It looks like the pointless religious arguments decided to move on down to the video section for today
[QUOTE=BmB;23410362]Jesus pay attention. The christians have blown this argument out of the water. That doesn't make their answer right, but it means you can't have this as a complaint without looking like a total fucking douche.[/QUOTE]
No, they haven't. If god truly is the creator of [B]everything[/B], this would mean he would have to have created evil and suffering for them to exist.
Don't give me any of this "free will" bullshit, because according to Genesis, we didn't have free will until we ate a strange fruit from a stupid tree that shouldn't have existed in the first place, thus angering God and condemning ourselves with an eternity of being punished for an incredibly contrived incident that could have just been undone by an omnipotent creator.
"It's the absence of God", you say. "Shut the fuck up", I say. The bible claims God is omnipresent.
[QUOTE=BmB;23416243]Taking genocide as an example, sure it's no fun for the ones stuck in Auschwitz, but the other party only does it because they genuinely think it will better the world. How is that really "evil"?[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously trying to fucking justify genocide?
No, I'm not. But I'm trying to show not even genocide is born from some magical dark side of the force.
And uh, yeah. You basically refuse to understand it again. I have no idea about the bible and even I know these things. We had free will from the beginning, and it was of Eve's own volition that she decided to defy the lord.
And what does it matter that the bible says god is omnipresent? Are you suggesting we accept things just because the bible says them now?
Also, allow me to laugh my ass off:
[QUOTE=HellSoldier;23416612]I don't think killing people is a very natural instinct for people in a 'modern' society (except for capital punishment).[/QUOTE]
:roflolmao:
[QUOTE=BmB;23421463]And what does it matter that the bible says god is omnipresent? Are you suggesting we accept things just because the bible says them now?
[/QUOTE]
Any information you have about any god , was either told or written by someone. It's pretty slick to ignore all the contradictions and weak spots.
[QUOTE=BmB;23421463]No, I'm not. But I'm trying to show not even genocide is born from some magical dark side of the force.
And uh, yeah. You basically refuse to understand it again. I have no idea about the bible and even I know these things. We had free will from the beginning, and it was of Eve's own volition that she decided to defy the lord.
And what does it matter that the bible says god is omnipresent? Are you suggesting we accept things just because the bible says them now?
Also, allow me to laugh my ass off:
:roflolmao:[/QUOTE]
I agree with you. We should not listen to the bible about anything.
[QUOTE=BmB;23416243]You didn't read a thing I said. In fact I might go as far as saying you misrepresented my position. And that is never needed.
There's a pronoun going around that you might have heard of. Nothing is so bad it isn't good for something.
Taking genocide as an example, sure it's no fun for the ones stuck in Auschwitz, but the other party only does it because they genuinely think it will better the world. How is that really "evil"?[/QUOTE]
I read exactly what you said.
What I'm saying is that your opinion on evil would differ if you had actually experienced it.
It would be hard to rationalize the holocaust as anything but absolute evil if you had experienced it.
I'll just say this, your god is all powerfull and can do whatever he wants, right? Well why did he create hell, destruction, killing, or why the hell did he even let Eve eat the apple, even better why did he create the fucking tree? If he is good he wouldn't have let that happen, or would have somehow changed it since he can do anything he wants. If a parent lets a kid walk across the road and a truck runs him over, you don't say that he's good because he gave him free will, you say that he should be thrown in jail.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;23422020]I read exactly what you said.
What I'm saying is that your opinion on evil would differ if you had actually experienced it.
It would be hard to rationalize the holocaust as anything but absolute evil if you had experienced it.[/QUOTE]
So I wouldn't think clearly about evil if I had an emotional incentive to be unreasonable about it? Well hooray. Try and think for a moment before posting next time.
[QUOTE=BmB;23422056]So I wouldn't think clearly about evil if I had an emotional incentive to be unreasonable about it? Well hooray. Try and think for a moment before posting next time.[/QUOTE]
What was wrong with his post? If you have experienced something in person you have a better understanding of it. And you seem to intentionally misread everything anybody writes in this thread, are you by any chance trolling?
[QUOTE=BmB;23422056]So I wouldn't think clearly about evil if I had an emotional incentive to be unreasonable about it? Well hooray. Try and think for a moment before posting next time.[/QUOTE]
Or perhaps you would understand that the problem of evil and suffering is an entirely emotional issue, and that having a disgusting attitude to the holocaust adds nothing to the argument.
Try to think for a moment before posting next time.
This guy is always correct. Except for the Rob Schneider part.
