altered to more closely match those of their professed gender, regardless of whether it was triggered from a birth anomaly or a psychological condition. This is clearly not the case with otherkin.

This thread just goes to show that no matter how much you try to reason with an 'Otherkin' you're just never going to win. Fandoms like these don't rely on intelligence and reasoning to get popular, after all.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;45487764]Well perhaps this is a bit of speculation on my part, but the idea that the physical make-up of a person's brain would be hugely altered to become more like the opposite sex because somebody wants to be the other sex makes no sense to me whatsoever. If you can rationalize that somehow with some kind of explanation, I'd be willing to listen. [/QUOTE] Its not hugely altered. I assume we are talking about the only piece thats been used in this conversation which concerns white matter buildup. [IMG]http://i.gyazo.com/f292f9c65c4ed3406bedef47286e8f6a.png[/IMG] Social experiences do affect brain makeup. Look at MRIs of people who have PTSD. [url]http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/181/2/102.long[/url] <--- This article explains it, but just google image search "PTSD MRI" It also is totally relevent to the question, because if we decide identification is social and emerges there, then the same could be said for Otherkin. This would also validate the claim that, "if there was no internet there would be less Otherkin." But the corollary would be that if our society didn't have unreasonable standards for gender subordination then we would also find there would be many less transgender people. [editline]24th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Noss;45487779]This thread just goes to show that no matter how much you try to reason with an 'Otherkin' you're just never going to win. Fandoms like these don't rely on intelligence and reasoning to get popular, after all.[/QUOTE] Lol... I'm not an Otherkin.

[QUOTE]It also is totally relevent to the question, because if we decide identification is social and emerges there, then the same could be said for Otherkin. This would also validate the claim that, "if there was no internet there would be less Otherkin." But the corollary would be that if our society didn't have unreasonable standards for gender subordination then we would also find there would be many less transgender people[/QUOTE] It's not relevant, species isn't some arbitrary social construct like gender roles, it's objective.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;45488182]It's not relevant, species isn't some arbitrary social construct like gender roles, it's objective.[/QUOTE] Right but even if the impetus for someone to be transgender is in occupying the social construct (i.e: the gende roles) the way it is FRAMED is in terms of the physical body. Thats why they say, "I feel like a man" rather, "I feel more at home in masculine gender roles". So they are both objective.

[QUOTE=Flameon;45487450]Do you people even read the thiings you link me?!??!?!??!?! You are making claims about a STRONG identification mentally with the the opposite sex body, but the WEBSITE you link to lists SEVER OTHER SIGNS. I'm bolding the ones that reveal GID to be grounded in [I]social[/I] expectations of what it 'means' to be female or male. If it was merely about 'gender identity' as opposed to 'gender roles', then none of the fucking following should be viewed by psychologists as SIGNS of GID.[/QUOTE] Please read the thing before calling out other people on not reading next time. [I][B][QUOTE]In children, the disturbance is manifested by six (or more) of the following for at least a 6-month duration:[/QUOTE][/B][/I] This is what children instinctively do. They try to fit in with the peers they feel they belong to and act like them. [QUOTE=Flameon;45487450]THE TRUTH IS: I am not CONFUSING gender identity with gender roles, gender identity is PART ANR PARCEL with an identification WITH gender roles.[/QUOTE]You are confusing gender identity and gender roles because these things, while most often come along with each other, are not inseparable (like being cis and straight). I told you, you can have a woman who's a lumberjack and does all kinds of masculine things but doesn't identify as a man. Hell, you can have a FtM who still likes feminine stuff. I don't know if you realize this but by saying stuff like this you are giving credit to the idea that women should do girly stuff while men do their masculine things. [QUOTE=Flameon;45487450]Also SIL, the link that was POSTED ABOVE looked at WHITE MATTER build up on 4 sections of the brain. That was the only 'verrified test' isolating a material difference between transexuals and cis people. Notice that in the wikipedia link you sent it said that .................[/QUOTE] Why did you take one of the things listed in the article and act like it's the "only" thing? And I linked you the difference between the brain of a male and a female not between transsexuals and cis people so I don't know what you're talking about. [editline]24th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Flameon;45487879]But the corollary would be that if our society didn't have unreasonable standards for gender subordination then we would also find there would be many less transgender people.[/QUOTE] Please, please stop saying stuff like this. It's incredibly stupid. Women are not undergoing sex change because they want to be mechanics.

[quote] Please, please stop saying stuff like this. It's incredibly stupid. Women are not undergoing sex change because they want to be mechanics.[/QUOTE] It isn't as simple as that :\, just like they aren't under going a sex change just beause they want a dick. They are undergoing a change because they want to occupy a gender identity which is more synched with a particularly sexed body. Why do some sexed bodies occupy a gender identity with less turbulence? Because our society mandates gender subordination. In a world without social preassures to conform, where would the impetus to view yourself as 'flawed' arise from? If you think I am suggesting that there are "really" appropriate gende roles for men or women, you would be sorely mistaken. And the reason I keep bringing up the white matter is that is the only article which neurlogicly discusses the brains of TS people in relation to male and female. while you may be right that there are neulogical differences between the brains of males and females, the only (TO MY KNOWLEDGE) differences between a f-2-m and a female is the white matter buildup.

