Anita Sarkeesian bullshitting about how it feels to be a gamergate target - General

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[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970489]Okay, 75%? The majority of the game is based in fiction, you can't argue that.[/QUOTE] It's a semi fictional game, events are made up and characters are made up, but they're made up to fit into an alternate history. You're saying "Well, I don't fucking care what YOU, the CREATORS, wanted to create, I'm saying that you have to put these things in to make this game inclusive". Why? Why can't they make what they want? I'm not against female models in the MP, or female Vietcong or whatever, but the culture of the military in the 1960's being tossed aside to make room for your view is a little bit, well, fucked up. [editline]19th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=xxncxx;46970509]Come the fuck on, its an arcade shooter, why is everyone defending it for "realism" whenever someone mentions women?[/QUOTE] Oh it's just an arcade shooter Oh it's just an RTS oh it's just an RPG this is your argument? Seriously? This is your grand argument about basically enforcing quotas on creative material and creators themselves?

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970500]Yup, zombies have a lot of basis in reality. Remember that outbreak that forced Kennedy into the pentagon in '65? Come the fuck on, its an arcade shooter, why is everyone defending it for "realism" whenever someone mentions women?[/QUOTE] Okay that wasn't even in the main story. Did you even PLAY it? This is a really dumb argument, quota's fix nothing.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970500]Yup, zombies have a lot of basis in reality. Remember that outbreak that forced Kennedy into the pentagon in '65? Come the fuck on, its an arcade shooter, why is everyone defending it for "realism" whenever someone mentions women?[/QUOTE] Jesus christ do you understand how much strawmanning you're doing right now? Oh it's an arcade shooter, therefore, it can't have a story, it can't have any historical elements, it just has to be incluuuusive just because!

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46970512]It's a semi fictional game, events are made up and characters are made up, but they're made up to fit into an alternate history. [B]You're saying "Well, I don't fucking care what YOU, the CREATORS, wanted to create, I'm saying that you have to put these things in to make this game inclusive"[/B]. Why? Why can't they make what they want? I'm not against female models in the MP, or female Vietcong or whatever, but the culture of the military in the 1960's being tossed aside to make room for your view is a little bit, well, fucked up. [editline]19th January 2015[/editline] Oh it's just an arcade shooter Oh it's just an RTS oh it's just an RPG this is your argument? Seriously? This is your grand argument about basically enforcing quotas on creative material and creators themselves?[/QUOTE] I've not said anything along these lines at all.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970500]Yup, zombies have a lot of basis in reality. Remember that outbreak that forced Kennedy into the pentagon in '65? Come the fuck on, its an arcade shooter, why is everyone defending it for "realism" whenever someone mentions women?[/QUOTE] Which has nothing to do with the actual Black Ops campaign which is what we were arguing about in the first place. The scarecrow is on fire.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46970521]Jesus christ do you understand how much strawmanning you're doing right now? Oh it's an arcade shooter, therefore, it can't have a story, it can't have any historical elements, it just has to be incluuuusive just because![/QUOTE] I'm asking "why can't it be inclusive?". That's literally all I'm saying. Why can't a fictional game be inclusive. If its fictional, why does it have to be restricted to realistic aspects? It's a fucking video game.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970525]I've not said anything along these lines at all.[/QUOTE] No, why would you LITERALLY say that when you could imply it all the time with every post where you're deriding anyone who dares defend this game and the creative rights that go along with any creative field? You're effectively saying "SO what if it's set in history, you should change the history more to be more inclusive, no matter your intention in the story, who cares, it's just an arcade shooter" like that's a fucking argument.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970532]I'm asking "why can't it be inclusive?". That's literally all I'm saying. Why can't a fictional game be inclusive. If its fictional, why does it have to be restricted to realistic aspects? It's a fucking video game.[/QUOTE] Yeah. It can be. It just doesn't have to be, like jesus man the point is going over your head so far. Were not ruining anybody's life by not including a female in the military in 1960.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970500]Yup, zombies have a lot of basis in reality. Remember that outbreak that forced Kennedy into the pentagon in '65?[/QUOTE] No but I remember the Cold War, McNamara, Kennedy, American foreign policy, the Vietnam War, the Battle of Khe Sahn, the Cuban missile crisis, Castro, the bay of pigs, and Russian cosmodromes. Speaking of that last one, heres a [URL="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Soyuz_expedition_19_launch_pad.jpg"]pic [/URL]that might as well have been the damn concept art for the level. It's oversimplifying to say the game is 100% or 75% or 48.22% realistic on some kind of sliding scale of realism. The details and the plot itself weave in an out of reality but the setting is very much grounded in the 60's, an era where women in the military were almost entirely in administrative duties.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970500]Yup, zombies have a lot of basis in reality. Remember that outbreak that forced Kennedy into the pentagon in '65?[/QUOTE] That is a side game not related to the main campaign, in fact it's funny you mention this because a DLC for more Nazi Zombie content has a female you can play as. Saying not having female soldiers in a time where there were no female soldiers is sexist is just plain wrong, they are making that decision based on history not to oppress woman.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970532]I'm asking "why can't it be inclusive?". That's literally all I'm saying. Why can't a fictional game be inclusive. If its fictional, why does it have to be restricted to realistic aspects? It's a fucking video game.[/QUOTE] Why do stories do anything they do? Why should a story that wants to do something be stopped from doing that because of inclusiveness? That's a form of censorship in its own way. Why can't creators choose what elements of history they want to play with? Why do they have to play with them your way?