Okay, darth. Clearly it was the dark side of the force that drove people to genocide. I'll try not to underestimate its power next time. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=BmB;23422124]Okay, darth. Clearly it was the dark side of the force that drove people to genocide. I'll try not to underestimate its power next time. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Hah, and you accused me of strawmanning your argument.
Well then you must express yourself more clearly than "but it was because of evil! lol."
This guy is awesome
[QUOTE=BmB;23422180]Well then you must express yourself more clearly than "but it was because of evil! lol."[/QUOTE]
When did I ever say that the holocaust was caused because of evil.
Well then you have no case and should be quiet.
[QUOTE=BmB;23422214]Well then you have no case and should be quiet.[/QUOTE]
If you had actually read what I was posting then you'd understand that I was saying the holocaust was an evil act, but not caused by evil.
BmB, just a heads up. Before accusing someone of not reading your own argument, you should read their argument properly (because it seems that you don't read their arguments). As TheThing said:
[QUOTE=TheThing;23422083]What was wrong with his post? If you have experienced something in person you have a better understanding of it. [B] And you seem to intentionally misread everything anybody writes in this thread[/B], are you by any chance trolling?[/QUOTE]
Whatever, how do you define that as evil? Clearly someone thought it was a good idea.
[QUOTE=BmB;23428032]Whatever, how do you define that as evil? Clearly someone thought it was a good idea.[/QUOTE]
It's evil because it causes pain, suffering and death. Simple as that.
Killing people is never a good thing no matter how you perceive it, because if you honestly think genocide is a good idea then you are infact a sick, evil person.
How can anyone explain this more clearly to you?
BmB, what you don't understand is that this isn't 100% about free will. Christians have NOT debunked this argument because their debunking of the argument has nothing to do with instinctive responses.
IE, in an interview a man is asked what he would do if the world was about to end, and he says he would definitely rape someone. Now, assuming we're all very stupid and we think this is due to some magic being programming our brains to inherently be this way, there is also the argument stating "Why would god make our inherent programming like that?". No matter how you look at it, god is a dick.
I have to say though, I don't know if I could agree about the friend seeing what you're doing part. As far as I can tell, from every single kind of god game, people rarely ever take the benevolent path. They usually torch the fuck out of their people and drop huge boulders on them.
Again, not understanding it. I'm not really qualified to explain it. Ask a real christian.
[editline]10:50PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr.Cookie;23429566]It's evil because it causes pain, suffering and death. Simple as that.
Killing people is never a good thing no matter how you perceive it, because if you honestly think genocide is a good idea then you are infact a sick, evil person.
How can anyone explain this more clearly to you?[/QUOTE]
War in Iraq causes pain suffering and death, yet there are people on both sides that think it's a good idea. Is that evil somehow?
[QUOTE=BmB;23430298]Again, not understanding it. I'm not really qualified to explain it. Ask a real christian.
[editline]10:50PM[/editline]
War in Iraq causes pain suffering and death, yet there are people on both sides that think it's a good idea. Is that evil somehow?[/QUOTE]
No, that's not a defence.
The Free Will defence is not satisfactory for many philosophers, if it was as easy to "blow his argument out of the water" as you describe, it would have been done. Except it hasn't, and ever since the Greeks there has been an ongoing argument.
It has been done, just nobody cares. Like you.
[QUOTE=BmB;23435487]It has been done, just nobody cares. Like you.[/QUOTE]
You know absolutely nothing if you think it has.
If it had, then there wouldn't still be a debate over it.
Christ, I'm going to keep repeating this until you understand. If it had been as simply dismissed as Free Will, then it wouldn't be such a powerful argument. I mean for fucks sake even philosophers from the 19th century were saying it doesn't cut it, like Dostoyevsky.
If you can justify the suffering of children and shit like that by saying "Free Will", then you're a monster frankly.
Not only that, but free will does nothing to solve the problems created by Natural Evil either.
And again you are showing the only reason it's a problem is because you don't understand it at all.
[QUOTE=BmB;23436119]And again you are showing the only reason it's a problem is because you don't understand it at all.[/QUOTE]
Oops, well I guess all the other philosophers who have argued against it didn't "understand" it either.
[QUOTE=BmB;23414125]You can't experience evil at all. Evil is circumstantial. And highly dependent on your viewpoint. Like it or not, but the free will argument holds up. Where it breaks down is that *god does not make sense to begin with*.[/QUOTE]
The only reason you have a different opinion is because you need to believe in what ever god you think is real because you're programed to do so.
Speak for yourself mate.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
