Anita Sarkeesian bullshitting about how it feels to be a gamergate target - General

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963203] I get saying that social bias doesn't necessarily lead to sexism, but to say it NEVER does is flat out wrong. [/QUOTE] Well good thing I didn't. Social bias does not equal sexism. They are two different things. Proving that there's social bias in the gaming industry doesn't automatically make it sexist.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963638]Sure! [url=http://www.nature.com/news/elite-labs-hire-more-men-than-women-1.15483]Elite labs hire more men than women[/url] [url=http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-08-28/women-graduating-from-business-school-get-fewer-job-offers-than-men]Women graduating from business school get fewer job offers than men[/url] [url=http://www.pnas.org/content/111/12/4403.abstract]Study on how managers are twice as likely to hire a man over a woman in science fields[/url] [url=http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/03/12/3396151/women-bias-math-stem/]Women are less likely to get hired in math jobs even when they perform as well as men[/url] Also: [url=http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/women.aspx]Women who succeed in male-dominated careers are often seen negatively, suggests study[/url] [url=http://fortune.com/2014/08/14/when-competing-in-a-male-dominated-field-women-should-man-up/]When competing in male-dominated fields, women do better when playing up skills associated with men[/url] Now, I'd love to see a study that proves your point instead![/QUOTE] Now that's constructive, you should have posted that first instead of arguing about quotas being indicative of discriminatory selection.

[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;46963640]Well good thing I didn't. Social bias does not equal sexism. They are two different things. Proving that there's social bias in the gaming industry doesn't automatically make it sexist. [b]Now prove me there's sexism in the gaming industry.[/b][/QUOTE] [url]http://variety.com/2013/digital/features/womengamers1200683299-1200683299/[/url] [quote]There are still big differences in salary, with the average income for women 27% smaller than the average income for men in the biz.[/quote]

I believe there's sexism in everything, but it's better to argue about the sources of sexism and talk about ways to prevent it. For instance, what causes the wage gap between genders? Simply stopping at "sexism" is too vague to be productive.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963638]Sure! [URL="http://www.nature.com/news/elite-labs-hire-more-men-than-women-1.15483"]Elite labs hire more men than women[/URL] [URL="http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-08-28/women-graduating-from-business-school-get-fewer-job-offers-than-men"]Women graduating from business school get fewer job offers than men[/URL] [URL="http://www.pnas.org/content/111/12/4403.abstract"]Study on how managers are twice as likely to hire a man over a woman in science fields[/URL] [URL="http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/03/12/3396151/women-bias-math-stem/"]Women are less likely to get hired in math jobs even when they perform as well as men[/URL] Also: [URL="http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/women.aspx"]Women who succeed in male-dominated careers are often seen negatively, suggests study[/URL] [URL="http://fortune.com/2014/08/14/when-competing-in-a-male-dominated-field-women-should-man-up/"]When competing in male-dominated fields, women do better when playing up skills associated with men[/URL] Now, I'd love to see a study that proves your point instead![/QUOTE] [URL]http://www.pnas.org/content/111/24/8782.full?sid=21089fb8-b56e-4630-8d65-a29d42abe311[/URL] gender politics into.. hurricanes... interesting.. study? Anyways, this is studies based of a select group of people - we could do the same thing the other way around with scientific articles, for example [URL]http://fortune.com/2014/10/23/female-workers-tech-industry/[/URL] [URL]https://medium.com/matter/this-is-the-last-thing-youll-ever-need-to-read-about-sexism-in-tech-56b9a3a77af0[/URL] [URL]http://www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/[/URL] [URL]http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmsctech/701/701.pdf[/URL] It's a debate that has been raging for centuries; I highly doubt the cause is sexism, though. I know people who own companies and their response is the same : We hire based on past performance. Are they just saying that? Maybe. But these are all theories. It would take years to research this, it's a social thing. I think the cause is the lack of encouragement at a young age, not that people don't want to hire them. If we encouraged girls to invest more into "boy" things then maybe they would be more likely to go into professionals that are predominately boys. [editline]a[/editline] Honestly think were getting off topic here, also the article you quote : [quote]More changes are guaranteed as more women play games.[/quote] Is completely correct. It's not definite evidence that there is sexism in games though.

