A person with Down Syndrome on Abortion. "Let's pursue answers and not Final Solutions" - General

[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;52829080]I didn't ask the question and I don't care about the specific scenario it presents, what I [I]do[/I] care about is how valuable Tudd (or anyone who is agreeing with him) finds unborn fetuses compared to living children or adults.[/QUOTE] I am starting to think now that more science comes out that around a few months (Certain vital signs, brainwave activity, and other developmental stages) where the line should stop for being able to get an abortion. Otherwise I am ok with Abortions existing, but I think some people take it way too lightly morally, and would ideally hope people only use it for exceptional cases. This topic is easily my most ever-changing one though. [editline]27th October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;52829137]I watched for ten minutes. Does he ever actually get to his point? Next time write out the response. An hour long video with this sanctimonious prick isn't an answer. Especially when you append some bullshit like "these aren't REAALLLLLLY my opinions, buuuut"[/QUOTE] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1583686&p=52829072&viewfull=1#post52829072]Butre[/url] did a really good job laying out the points of the video already. So I am not really sure after the video and Butre pointing it out if you will get them if I reiterate it, but the video does have points. You just might not agree with it.

I find it strange that people so concerned with fetal life have no problem eating meat. There's definitely suffering, and you're killing a much more conscious life than a clump of cells.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52829404]I am starting to think now that more science comes out that around a few months (Certain vital signs, brainwave activity, and other developmental stages) where the line should stop for being able to get an abortion. Otherwise I am ok with Abortions existing, but I think some people take it way too lightly morally, and would ideally hope people only use it for exceptional cases. This topic is easily my most ever-changing one though. [editline]27th October 2017[/editline] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1583686&p=52829072&viewfull=1#post52829072]Butre[/url] did a really good job laying out the points of the video already. So I am not really sure after the video and Butre pointing it out if you will get them if I reiterate it, but the video does have points. You just might not agree with it.[/QUOTE] You do know a lot of that science is around? I learned a lot of that stuff in human reproduction biology and honestly you can google most of that stuff. Also, third trimester abortions are not legal unless in extremely rare cases so there is already an established line. Instead of listening to Ben Shapiro, a self proclaimed virgin, just read up on some actual human repro.

I like that in that video ben shapiro ends up talking for a million years instead of answering the question just like the strange twitter man said he would.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52829404]I am starting to think now that more science comes out that around a few months (Certain vital signs, brainwave activity, and other developmental stages) where the line should stop for being able to get an abortion.[/QUOTE] What science? [QUOTE=Tudd;52829404]Otherwise I am ok with Abortions existing, but I think some people take it way too lightly morally, and would ideally hope people only use it for exceptional cases.[/QUOTE] I mean it's not like abortions are enjoyable. The pro-choice movement isn't about making moral light of abortions. I think abortions are terrible and should only be done in exceptional cases. But I don't think the state should make abortion illegal unless it's backed up with scientific, observation-based arguments combined with a solid moral framework, neither of which are priorities for the pro-life camp, who favors such absurd notions like "life begins at conception" and flimsy, inconsistent morals. I shouldn't even have to touch on the blatant hypocrisy that is the "pro-life" camps almost universal overlap with the camp that wants to cut entitlements and generally lower the access to healthcare and medicines by people who don't bring home enough money. [QUOTE=Tudd;52829404]This topic is easily my most ever-changing one though.[/QUOTE] What causes your opinions to change so much? Have you ever felt like you generally don't care about abortions but because you champion other right-wing causes you feel obligated to favor pro-life arguments? [QUOTE=Tudd;52829404] [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1583686&p=52829072&viewfull=1#post52829072"]Butre[/URL] did a really good job laying out the points of the video already. So I am not really sure after the video and Butre pointing it out if you will get them if I reiterate it, but the video does have points. You just might not agree with it.[/QUOTE] I think his point is that you should have done what butre did and just posted the argument yourself instead of posting an insanely partisan 50 minute video. Ain't no one got time for that.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52829075]Do you actually have the ability to formulate your own arguments? You seem to rely on video clips any time you're pushed for an answer.[/QUOTE] Nah, he's one of the modern day pseudo-intellectuals. All they do is absorb, and push "information". Half the shit he spews is just rehashed, or straight up verbatim statements by people like Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, so on so forth, and then when it comes time to defend them, he either pulls what he did there, or he vanishes.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52829404]I am starting to think now that more science comes out that around a few months (Certain vital signs, brainwave activity, and other developmental stages) where the line should stop for being able to get an abortion. Otherwise I am ok with Abortions existing, but I think some people take it way too lightly morally, and would ideally hope people only use it for exceptional cases. This topic is easily my most ever-changing one though. [editline]27th October 2017[/editline] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1583686&p=52829072&viewfull=1#post52829072]Butre[/url] did a really good job laying out the points of the video already. So I am not really sure after the video and Butre pointing it out if you will get them if I reiterate it, but the video does have points. You just might not agree with it.[/QUOTE] Butre actually engaged and answered legitimate questions too. Maybe you should try being more like him? Like we may disagree on the topic but at least he was willing to come down to the real world with me and we got some legitimate questions asked and answered between us. We had a real dialogue in the end when we cut all the bullshit and got down to it. Unlike your contributions to this thread which have been completely unproductive and lead to literally nothing but more garbage being heaped into the dumpster fire.

