Anita Sarkeesian bullshitting about how it feels to be a gamergate target - General

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964109]If you have such a big problem with my sources, why don't you provide one of your own for the things you've been saying here? [editline]19th January 2015[/editline] It's not so much that videogames MAKE people sexist, it's more that they contribute to an inequal view when it comes to gender. It should go without saying that it's not something videogames create or purposefully use, it's something they perpetuate because it only reflects the already existing bias in other sides of the media, and thus in society.[/QUOTE] Look, if video games don't cause violence, which we've proven they don't, can you tell me how and why you believe that sexism, and specifically misogyny is something that IS caused by these video games. Tell me, how does that work? [editline]18th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964476]"If you're saying that insults can offend people then calling someone a cunt and calling someone a doofus should be equally offensive, if you use the same argument then they should both yield the same results" is what you sound like Violence is quite different from sexism. Common sense is probably going to hold you back from punching random people in the streets anyway, and you're not gonna do it just because you played GTA because that'd be retarded. Casual sexism is a thing, on the other hand, and you might just not realize what extent you're using it to. It's much easier to perpetuate or reinforce stereotypes people may already hold than it is to influence someone to lash out violently for no reason.[/QUOTE] why are those ideas indoctrinated without any effort but violent ones are not? You'll have to go a bit further than 'common sense' on that one.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46964617]Look, if video games don't cause violence, which we've proven they don't, can you tell me how and why you believe that sexism, and specifically misogyny is something that IS caused by these video games.[/QUOTE] I don't understand where you're getting at. Violence is something that happens within the video game, whereas the sexism that is being debated is what influences the design process, marketing, story, and resulting community of a video game.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;46964636]I don't understand where you're getting at. Violence is something that happens within the video game, whereas the sexism that is being debated is what influences the design process, marketing, and resulting community of a video game.[/QUOTE] if the ideas inside the game contain "Casual sexism" as was said then what's the difference in terms of how you're interacting with the idea? I don't think you get my point, no.

[QUOTE=MadPro119;46964516]Video games perpetuate and unequal view on gender? How so?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46964536]all I'm hearing from you are a lot of baseless assumptions If you have no evidence to suggest that media "reinforces or perpetuates" sexist thoughts or attitudes, it doesn't matter how obvious you think it is or how much conviction you speak with. You're talking out of your ass.[/QUOTE] Alright, since you guys are so obsessed with statistics: [url=http://www.livescience.com/9696-video-games-lack-female-minority-characters.html]Only 15% of (I'm assuming playable) video game characters are female[/url] [url=http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27824701]The 15% ratio has remained since the 90s even though almost 50% of gamers are female[/url] (yes this is a pretty weird article and also praises Anita but it does have actual data) [quote]the most recent data has shown that only 4% of the main characters in the top 25 selling videogames of 2013 were female.[/quote] [url=http://radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/gamerepresentation.html]Here's somewhat poorly organized page on the same thing, with plenty of statistics[/url] As for other types of media: [url=http://www.womensmediacenter.com/blog/entry/women-missing-from-oscar-nominations]Across all categories, 140 men were nominated at the Oscars vs 35 women (2013)[/url] [url=http://womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/files/2011_Its_a_Mans_World_Exec_Summ.pdf]Only 11% of all clearly identifiable protagonists are female, 78% are male[/url] [url=http://www.salon.com/2012/02/25/the_oscars_woman_problem/]70% of the Oscar awards went to movies starring men (2011)[/url] [quote]The only female-centered movies that appear outside the best actress categories are "The Help" and "Bridesmaids." In the best picture category, there are as many movies about women as there are movies about horses.[/quote]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46964641]if the ideas inside the game contain "Casual sexism" as was said then what's the difference in terms of how you're interacting with the idea? I don't think you get my point, no.[/QUOTE] To make this more clear, witnessing an action in itself does not make you commit the action. Instead, you have to process the concept and reasoning behind an action. If you're playing Doom and shoot an alien, the chances of you picking up a gun and shooting someone is close to none. The story just isn't powerful enough to rewire how you think about things. However, we have a society that is admittedly unbalanced between both men and women. We already have the concept that games are for men, who apparently dominate the market. This idea skews what the game's story and characters will be like. The people working on video games are mostly comprised of men (which I cannot explain with certainty), and the resulting game is focused on men. Because the game is focused on men and is more successful with men, the cycle continues with the "men just like video games better" philosophy. When all of this comes together, it's the conceptual approach to women as a plot device, as a target market, and as an employee that reinforces some of the weird ideas we have with gaming. It's the social environment that is constructed by video games as opposed to the video games itself. I don't want to sound like another Social Justice Warrior. I used to be completely opposed to the whole SJW movement in video games, but reached this conclusion by talking with both my best friend and tons of women in my life.