[QUOTE=_Axel;46963676]Now that's constructive, you should have posted that first instead of arguing about quotas being indicative of discriminatory selection.[/QUOTE] And you should probably not take anecdotes from your friends in engineering fields as evidence. But anyway, the thing is, male to female ratios and discriminatory selection almost always go hand in hand. I don't have a statistic for this specifically, but I can say with conviction how there's probably not a single male-dominated industry out there that doesn't discriminate women in one way or another, and there's no reason as to why the gaming industry would be any different.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963682][url]http://variety.com/2013/digital/features/womengamers1200683299-1200683299/[/url][/QUOTE] This is the quotas thing all over again, that statistic doesn't take into account the job description and the salary in consideration. In an industry dominated by males (social bias not being sexism and all that jazz) it's only natural that there would be more males in important positions. Want to know how I know that people with the same job descriptions are being paid the same? Because doing otherwise IS ALREADY ILLEGAL. THERE ARE LAWS AGAINST IT AND IF IT HAPPENS YOU CAN GO TO THE POLICE. As a foot note, using an entertainment magazine as a source is not exactly impressive

Again, how are videogames themselves sexist against women? The industry has problems with many different root sources and causes, but it doesn't excuse the attack on videogames themselves. I'm not really sure what were arguing here- with more men there's bound to be some sexism in this industry, and there are many many almost uncountable causes to why this is, which is why it's kind of pointless to argue about it. I want to know why videogames themselves are the problem, as Anita claims.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963721]And you should probably not take anecdotes from your friends in engineering fields as evidence.[/QUOTE] Dude, those aren't anecdotes. Not once have I heard anything from my classmates implying women are less suited for the job, nor have I seen anything indicating it. I doubt it's an exception. Older employers might have a more outdated point of view, but that's certainly not something I see in our generation. [QUOTE]But anyway, the thing is, male to female ratios and discriminatory selection almost always go hand in hand.[/QUOTE] That doesn't make associating the two less logically unfounded.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;46963691]I believe there's sexism in everything, but it's better to argue about the sources of sexism and talk about ways to prevent it. For instance, what causes the wage gap between genders? Simply stopping at "sexism" is too vague to be productive.[/QUOTE] The thing is that it's very hard to get into it, especially in places like Facepunch, because, as you're seeing here, the argument usually stops at the first hurdle. Once people agree on "yes, sexism is a problem in the field" then we can move on and examine the causes of it. [QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;46963718]It's a debate that has been raging for centuries; I highly doubt the cause is sexism, though.[/QUOTE] What's the cause, then? Isn't the lack of encouragement sexist in its own way? When toys, cartoons, movies and shows that relate to and praise science or engineering are geared towards boys, doesn't that give the media a bit of a sexist bias? Look, I'm not putting any blame on individuals, sexism is a societal issue, and nobody is born prejudiced against the other sex, but the thing is, employers can end up being sexist in their choices, consciously or not. People need to admit that the media has plenty of questionable ideals, and that those ideals can influence even the people who don't think of themselves as sexist. [QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;46963734]As a foot note, using an entertainment magazine as a source is not exactly impressive[/QUOTE] Why is the source a problem when the research was done by a company that actually especializes in that? Perhaps you can provide a source that debunks the one I've provided? [QUOTE=_Axel;46963758]That doesn't make associating the two less logically unfounded.[/QUOTE] Logically unfounded, when I literally just showed you scientific analysis that shows it's true?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963809]Logically unfounded, when I literally just showed you scientific analysis that shows it's true?[/QUOTE] You don't get it. Saying that unbalanced ratios automatically implies discrimination is a fallacy. A simple scenario where a job is regarded as being for men and less attractive for women would result in a gender unbalance too, despite lacking the discrimination component.