There's a good chance the person in the video didn't even write that speech. A person with down syndrome has the mental capacity of an 8 year old. He was probably just given the text and told to read it. This is just some dishonest bullshit by anti-abortion zealots.

Damn, the comments on this video. Early on he says he has the most experience living with Down Syndrome. My question would be if he knows what it is like to raise a child with such a disease. And no, having it does not make you an expert on how you raise a child with that. The mental, emotional and financial drain which you potentially have for life or just for 25years. Quitting your job to make time for the new 24/7 job. The uncertainty if your child will ever be self sufficient. It is just a horrible thing that in my opinion no parent should be forced to endure when they can avoid that in our time. In many cases it can ruin two peoples life, career and relationship. Abortions up to a certain point are in my opinion no moral question and should be allowed to do by the parents.

Honestly that's another point that I think we sort of glossed over which was the blatant exploitation of someone with a mental disability that a lot of the time means that they are probably safe to be assumed to be without the critical thinking skills to understand the actual consequences and finer details relating to the concept of abortion. Pretty scummy tbh.

if abortion was more legalized, we wouldn't have facepunch. :) I'm kidding, fuck children

in the running for longest post I ever made: [QUOTE=Baconator 7;52829151]whats your response to that then[/QUOTE] I don't see how not using a condom is the child's fault [QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;52829163]Thank you. Now I think we find a lot of common ground on the last point there so lets talk about that. The thing is pro life people, and maybe this is your opinion too, are often in my experience very anti-contraception. I personally think that doing what we can, such as providing subsidised or free contraception is important to this problem. It makes sense that avoiding the situation as much as possible where we have to make these morally uncomfortable decisions would be the right thing to do, but a lot of pro choice people seem to be so against it. What do you think?[/QUOTE] anti-contraception people are tards and there's no two ways about it. providing subsidized/free contraception is a little communist for my tastes but I do think that safe sex should be hammered in in schools a lot harder than it currently is. I had a fucking nun of all people for sex ed and I definitely think she was not just a step, but a full on olympic long jumper in the wrong direction. she was a smart woman, I'll give her that, but not in a way that's beneficial to the development of an eighth grader. [QUOTE=Nautsabes;52829192]all babies should be aborted before birth and save the planet[/QUOTE] yes i agree pls visit vhemt.org for more details [QUOTE=awcmon;52829245]When I was being born the doctor told my parents I had a high chance of having downs and my parents had to decide whether they were going to abort me or not Obviously they didn't and luckily I didn't have downs. It doesn't mean anything but if I actually did have downs I'd rather have been aborted than be a burden to my family. Like I'm not trying to apply this view to anybody else or anything, it's just this thread reminded me of it and I just felt like sharing.[/QUOTE] this here is a pretty good example of why not to abort babies that might have downs. sorry if you feel like I'm twisting your anecdote but doctors are human and don't come up with the right answer 100% of the time [QUOTE=Snickerdoodle;52829255]I need a source on sufficient brain function at 22 days because literally everything I've studied in terms of child psychology has said that the brain only makes the neural connections needed to actually function as a brain way later than 22 days Usually it's said that the neurons start making connections to become synapses about 2 months in[/QUOTE] at 22 days it's not necessarily human life, but life nonetheless. supporting a beating heart is more complicated than your average sea sponge can figure out but I'm not advocating spongicide either [QUOTE=Samson0722;52829278]Ugh I hate this topic so fucking much. It's so split. People on both sides are trying to be good people, but just in different ways. Pro Choice is looking at the practicality of it, and dismissing the supposed morality and looking at the pros for a mother who isn't ready for motherhood, and the problems that come with having a baby. Pro Life is looking at the overall morality of it, and keep thinking about the baby that is being killed. They think about the little balls of joy that they see around them and they correlate that with the baby. They look at it as a huge moral conundrum and think that when you kill a baby, it's akin to murdering a potential person. Both of them are trying to do right, but with different views about the problem. Both have pros and both have cons. And people just persecute the other views as they see fit because you're either a baby killer or a backwards bible thumping redneck.[/QUOTE] there's a happy medium, but a massive chunk of people are too dumb to find it [QUOTE=Nautsabes;52829349]my mother considered aborting me i wish she had[/QUOTE] me too jk youre cool enough to not be aborted [QUOTE=Baconator 7;52829380]well to be quite frank, you're assuming that i said you can't euthanize grown people under the proper circumstances. you can draw whatever lines you want, but there's a huge difference between an unborn child and a grown adult. and personally, if i was in a coma for more than a few days i'd be okay with being euthanized, but that's a different matter entirely. comparing a person in a coma to a fetus in the womb is like comparing a burning building to abortion. anyway, i never said it's okay to abort a child because it can't live on its own. the point is that butre brought up a completely garbage point which i refuted by saying that contrary to what he/she/they/it said, no, a developing fetus at 22 days cannot in fact live on its own and is thus not "its own life." i never said it's okay to kill non-self-reliant people, which is why [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1583686&p=52828924&viewfull=1#post52828924]earlier when that one dude was talking about eugenics[/url] i only said that people with down's syndrome should be aborted, not that children and adults with down's syndrome should be euthanized. frank