[QUOTE=SelfishDragon;46970507]But how have you determined sexism is the cause? Is having a female protagonist criticized in gaming circles? If so how have the games with female leads been successful? Do the people making the male character majority do it because they dislike woman or because they are just simply making a male character. You have the statistics but you have yet to link it to the cause with actual evidence, instead you're making the assumption that it is because of sexism. That conclusion is contradicted by high praise for games like Portal, Metroid, Bayonetta, and many more. I even know several males who choose to make female characters in games that allow you to be either gender.[/QUOTE] sexism is the cause because one gender gets an unfair amount of representation, like, what other possible reason would you have for that if people aren't making a conscious choice to include male lead characters instead of females then is it just a coincidence that over 80% of games are male centered? really?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46970549]sexism is the cause because one gender gets an unfair amount of representation, like, what other possible reason would you have for that if people aren't making a conscious choice to include male lead characters instead of females then is it just a coincidence that over 80% of games are male centered? really?[/QUOTE] In a mostly male consumer base, it's better to look at the source of less females playing videogames rather then why there are less females in lead positions.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46970549]sexism is the cause because one gender gets an unfair amount of representation, like, what other possible reason would you have for that if people aren't making a conscious choice to include male lead characters instead of females then is it just a coincidence that over 80% of games are male centered? really?[/QUOTE] So if a game wanted to set itself in say, 1950's new york in an italian mob, should that game be forced to include say, a black woman for the sake of inclusiveness, not just as an npc, but as a main character, should that be shoehorned in over "inclusiveness"? As far as I can tell, you guys are saying "Yeah, it should be like that, why would the creators want to just create a white guy in any story?"

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46970544]Why do stories do anything they do? Why should a story that wants to do something be stopped from doing that because of inclusiveness? That's a form of censorship in its own way. Why can't creators choose what elements of history they want to play with? Why do they have to play with them your way?[/QUOTE] You're terribly misrepresenting my argument by assuming that I want to force people to be inclusive. Again, I have never implied that.

- I was wrong! - [QUOTE=xxncxx;46970572]You're terribly misrepresenting my argument by assuming that I want to force people to be inclusive. Again, I have never implied that.[/QUOTE] Yes you did. Your original post says that games have no reason to not include females in 1960. They do. Read your post again and the one your replying too.

I want more women in gaming and in games themselves, I have no problem playing female characters. I enjoy it quite immensely. But I DON'T under any circumstances believe that creators should be forced to include them in any game, regardless of the context, or should be forced to change the context to include them You're stealing their creative freedom when you do that. But who cares right?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46970549]sexism is the cause because one gender gets an unfair amount of representation, like, what other possible reason would you have for that if people aren't making a conscious choice to include male lead characters instead of females then is it just a coincidence that over 80% of games are male centered? really?[/QUOTE] So what is the conclusion? If I want to make a game about World War 2 American fighter pilots, one of them has to be a woman until we reach 50/50? A Civil War game where every 5th soldier in the line is a woman? If you take out historically accurate war games (or historically accurate games fullstop) how high is the percentage then?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46970575]I want more women in gaming and in games themselves, I have no problem playing female characters. I enjoy it quite immensely. But I DON'T under any circumstances believe that creators should be forced to include them in any game, regardless of the context, or should be forced to change the context to include them You're stealing their creative freedom when you do that. But who cares right?[/QUOTE] You've been spouting this same thing over and over but yet no one has even said what you're arguing against...