Third time, it's an issue that can be argued forever because of the millions of factors that play into it, it's a social issue - it's basically luck of the draw on what you believe - people could pull articles out of their asses all day, both of us. It'll get us nowhere - it's an issue that will solve itself in 5-10 years when more females get into videogames, hopefully. How do video games themselves make people sexist?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963721]I don't have a statistic for this specifically, but I can say with conviction how there's probably not a single male-dominated industry out there that doesn't discriminate women in one way or another, and there's no reason as to why the gaming industry would be any different.[/QUOTE] Ah well, if you say it with conviction then I guess it must be true, you got me there [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963809] Why is the source a problem when the research was done by a company that actually especializes in that? Perhaps you can provide a source that debunks the one I've provided?[/QUOTE] I don't need to debunk a statistic when I've already explained to you why, accurate or not, it doesn't prove any of what you're trying to say But I'm sure there's a good reason why you dumbed my post without addressing any of it, I'm done here

[QUOTE=Cone;46963293]yes outside media is very important to the issue, but i think less directly than you expect. cos it seems to me that when everyone since the 90's has thought of games as an exclusively all-boys club, it sounds very plausible for people in the industry to start thinking the same thing? or at least find it really bizarre when people try to discourage sexism with anything stronger than just vague and unsubstantiated statements against it. outside media is as far from a closed system as you can get[/QUOTE] Then why have so many women been pivotal in game development history? Even to this day.

[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;46963868]Ah well, if you say it with conviction then I guess it must be true, you got me there I don't need to debunk a statistic when I've already explained to you why, accurate or not, it doesn't prove any of what you're trying to say But I'm sure there's a good reason why you dumbed my post without addressing any of it, I'm done here[/QUOTE] If you have such a big problem with my sources, why don't you provide one of your own for the things you've been saying here? [editline]19th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;46963840]How do video games themselves make people sexist?[/QUOTE] It's not so much that videogames MAKE people sexist, it's more that they contribute to an inequal view when it comes to gender. It should go without saying that it's not something videogames create or purposefully use, it's something they perpetuate because it only reflects the already existing bias in other sides of the media, and thus in society.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963682][url]http://variety.com/2013/digital/features/womengamers1200683299-1200683299/[/url][/QUOTE] I wish they cite their statistics. Their data is correct, but their interpretation of it is likely false. I agree that it's a sausage fest (there were only five women in my CS major), but it's unlikely that they are underpaid. There are multiple fields and positions in programming that pay more than others.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964109]It's not so much that videogames MAKE people sexist, it's more that they contribute to an inequal view when it comes to gender. It should go without saying that it's not something videogames create or purposefully use, it's something they perpetuate because it only reflects the already existing bias in other sides of the media, and thus in society.[/QUOTE] You do know videogames more often than not are purely fictional? Using that logic dystopian pieces of media have a negative influence on society because they perpetuate inequal views. Do you think 1984 or Blade Runner have such an impact?

I just think that video games need more female characters to choose from. There's simply not enough girls for women to choose from. In games like Left 4 Dead, there's one girl to three guys, despite the fact that there are tons of women in real life (especially in mine) who play video games. I love over the top macho games but the creators seem to have a focus on guys, then use the results to suggest that they need to keep focusing on guys. It's a bit cyclical. However, that can only fix single player game play. Multi-player game play will always suffer because of anonymity. Everyone is harassed in Internet video games.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964109]It's not so much that videogames MAKE people sexist, it's more that they contribute to an inequal view when it comes to gender. It should go without saying that it's not something videogames create or purposefully use, it's something they perpetuate because it only reflects the already existing bias in other sides of the media, and thus in society.[/QUOTE] Should I also mention you're using the same rhetoric as people who claim violent video games have a negative influence on society?