stephen's holocaust comparison would be much more apt if he were talking about the topic of exterminating adults with down's syndrome, not when he's talking about a technically-but-not-really living clump of cells inside of a woman. there's also a difference between a prospective special child being a burden on their family and a person in a coma being a burden on their family. you're right, the person in a coma may wake up from it. a person with down's syndrome will never "wake up from it." they might live a happy life, but they will never be fully independent, and imo it's enabling suffering for both the afflicted child and the people around them if a mother [i]doesn't[/i] abort said child (though of course it's her choice whether or not she does, and neither you nor i can tell her otherwise). and so going back to the topic of abortion, what's the point in having the child if they're never going to be normal? why not abort it and try again? got a condition where any child you have will be special? try adopting one instead! EDIT: and as an amendment to this, the point of saying that the child isn't "alive" is that it doesn't have the capacity to choose whether or not it will be born (it has no capacity to do anything, really), and that it is part of the mother's body and so the mother is rightfully the one to choose whether or not to go through with its' birth.[/QUOTE] are you sure you'd be ok with being euthanized? we still don't know a whole lot about what's going on in a coma. there are plenty of theories that say that in a coma you'd be at least semi-conscious. there are lots of organisms that can't live on their own. we usually call them parasites, but in the case of a child we typically call them john or suzie if they live a happy life, how is that suffering for the afflicted child? also a newborn doesn't have the capacity to do anything more significant than a slug. does that mean you should kill slugs? I sure as fuck hope not [QUOTE=Spacewizard;52829384]You know I think there are some legitimate arguments on the Pro-Life side but people like Ben Shapiro are just so shit at articulating them that the guy with literal down syndrome makes a more convincing argument.[/QUOTE] I do agree that ben shapiro is a pompous ass, but that doesn't make his argument any less valid. you can be a pompous ass and still bring up good points. [QUOTE=Tudd;52829404]I am starting to think now that more science comes out that around a few months (Certain vital signs, brainwave activity, and other developmental stages) where the line should stop for being able to get an abortion. Otherwise I am ok with Abortions existing, but I think some people take it way too lightly morally, and would ideally hope people only use it for exceptional cases. This topic is easily my most ever-changing one though. [editline]27th October 2017[/editline] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1583686&p=52829072&viewfull=1#post52829072]Butre[/url] did a really good job laying out the points of the video already. So I am not really sure after the video and Butre pointing it out if you will get them if I reiterate it, but the video does have points. You just might not agree with it.[/QUOTE] senpai noticed me also its butre theres no capital letters in my name get it right you fuck [QUOTE=omarfr;52829432]I find it strange that people so concerned with fetal life have no problem eating meat. There's definitely suffering, and you're killing a much more conscious life than a clump of cells.[/QUOTE] that's a bit of a non-sequitur kinda sorta in a way. my issue doesn't come with just a clump of cells ie a zygote, but a developed-ish human ie an embryo/fetus. if a race of aliens much smarter than us came to this world I'd have a problem with eating them too. [QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;52829462]Butre actually engaged and answered legitimate questions too. Maybe you should try being more like him? Like we may disagree on the topic but at least he was willing to come down to the real world with me and we got some legitimate questions asked and answered between us. We had a real dialogue in the end when we cut all the bullshit and got down to it. Unlike your contributions to this thread which have been completely unproductive and lead to literally nothing but more garbage being heaped into the dumpster fire.[/QUOTE] thx babe also its butre not fukcin Butre [QUOTE=aydin690;52829466]There's a good chance the person in the video didn't even write that speech. A person with down syndrome has the mental capacity of an 8 year old. He was probably just given the text and told to read it. This is just some dishonest bullshit by anti-abortion zealots.[/QUOTE] a fair possibility, but don't you think it's within the mental capacity of an 8 year old to say "this is fuckin stupid what the fuck" [QUOTE=Mitsuma;52829467]Damn, the comments on this video. Early on he says he has the most experience living with Down Syndrome. My question would be if he knows what it is like to raise a child with such a disease. And no, having it does not make you an expert on how you raise a child with that. The mental, emotional and financial drain which you potentially have for life or just for 25years. Quitting your job to make time for the new 24/7 job. The uncertainty if your child will ever be self sufficient. It is just a horrible thing that in my opinion no parent should be forced to endure when they can avoid that in our time. In many cases it can ruin two peoples life, career and relationship. Abortions up to a certain point are in my opinion no moral question and should be allowed to do by the parents.[/QUOTE] what difference does it make how much experience he has with raising a child with downs syndrome have? he's living with it and that's worth a lot more than "oh i helped a retarded kit once" [QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;52829469]Honestly that's another point that I think we sort of glossed over which was the blatant exploitation of someone with a mental disability that a lot of the time means that they are probably safe to be assumed to be without the critical thinking skills to understand the actual consequences and finer details relating to the concept of abortion. Pretty scummy tbh.[/QUOTE] you severely underestimate children with downs syndrome. my cousin has downs syndrome and he has all sorts of critical thinking skills. not as good as you or I, but by far enough to say "what I'm reading is a load of shit, these people who wrote this are trying to exploit my condition for their own gain"