That's an ENTIRELY different argument than "video games cause sexism" though. [editline]18th January 2015[/editline] Like not even tangentially related.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46964666]That's an ENTIRELY different argument than "video games cause sexism" though. [editline]18th January 2015[/editline] Like not even tangentially related.[/QUOTE] It still can be the cause of sexism. The process of creating, marketing, playing, and forming communities around video games can cause sexism. The content itself plays a part in a greater scheme.

That's an argument about societal norms, not "video games cause sexism"

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46964666]That's an ENTIRELY different argument than "video games cause sexism" though. [editline]18th January 2015[/editline] Like not even tangentially related.[/QUOTE] What? No, of course it's related. It's just a lot less direct than if you say "videogames cause sexism", which is exactly what I explained in one of my posts that you responded to

[QUOTE=wauterboi;46964674]It still can be the cause of sexism. The process of creating, marketing, playing, and forming communities around video games can cause sexism. The content itself plays a part in a greater scheme.[/QUOTE] So you're saying the vast, vast majority of gamers are all incapable of playing games with those ideas in the stories without internalizing all of it? Really?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46964680]So you're saying the vast, vast majority of gamers are all incapable of playing games with those ideas in the stories without internalizing all of it?[/QUOTE] He said "can"

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964677]What? No, of course it's related. It's just a lot less direct than if you say "videogames cause sexism", which is exactly what I explained in one of my posts that you responded to[/QUOTE] No. I'm sorry, but no. Your argument in it's entirity is that society as a whole is run by men and mens current societal ideals are the ones that are most commonly represented. I'm not debating that. I 100% agree, but I also think it's changing. That argument though doesn't at all say "Video games are in their current form are inherently sexist" any more than ALL forms of media are that way. However, I have a problem with that in a way because if you actually took the time to look at the history of video game development, though women haven't been properly represented, which is another thing I agree with you on in that it should change, they have been very pivotal across it's history.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46964675]That's an argument about societal norms, not "video games cause sexism"[/QUOTE] It's arbitrary to suggest that anything causes anything. You can't say religion causes bombings, poverty causes crime, and video games cause sexism because there's intertwining between tons and tons of related problems that contribute to a greater problem. Video games themselves can be a source of sexism, just as children's toys can be a source of sexism. Gender roles are quite hilariously punctuated in some video games. But even then, [I]video games[/I] wouldn't be the problem. It would be the enforcement of gender roles through some game developers. Saying video games cause sexism is like saying fires cause explosions. I'm not too sure if Anita Sarkeesian is suggesting that video games are the only source of sexism, but in my opinion it can be a sign. I don't hate video games, or video game developers, or men, or women or anyone - I just think it's something our society can improve on.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;46964696]It's arbitrary to suggest that anything causes anything. You can't say religion causes bombings, poverty causes crime, and video games cause sexism because there's intertwining between tons and tons of related problems that contribute to a greater problem. Video games themselves can be a source of sexism, just as children's toys can be a source of sexism. Gender roles are quite hilariously punctuated in some video games. But even then, [I]video games[/I] wouldn't be the problem. It would be the enforcement of gender roles through some game developers. Saying video games cause sexism is like saying fires cause explosions. I'm not too sure if Anita Sarkeesian is suggesting that video games are the only source of sexism, but in my opinion it can be a sign. I don't hate video games, or video game developers, or men, or women or anyone - I just think it's something our society can improve on.[/QUOTE] I don't disagree that we should try to fix on these subjects and topics, but Anitas point isn't that ALL video games are sexist, it's that they never accurately represent women, however, if you take all her critiques into account, you can see literally no female character satisfies her unless they align with "sex negative" feminism.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964649]Alright, since you guys are so obsessed with statistics: [url=http://www.livescience.com/9696-video-games-lack-female-minority-characters.html]Only 15% of (I'm assuming playable) video game characters are female[/url] [url=http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27824701]The 15% ratio has remained since the 90s even though almost 50% of gamers are female[/url] (yes this is a pretty weird article and also praises Anita but it does have actual data) [url=http://radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/gamerepresentation.html]Here's somewhat poorly organized page on the same thing, with plenty of statistics[/url] As for other types of media: [url=http://www.womensmediacenter.com/blog/entry/women-missing-from-oscar-nominations]Across all categories, 140 men were nominated at the Oscars vs 35 women (2013)[/url] [url=http://womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/files/2011_Its_a_Mans_World_Exec_Summ.pdf]Only 11% of all clearly identifiable protagonists are female, 78% are male[/url] [url=http://www.salon.com/2012/02/25/the_oscars_woman_problem/]70% of the Oscar awards went to movies starring men (2011)[/url][/QUOTE] 50% of players are women overall guess what happens when you narrow down your analysis to specific genres