[QUOTE=Flameon;45488993]It isn't as simple as that :\, just like they aren't under going a sex change just beause they want a dick. They are undergoing a change because they want to occupy a gender identity which is more synched with a particularly sexed body. Why do some sexed bodies occupy a gender identity with less turbulence? Because our society mandates gender subordination. In a world without social preassures to conform, where would the impetus to view yourself as 'flawed' arise from? If you think I am suggesting that there are "really" appropriate gende roles for men or women, you would be sorely mistaken. And the reason I keep bringing up the white matter is that is the only article which neurlogicly discusses the brains of TS people in relation to male and female. while you may be right that there are neulogical differences between the brains of males and females, the only (TO MY KNOWLEDGE) differences between a f-2-m and a female is the white matter buildup.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Biological-based_theories"]boop[/URL] No idea how relevant that stuff is, but might as well glace through it.

[QUOTE=Flameon;45488993]It isn't as simple as that :\, just like they aren't under going a sex change just beause they want a dick. They are undergoing a change because they want to occupy a gender identity which is more synched with a particularly sexed body. [/QUOTE] What? They already occupy gender identity that doesn't match their body. You can't change your gender identity. Their gender identity does not match their body. That's it. How masculine or feminine are the things they do is completely irrelevant. [QUOTE=Flameon;45488993]Why do some sexed bodies occupy a gender identity with less turbulence? [/QUOTE] What does that even mean? How can a body have a gender identity? This is just complete nonsense. [QUOTE=Flameon;45488993]Because our society mandates gender subordination. In a world without social preassures to conform, where would the impetus to view yourself as 'flawed' arise from?[/QUOTE] From the fact that you see that half of the population has a different body and you feel like the body you have does not match with who you are and you'd rather have the other one? Stop confusing gender roles and gender identity. If you woke up tomorrow with a completely different face, which you'd hate, what would the impetus be to view yourself as flawed? [QUOTE=Flameon;45488993] If you think I am suggesting that there are "really" appropriate gende roles for men or women, you would be sorely mistaken.[/QUOTE] You said gender identity and gender roles are inseparable. That means that if someone identifies as a man he should do the things men should do. You are advocating gender roles. [QUOTE=Flameon;45488993]And the reason I keep bringing up the white matter is that is the only article which neurlogicly discusses the brains of TS people in relation to male and female. while you may be right that there are neulogical differences between the brains of males and females, the only (TO MY KNOWLEDGE) differences between a f-2-m and a female is the white matter buildup.[/QUOTE] I posted the link to your claim that "Sexual Dymorphism in human beings is mainly reproductive organs, secondary sex characteristics, and basic things like aggression." You are now discussing a different point entirely.

[QUOTE=Flameon;45488993]It isn't as simple as that :\, just like they aren't under going a sex change just beause they want a dick. They are undergoing a change because they want to occupy a gender identity which is more synched with a particularly sexed body. Why do some sexed bodies occupy a gender identity with less turbulence? Because our society mandates gender subordination. In a world without social preassures to conform, where would the impetus to view yourself as 'flawed' arise from? If you think I am suggesting that there are "really" appropriate gende roles for men or women, you would be sorely mistaken. And the reason I keep bringing up the white matter is that is the only article which neurlogicly discusses the brains of TS people in relation to male and female. while you may be right that there are neulogical differences between the brains of males and females, the only (TO MY KNOWLEDGE) differences between a f-2-m and a female is the white matter buildup.[/QUOTE] You have provided 0 evidence for your argument and dismiss anything said to you. Do you honestly think there isnt a metric fuckton of research data on trans issues? You cant have the mind of a fucking dog or cat or whatever other "kin" exists. Why are you still arguing? Seriously, you should be perma'd as a gimmick cuz imo no one is this dumb.

Hah what the hell I thought this thing was a joke.