Having a baby and becoming a parent is an immense commitment that practically changes someone's life do a deep level, if they want to be good parents. Basically for upwards of 20 years you're going to have to sit down, put most of your life aside, and accept the fact you're trading some of your freedom as a person to raise and care for someone else. It's objectively a burden that people need to be in the right mindset to deal with, else they'll do an awful job, and no one wants that. Having an [I]autistic[/I] kid takes that commitment and multiplies it tenfold. Some people who would be totally okay with being parents would never be prepared enough to deal with that. IMO it's unfair and highly immoral to force someone to get through this kinda shit.

[QUOTE=Blazyd;52829313]If you're in a car accident and are in a coma from which you may awake and are on life support, and you're a huge financial and emotional burden to your family dealing with your situation - can I come and shoot you in the head? I mean after all, you'll die without the support of the nurses and the machine so clearly you're not your own life anymore. At what point do you consider something not life-worthy? When it can't breathe on its own? When it can't survive on its own? According to you, I can kill babies after they're born because they can't live on their own. Hell, a lot of adults can't even live on their own without support for medical reasons. I understand your argument, but my point is that when you start drawing lines that aren't at conception, you also draw a line that can be applied to grown humans as well.[/QUOTE] What about birth control that doesn't allow an egg to implant into the uterine wall and what about morning after pills where the egg isn't released at all? Does that fertilized egg have the same rights as a second trimester child? Most people would say no, but at that point we are drawing an arbitrary line. Most things are arbitrary lines though morally speaking. Hell, conception is technically an arbitrary line. You could say it's immoral to get rid of eggs and sperm artificially such as with birth control or spermicides, that is/was the feeling that a lot of religious organizations have.

[QUOTE=butre;52829697]are you sure you'd be ok with being euthanized? we still don't know a whole lot about what's going on in a coma. there are plenty of theories that say that in a coma you'd be at least semi-conscious [/QUOTE] If I was semi-conscious while in a coma, then I definitely would like to be euthanized (assuming chances are that I won't wake up). Although that might be just me.