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964649]Alright, since you guys are so obsessed with statistics: [url=http://www.livescience.com/9696-video-games-lack-female-minority-characters.html]Only 15% of (I'm assuming playable) video game characters are female[/url] [url=http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27824701]The 15% ratio has remained since the 90s even though almost 50% of gamers are female[/url] (yes this is a pretty weird article and also praises Anita but it does have actual data) [url=http://radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/gamerepresentation.html]Here's somewhat poorly organized page on the same thing, with plenty of statistics[/url] As for other types of media: [url=http://www.womensmediacenter.com/blog/entry/women-missing-from-oscar-nominations]Across all categories, 140 men were nominated at the Oscars vs 35 women (2013)[/url] [url=http://womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/files/2011_Its_a_Mans_World_Exec_Summ.pdf]Only 11% of all clearly identifiable protagonists are female, 78% are male[/url] [url=http://www.salon.com/2012/02/25/the_oscars_woman_problem/]70% of the Oscar awards went to movies starring men (2011)[/url][/QUOTE] And? You've provided us statistics that females are often not done as protagonists or recognized as much as male counterparts in media, yet you fail to provide any facts that the media has caused this by making others sexist through their messages and such. Do you have studies linking the playing of video games with the dislike of women in male minds? Studies that show us why there are more male protagonists than female protagonists? You've made assumptions from statistics assuming correlation must mean causation when several factors could be at play. Game developers who make male protagonists aren't trying to even out a statistic but make a good game and a male protagonist is part of their artistic vision of what their game will be about, there is nothing sexist about that. And if Female Protagonists are disliked why do we have highly successful games like Portal, Mirrors Edge, Bayonetta, and others who feature female protagonist if video games cause men to think less of women?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46964701]I don't disagree that we should try to fix on these subjects and topics, but Anitas point isn't that ALL video games are sexist, it's that they never accurately represent women, however, if you take all her critiques into account, you can see literally no female character satisfies her unless they align with "sex negative" feminism.[/QUOTE] That's definitely where I disagree with the SJW's - reality is boring. There aren't very many video games that portray men OR women realistically, let alone concepts such as death, war, and health.

[QUOTE=Thlis;46964559] So why is it a bad thing to act with independence and assertiveness?[/QUOTE] It isn't?

[QUOTE=wauterboi;46964716]That's definitely where I disagree with the SJW's - reality is boring. There aren't very many video games that portray men OR women realistically, let alone concepts such as death, war, and health.[/QUOTE] though, the occasional game that does deal with it in a more refined or realistic manner is no bad thing either (such as This War of Mine).