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970572]You're terribly misrepresenting my argument by assuming that I want to force people to be inclusive. Again, I have never implied that.[/QUOTE] Then what are you saying? That they're terrible people for not having been inclusive on their own terms? That they're bad at their jobs because they're not creating stories and contexts and worlds that ARE inclusive just for the sake of it? WHAT are you implying if not to say that you want people to be inclusive in all contexts regardless of whether a story calls for it or not?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46970564]So if a game wanted to set itself in say, 1950's new york in an italian mob, should that game be forced to include say, a black woman for the sake of inclusiveness, not just as an npc, but as a main character, should that be shoehorned in over "inclusiveness"? As far as I can tell, you guys are saying "Yeah, it should be like that, why would the creators want to just create a white guy in any story?"[/QUOTE] no, i agree that not all games NEED female characters, especially not somewhat realistic games based on history, but even ones in a modern or completely fictional setting still choose to go with the "default" white guy

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970581]You've been spouting this same thing over and over but yet no one has even said what you're arguing against...[/QUOTE] No. I'm sorry, but stop being thick about this. You're saying in no uncertain terms "Why didn't they just add women to a game that didn't have the context for them being there in the first place? It's fictional, why can't they just change their story more?"

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46970575]I want more women in gaming and in games themselves, I have no problem playing female characters. I enjoy it quite immensely. But I DON'T under any circumstances believe that creators should be forced to include them in any game, regardless of the context, or should be forced to change the context to include them You're stealing their creative freedom when you do that. But who cares right?[/QUOTE] Yeah I have no problem playing an FPS based in the Cold War where you play as a female who stealths around or shoots the shit out of things as long as it's a fun game. There just hasn't really been a good argument put forward for why Black Ops specifically needs to reach this arbitrary level of inclusiveness that would coincidentally damage the consistency of the games setting.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46970585]no, i agree that not all games NEED female characters, especially not somewhat realistic games based on history, but even ones in a modern or completely fictional setting still choose to go with the "default" white guy[/QUOTE] And again, I don't agree with that either, it's not like we need all of them to be white guys, the main character in black ops could easily be black, it wouldn't matter to me, I support that. Black people weren't barred from the military in the time frame they're playing with. [editline]19th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Raidyr;46970590]Yeah I have no problem playing an FPS based in the Cold War where you play as a female who stealths around or shoots the shit out of things as long as it's a fun game. There just hasn't really been a good argument put forward for why Black Ops specifically needs to reach this arbitrary level of inclusiveness that would coincidentally damage the consistency of the games setting.[/QUOTE] One of the best games of all time for me is No One Lives Forever which does exactly that. I have no problem with that.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46970585]no, i agree that not all games NEED female characters, especially not somewhat realistic games based on history, but even ones in a modern or completely fictional setting still choose to go with the "default" white guy[/QUOTE] Acceptable argument. Sure, some men should write about more females in modern games. I don't see why not - oh wait, it's not the game dev's who are doing it, as a post above us delightfully proved, it's the main publishers decision's that they think a female lead will sell less. The same guys responsible for all of this in the long run anyways.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46970585]no, i agree that not all games NEED female characters, especially not somewhat realistic games based on history, but even ones in a modern or completely fictional setting still choose to go with the "default" white guy[/QUOTE] What if someone wants to make a video game about a white guy? I get that sometimes characters can be boring (WatchDog's Aiden Pearce is everything that is wrong with modern character design) but I don't think the solution is stifling creativity amongst existing developers but encouraging others to branch out and make their own games. Maybe the problem isn't that Black Ops doesn't have enough females but rather not enough people are willing to make games in Black Ops vein (1960's Cold War era action games) that happen to cast the player as a female or give them female squad members. When you start your own game from the ground up you can take creative license of it which lets you subvert the more realistic tone that a historical Call of Duty might take.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46970282]Yeah but Black Ops is fiction, so why is that a legitimate justification?[/QUOTE] Here. Have a look at your own god damn words and tell me this doesn't just scream "Change the story more because you should change the story more because inclusiveness is better than anything you could want from your own stories".

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46970606]Here. Have a look at your own god damn words and tell me this doesn't just scream "Change the story more because you should change the story more because inclusiveness is better than anything you could want from your own stories".[/QUOTE] What is "creative freedom"

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46970431]You fight Vietcong in the game so maybe the chance to arbitrarily replace a few models with women but I'm not sure that would add much to the experience.[/QUOTE] that could have been pretty cool tbh, get some brief in-mission dialogue about the characters' Full Metal Jacket-esque reactions to the concept to add some depth to them and the conflict they're fighting in. probably would have been very hamfisted but black ops had a lot of guts for a CoD game