[QUOTE=zerothefallen;45489345]You have provided 0 evidence for your argument and dismiss anything said to you. Do you honestly think there isnt a metric fuckton of research data on trans issues? You cant have the mind of a fucking dog or cat or whatever other "kin" exists. Why are you still arguing? Seriously, you should be perma'd as a gimmick cuz imo no one is this dumb.[/QUOTE] Not a gimmick, I have also been the only fucking person in this entire thread to link to an accredited academic article about gender dysphoria and its intersection with neuroscience. I am just concerned with the knee-jerk reaction to dismiss an identity that is different than your own. BTW: there is scientific SPECULATION of the causes of tg an ts - not an accepted theory. Thats why the answer isn't readily apparent. [QUOTE=PelPix123;45490457] This is your essential mistake. I know [I]tons[/I] of FTM guys that just got penises added and their breasts removed and still dress and act and present the same (in fact, I know more of these than people that want to change social genders). What about people who are [I]transsexual[/I] but not [I]transgender[/I]? The foundation of transsexualtiy is genital dysphoria. Your argument doesn't even seem to touch on that at all. I'm trans and I don't really care all that much about my social role or any BS like that; I just want to get rid of my body dysphoria and phantom vagina because it just doesn't feel right on a daily basis. That's 99% of trans people I know. This whole "oh we just want to change social genders" thing that you claim is "all transgender people" is foreign to me.[/QUOTE] Perhaps this is my leap of faith, but at the end of the day I think the emergence of these desires is social first, chemical second. I say this given all I have known concerning the maleability of human life and experience and with a caution of cementing the possibility of change to the roll of the celluar dice. Then again, why is it so hard for you people to think that the same sort of phantom twitching feeling you have inside of you that your vagina doesnt belong or your friends that think their breasts are foreign - why is it so hard to think that for some people its every aching inch of their being that feels foreign? That, if surgery were possible, they would opt in an instant to be in the body of a wolf, or a bear, or a cat or whatever the fuck. How would you feel if someone pathologized you? Said: "Listen, I know you 'SAY' you feel your current body is intolerable, but you are wrong. let me explain your feelings TO you." That is what everyone in this thread is basically doing. From a sociological perspective, the fact that there are TS and TG people that distance themselves from a claimed identity category founded on the same idea of dysphoria is super interesting. [editline]24th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=PelPix123;45490457] [B]In my experience, trans people people wanting to become "socially" another gender-role stems from the fact that their genital dysphoria gets worse every time they are reminded that they have the wrong sex's body.[/B] [B]The desire to change social genders, mannerisms, dress style, etc seems to just be something that is done to make sure they're reminded by themselves and other people that their body is the wrong sex as little as possible.[/B] In essence, my experience is the opposite of your claim: it seems like people change social genders because of genital dysphoria, not the other way around, as you have stated; it's bottom-up, not top-down.[/QUOTE] I just want to clarify what you are saying here: You are saying: People personally identify with some gender script and when they express that gender script they get backlash because it doesn't link up with their currently sexed body, so they have a choice to either modify their gender script to be in-line with the sexed body they occupy (a sort of internal policing) OR they identify as trans and seek to transition to a sexed body which lets them live their desired gender script fully. Is that right?

[QUOTE=PelPix123;45490809] No. Exactly the other way around[U][I][B]. I'm saying transsexual people feel they should have a certainly-sexed body and they adopt social gender roles related to the body they feel they should have only because that's what they're taught goes along with the new body. [/B][/I][/U]In essence, I'm saying that your fundamental assumption is flawed, because the base reason for transitioning has to do with feeling like one should have the opposite sex physically, and the social transition only comes with societal pressure. What I mean is: your assumption that ftms don't transition "just to have dicks" is actually wrong,[B] because they do. That's EXACTLY why.[/B][/QUOTE] It may be the fact that I do not have genital dysphoria that this is hard for me to get. I will meditate on that, thank you for sharing.

I can finally be... [I]Dragonborn[/I] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVVXNDv8rY0[/media] [editline]25th July 2014[/editline] Brb gonna go yell at people on the street

[QUOTE=PelPix123;45490958]Let me try to explain really simply. No, I'm not angry at all. I am always open to discussion and questions if you would like to PM me at any time. I'm a lot less militant about this than most other people you'll talk to on the subject. First off, let me explain what genital dysphoria feels like and the nature of its occurence: Genital dysphoria feels, essentially, like phantom limb syndrome. You feel a phantom impression of the genitalia and body you should have. This feeling is always present, but your brain begins filtering it out eventually. Your brain can filter it out until something reminds you of the mismatch, such as something new physically touching the area. However, it's also possible for social factors to turn off the brain's filter, because gender norms are equated psychologically with physical sex (An erroneous assumption, yeah, but it is what it is). So, as a result, people with genital dysphoria are forced to feel an incredibly unpleasant sensation that i would describe as a sort of "FLUMP" every time someone treats them as the gender role of their identifying sex not because they feel the gender role is wrong, as you have assumed, but because it reminds them that they aren't their identifying sex and neutralizes the filter the brain set up to cut out the genital dysphoria. To avoid this, they begin presenting as the opposite gender. In essence, what I'm saying is that transsexual people aren't inherently transgender from the get-go, they're just shoehorned into being transgender in order to not be reminded that they're transsexual.[/QUOTE] That's really interesting, thanks for sharing.

This is actually really sad.

Late as fuck, but anyone who identifies as an animal/plant/whatever the fuck should seek help because that shit's an actual mental disorder. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_lycanthropy[/url] A lot of these otherkin folk seem to portray features of clinical lycanthropy, possibly a newer unknown form where they identify as rocks and such.

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;45568001]Late as fuck, but anyone who identifies as an animal/plant/whatever the fuck should seek help because that shit's an actual mental disorder. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_lycanthropy[/url] A lot of these otherkin folk seem to portray features of clinical lycanthropy, possibly a newer unknown form where they identify as rocks and such.[/QUOTE] Please don't suggest that RockKin is a mental disorder. On a more serious note, listen to this guy. You aren't sane if you genuinely believe that you're a wolf inside, trying to argue otherwise just makes you appear worse.