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46963420]Look, it's a pretty big jump to go from "guys in male-dominated fields would like to see more chicks around" to "tech jobs mostly controlled by men are welcoming to women". Why? Because it encompasses more than that-- of course a male engineering student would love to be somewhere that's not a sausagefest, but is an employer going to have an open mind when it comes to hiring female workers when he's always been in a "boys club" type of job? Are women gonna have the same opportunities when it comes to their talent being reconized, when most of the successful workers in the market are male? Saying the industry is welcoming to women just because the guys you know in that industry or similar ones would like to be in a classroom or an office with more girls is a HUGE assumption[/QUOTE] All the women I know that work in games have never confided in any issues except for one, and her problem was literally dealt with in a matter of hours. Perhaps you're the one making assumptions.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46964649]Alright, since you guys are so obsessed with statistics: [url=http://www.livescience.com/9696-video-games-lack-female-minority-characters.html]Only 15% of (I'm assuming playable) video game characters are female[/url] [url=http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27824701]The 15% ratio has remained since the 90s even though almost 50% of gamers are female[/url] (yes this is a pretty weird article and also praises Anita but it does have actual data) [url=http://radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/gamerepresentation.html]Here's somewhat poorly organized page on the same thing, with plenty of statistics[/url] As for other types of media: [url=http://www.womensmediacenter.com/blog/entry/women-missing-from-oscar-nominations]Across all categories, 140 men were nominated at the Oscars vs 35 women (2013)[/url] [url=http://womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/files/2011_Its_a_Mans_World_Exec_Summ.pdf]Only 11% of all clearly identifiable protagonists are female, 78% are male[/url] [url=http://www.salon.com/2012/02/25/the_oscars_woman_problem/]70% of the Oscar awards went to movies starring men (2011)[/url][/QUOTE] I just don't see how lacking female protagonists is sexist. Here's an example of what I'm thinking. This is from Games Radar's "Top 25 Best Selling Games of the Last Generation" [url]http://www.gamesradar.com/20-best-selling-games-last-generation/[/url] 25. Gran Turismo 5 - No Gender 24. Super Smash Brothers Brawl - Both Genders 23. Animal Crossing - Both Genders 22. Super Mario Galaxy - [B]Male but god dammit its Mario [/B] 21. Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver - Both Genders 20. Halo 3 - [B]Male but god dammit its John the Master Chief[/B] 19. Brain Age 2 - No Gender 18. World of Warcraft - Both Genders 17. Pokemon Black/White - Both Genders 16. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl - Both Genders 15. Brain Age - No Gender 14. Skyrim - Both Genders 13. Kinect Adventures - Both Genders 12. Wii Fit Plus - Both Genders 11. Wii Fit - Both Genders 10. Mario Kart DS - Both Genders 9. Grand Theft Auto IV - [B]Male[/B] 8. Call of Duty: Black Ops - [B]Male but god dammit, do you want them to make a game about female soldiers in Vietnam?[/B] 7. New Super Mario Bros Wii - [B]Male but god dammit its Mario [/B] 6. Wii Play - Both Genders 5. New Super Mario Bros. - [B]Male but god dammit its Mario [/B] 4. Wii Sports Resort - Both Genders 3. Grand Theft Auto V - [B]Male[/B] 2. Minecraft - Both Genders? No Gender? 1. Mario Kart Wii - Both Genders I don't know if this will illustrate my point well but it all seems blown out of proportion.