[QUOTE=_Axel;46964166]You do know videogames more often than not are purely fictional? Using that logic dystopian pieces of media have a negative influence on society because they perpetuate inequal views. Do you think 1984 or Blade Runner have such an impact?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=_Axel;46964188]Should I also mention you're using the same rhetoric as people who claim violent video games have a negative influence on society?[/QUOTE] There is a difference between sci-fi that is just so out there (not to mention puts those societies in a bad light), and more subtle and recurrent stories and character archetypes. And as for your second post, I need to point out that every piece of media has an influence on society. Do violent video games have an effect? Yes, probably, but I highly doubt it's anything significant. Just because I'm using the same argument it doesn't mean I believe it should go to the same extent as those people

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963638]Sure! [URL="http://fortune.com/2014/08/14/when-competing-in-a-male-dominated-field-women-should-man-up/"]When competing in male-dominated fields, women do better when playing up skills associated with men[/URL] Now, I'd love to see a study that proves your point instead![/QUOTE] Just wanted to ask something. Why and how is independence and assertiveness a masculine trait? That's like saying as a pediatrician, men do better when playing up skills associated with women like thoughtfulness and caring. Ergo male pediatrics suffer from misandry.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964351]There is a difference between sci-fi that is just so out there (not to mention puts those societies in a bad light), and more subtle and recurrent stories and character archetypes. And as for your second post, I need to point out that every piece of media has an influence on society. Do violent video games have an effect? Yes, probably, but I highly doubt it's anything significant. Just because I'm using the same argument it doesn't mean I believe it should go to the same extent as those people[/QUOTE] If you don't think ultraviolent videogames have any significant impact on society, why would sexist ones be any different? If you use the same argument then they both should yield the same result.

[QUOTE=_Axel;46964415]If you don't think ultraviolent videogames have any significant impact on society, why would sexist ones be any different? If you use the same argument then they both should yield the same result.[/QUOTE] "If you're saying that insults can offend people then calling someone a cunt and calling someone a doofus should be equally offensive, if you use the same argument then they should both yield the same results" is what you sound like Violence is quite different from sexism. Common sense is probably going to hold you back from punching random people in the streets anyway, and you're not gonna do it just because you played GTA because that'd be retarded. Casual sexism is a thing, on the other hand, and you might just not realize what extent you're using it to. It's much easier to perpetuate or reinforce stereotypes people may already hold than it is to influence someone to lash out violently for no reason.

[QUOTE=Thlis;46964383]Just wanted to ask something. Why and how is independence and assertiveness a masculine trait? That's like saying as a pediatrician, men do better when playing up skills associated with women like thoughtfulness and caring. Ergo male pediatrics suffer from misandry.[/QUOTE] I'm going to go out on a fucking massive limb and state for thousands of years women were literally [B]dependent [/B]on men. Therefore independence is masculine. Yes/No? [editline]19th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964109] It's not so much that videogames MAKE people sexist, it's more that they contribute to an inequal view when it comes to gender. It should go without saying that it's not something videogames create or purposefully use, it's something they perpetuate because it only reflects the already existing bias in other sides of the media, and thus in society.[/QUOTE] Video games perpetuate and unequal view on gender? How so?

[QUOTE=MadPro119;46964516]I'm going to go out on a fucking massive limb and state for thousands of years women were literally [B]dependent [/B]on men. Therefore independence is masculine. Yes/No?[/QUOTE] Why should independence be permanently considered a male trait rather than just a human trait? Is Emily Warren Roebling considered a victim because she acted with independence and assertiveness or is she admired?

[QUOTE=Thlis;46964519]Why should independence be permanently considered a male trait rather than just a human trait?[/QUOTE] Because it persists in us today. [quote] Independence and invulnerability Men are significantly less likely to visit their physicians to receive preventive health care examinations. Men make 134.5 million fewer physician visits than American women each year. In fact, men make only 40.8% of all physician visits. A quarter of the men who are 45 to 60 do not have a personal physician. Men should go to annual heart checkups with physicians but many do not, increasing their risk of death from heart disease. In fact, men between the ages of 25 and 65 are four times more likely to die from cardiovascular disease than women. Men are more likely to be diagnosed in a later stage of a terminal illness because of their reluctance to go to the doctor. This may also be due to the fact that men tend to not notice symptoms as quickly as women do. Jerry Kaiser, a health-care consultant believes that, "Men… [are] still basically hunters and warriors… They tend to not pay attention to things that are invisible and internal. If there is no clear external stimulus, there's no response." The strange irony is that the male body is physically much less tolerant to pain than that of women, though men are pressured socially to deal with pain more. However, when one considers that women are the child-bearers it is easier to understand why men may not need to be naturally so pain-tolerant. The heavier use of drugs and alcohol among men is probably the way our culture deems it "macho" for a man to mask physical and perhaps, emotional, pain. The natural male vulnerability to physical pain is probably why men drink so heavily. Also, men (who can, in fact, be pained emotionally and psychologically inside as can be women) cannot cry in our society so they drown their emotional woes (and sometimes physical pain as from injury) with beer and booze.[/quote] [url]http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Masculinity[/url]