[QUOTE=MadPro119;46964845]I just don't see how lacking female protagonists is sexist. Here's an example of what I'm thinking. This is from Games Radar's "Top 25 Best Selling Games of the Last Generation" [url]http://www.gamesradar.com/20-best-selling-games-last-generation/[/url] 25. Gran Turismo 5 - No Gender 24. Super Smash Brothers Brawl - Both Genders 23. Animal Crossing - Both Genders 22. Super Mario Galaxy - [B]Male but god dammit its Mario [/B] 21. Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver - Both Genders 20. Halo 3 - [B]Male but god dammit its John the Master Chief[/B] 19. Brain Age 2 - No Gender 18. World of Warcraft - Both Genders 17. Pokemon Black/White - Both Genders 16. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl - Both Genders 15. Brain Age - No Gender 14. Skyrim - Both Genders 13. Kinect Adventures - Both Genders 12. Wii Fit Plus - Both Genders 11. Wii Fit - Both Genders 10. Mario Kart DS - Both Genders 9. Grand Theft Auto IV - [B]Male[/B] 8. Call of Duty: Black Ops - [B]Male but god dammit, do you want them to make a game about female soldiers in Vietnam?[/B] 7. New Super Mario Bros Wii - [B]Male but god dammit its Mario [/B] 6. Wii Play - Both Genders 5. New Super Mario Bros. - [B]Male but god dammit its Mario [/B] 4. Wii Sports Resort - Both Genders 3. Grand Theft Auto V - [B]Male[/B] 2. Minecraft - Both Genders? No Gender? 1. Mario Kart Wii - Both Genders I don't know if this will illustrate my point well but it all seems blown out of proportion.[/QUOTE] 1. how is a "top 25 games" list representive of the majority of games? and 2. saying "god dammit it's x" doesn't justify shit

[QUOTE=Limed00d;46964854]1. how is a "top 25 games" list representive of the majority of games? and 2. saying "god dammit it's x" doesn't justify shit[/QUOTE] Mario was created in 1981 and a lot of his design decisions were made strictly due to limitations imposed by technology. Women were banned from serving in combat until 2013 in the United States. There are some of your justifications. EDIT: Haha, yes rate me dumb Limed00d for justifying things like you want.

I was specifically trying to question why our train of thought usually points us towards male protagonists. It could be something tame, like how easy it is to relate to our own gender, or a bad quirk in how we view the opposite sex. Could we say the same thing about race? I don't know. I'm throwing these questions up as discussion points, not as a way to antagonize you guys.

[QUOTE=MadPro119;46964904]Mario was created in 1981 and a lot of his design decisions were made strictly due to limitations imposed by technology.[/QUOTE]I didn't really give it thought until now, but that's actually an interesting point. IIRC Mario was given that big bushy mustache specifically because it defined a simple "face" using the fewest amount of pixels possible, avoiding clutter and keeping his sprites easily readable. [editline]12:58[/editline] I would appreciate more new Mario games letting you play as Princess Peach, though. Always found her character and hover mechanics more interesting than the plumber brothers.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;46964947]I was specifically trying to question why our train of thought usually points us towards male protagonists. It could be something tame, like how easy it is to relate to our own gender, or a bad quirk in how we view the opposite sex. Could we say the same thing about race? I don't know. I'm throwing these questions up as discussion points, not as a way to antagonize you guys.[/QUOTE] I believe the reason for this is due to the fact that, in most cases, the story of a game really only serves as a framework to give the gameplay the game offers some context, and therefore it is usually written poorly, relying to much on cliches and tropes (like the fairytale cliche of "saving the princess" that has been used in all kinds of stories for most of human existence) so that the developers can focus on gameplay. Like, Mario needs to jump and run through all these interestingly designed levels and shiz because he has to save the princess. The developers obviously didn't give two shits about coming up with some incredibly deep and complex reason for this, because the focus of the game is on the jumping and running.

[QUOTE=MadPro119;46964904]Mario was created in 1981 and a lot of his design decisions were made strictly due to limitations imposed by technology. Women were banned from serving in combat until 2013 in the United States. There are some of your justifications. EDIT: Haha, yes rate me dumb Limed00d for justifying things like you want.[/QUOTE] none of those answered my first question though and lol why do you care so much about ratings

[QUOTE=Limed00d;46964854]1. how is a "top 25 games" list representive of the majority of games? [/QUOTE] It isn't. Its a representation of popular recent games. I made no claims to the contrary.

If we're going to be talking about games, we need to stick to games that attempt to have a plot as opposed to Mario, which plagued that "Top 25" anyway.

[QUOTE=MadPro119;46964845]I just don't see how lacking female protagonists is sexist. [/QUOTE] it's not necessarily sexist, just means there's a lack of variety. which i still think is a problem. i want to see more games with good and well written female protagonists just because it's something interesting and different, which is important with story-driven stuff.