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964476]"If you're saying that insults can offend people then calling someone a cunt and calling someone a doofus should be equally offensive, if you use the same argument then they should both yield the same results" is what you sound like Violence is quite different from sexism. Common sense is probably going to hold you back from punching random people in the streets anyway, and you're not gonna do it just because you played GTA because that'd be retarded. Casual sexism is a thing, on the other hand, and you might just not realize what extent you're using it to. It's much easier to perpetuate or reinforce stereotypes people may already hold than it is to influence someone to lash out violently for no reason.[/QUOTE] all I'm hearing from you are a lot of baseless assumptions If you have no evidence to suggest that media "reinforces or perpetuates" sexist thoughts or attitudes, it doesn't matter how obvious you think it is or how much conviction you speak with. You're talking out of your ass.

[QUOTE=Thlis;46964519]Why should independence be permanently considered a male trait rather than just a human trait? Is Emily Warren Roebling considered a victim because she acted with independence and assertiveness or is she admired?[/QUOTE] Admired of course. Why would she be a victim for displaying masculine traits?

[QUOTE=MadPro119;46964534]Because it persists in us today. [quote]Independence and invulnerability Men are significantly less likely to visit their physicians to receive preventive health care examinations. Men make 134.5 million fewer physician visits than American women each year. In fact, men make only 40.8% of all physician visits. A quarter of the men who are 45 to 60 do not have a personal physician. Men should go to annual heart checkups with physicians but many do not, increasing their risk of death from heart disease. In fact, men between the ages of 25 and 65 are four times more likely to die from cardiovascular disease than women. Men are more likely to be diagnosed in a later stage of a terminal illness because of their reluctance to go to the doctor. This may also be due to the fact that men tend to not notice symptoms as quickly as women do. Jerry Kaiser, a health-care consultant believes that, "Men… [are] still basically hunters and warriors… They tend to not pay attention to things that are invisible and internal. If there is no clear external stimulus, there's no response." The strange irony is that the male body is physically much less tolerant to pain than that of women, though men are pressured socially to deal with pain more. However, when one considers that women are the child-bearers it is easier to understand why men may not need to be naturally so pain-tolerant. The heavier use of drugs and alcohol among men is probably the way our culture deems it "macho" for a man to mask physical and perhaps, emotional, pain. The natural male vulnerability to physical pain is probably why men drink so heavily. Also, men (who can, in fact, be pained emotionally and psychologically inside as can be women) cannot cry in our society so they drown their emotional woes (and sometimes physical pain as from injury) with beer and booze.[/quote] [url]http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Masculinity[/url][/QUOTE] I think there is a key flaw [quote]Jerry Kaiser, a health-care consultant[B] believes that[/B],...[/quote] [QUOTE=MadPro119;46964537]Admired of course. Why would she be a victim for displaying masculine traits?[/QUOTE] So why is it a bad thing to act with independence and assertiveness?

A story isn't devalued if it doesn't focus on a specific gender or race. However, it can contribute to a greater question: if a man can only dream up great stories about other men and never about another woman, what does that say about that man? I have no answer for this, but I do think it's a bit worrysome and quite a bit unfair to the many females of my life that are video game fanatics. My mother is a great example of someone who goes all out on video games - she's played through every Zelda, the first Bioshock, the Dragon Age series, Skyrim, tons and tons of Mario Parties with the family, Portal 1 and 2, and tons of other games. Recently, she played Team Fortress 2 as Pyro. It was hilarious. I've also had tons of seemingly every day friends who turn out to be the most devoted to Team Fortress 2. However, most of these games are centered around men. It doesn't kill the experience, but it can create a small disconnect - a wish for a representative idol.