[QUOTE=butre;52828737](at least up to a certain point, I'm completely aware that very few would argue that an abortion at 8 months 29 days is fine and dandy in any serious capacity)[/QUOTE] I would, because removed from all emotion it is no different from 1 second after conception. A hypothetical life is a hypothetical life. That said, a line needs to be drawn somewhere and as you say most people will not agree with the above, so let's set it reasonably after a clear awareness of conception and let people choose to abort for any reason.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52829404] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1583686&p=52829072&viewfull=1#post52829072]Butre[/url] did a really good job laying out the points of the video already. So I am not really sure after the video and Butre pointing it out if you will get them if I reiterate it, but the video does have points. You just might not agree with it.[/QUOTE] So we will assume Butre's points cover what you want covered with the video. [QUOTE] the gist of the [B]first [/B]point is that there's a difference between a dilemma and an impetus, that on the fly moral decisions aren't necessarily the right decision. the [B]second [/B]is attacking the appeal to emotion used by the argument, where there's a terrified screaming 5 year old girl and a jar of embryos just sitting there. he modifies the argument to add a similar emotional response to the embryos (using the example that it's you're infertile, they're your embryos, and these embryos are the only chance for you to have a child of your own) and states that many if not most would save the embryos at this point, looking back to the first point. the [B]third [/B]point is criticizing that the argument makes it a black and white binary decision, that it suggests that if you'd save the 5 year old you must think embryos are worthless, when all it means is that you think they have less worth than the 5 year old. [/QUOTE] 1.)It isn't difficult to make the moral decision on the fly, but this isn't on the fly. You have the time to think about it. Just like the trolley dilemma, you have time to think. It is option A or option B. 2.)Okay, you are infertile. These are your embryos and you are guaranteed to never conceive again. Option A or option B. It doesn't change the argument in the slightest. 3.)Yes. It is a binary decision. That is the point. If life begins at conception, then 1000 zygotes is the same as 1000 lives. Which has more value? The zygotes are of great value for both sides of the debate. The question at hand is which is MORE valuable to you? All of his suggestions attempt to avoid the question. Exactly like you are doing.

[QUOTE=GunFox;52829801]So we will assume Butre's points cover what you want covered with the video. 1.)It isn't difficult to make the moral decision on the fly, but this isn't on the fly. You have the time to think about it. Just like the trolley dilemma, you have time to think. It is option A or option B. 2.)Okay, you are infertile. These are your embryos and you are guaranteed to never conceive again. Option A or option B. It doesn't change the argument in the slightest. 3.)Yes. It is a binary decision. That is the point. If life begins at conception, then 1000 zygotes is the same as 1000 lives. Which has more value? The zygotes are of great value for both sides of the debate. The question at hand is which is MORE valuable to you? All of his suggestions attempt to avoid the question. Exactly like you are doing.[/QUOTE] a. there's no capital letters in my name 1. it is difficult to make a decision on the fly otherwise this wouldn't be an argument. you don't have sufficient time to make such a decision. a decade isn't long enough 2. is a non argument 3. is completely missing the point. I already said which has more value and I already said what both Ben Shapiro and the entire Catholic doctrine thinks has more value. while I was at it i even threw my own opinion into the mix

Look, you're not a person or a living being until you're 23 weeks in the womb (Arguably, that's just where I draw the line since synapses start firing and I'd consider it close enough to a living life to draw the line there) So until then, I think abortion is fine. And under some circumstances, after, too. Like if the baby is going to die within 3 weeks from some horrible genetic disease or there's a complication with the pregnancy that threatens the mother's life

[QUOTE=TheTalon;52829861]Look, you're not a person or a living being until you're 23 weeks in the womb (Arguably, that's just where I draw the line since synapses start firing and I'd consider it close enough to a living life to draw the line there) So until then, I think abortion is fine. And under some circumstances, after, too. Like if the baby is going to die within 3 weeks from some horrible genetic disease or there's a complication with the pregnancy that threatens the mother's life[/QUOTE] A cockroach is a living life, with more synapses firing than something 23 weeks in the womb. Do we consider cockroaches to be persons? Being alive does not make something a person.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52829874]A cockroach is a living life, with more synapses firing than something 23 weeks in the womb. Do we consider cockroaches to be persons? Being alive does not make something a person.[/QUOTE] I dont consider them a person but I sure as fuck don't kill them. there's a place for cockroaches, it's called outside. any cockroach that ends up inside goes to their place. I don't consider an embryo a person either but I don't kill those either. there's no such thing as an unimportant life

[QUOTE=butre;52829883]I dont consider them a person but I sure as fuck don't kill them. there's a place for cockroaches, it's called outside. any cockroach that ends up inside goes to their place. I don't consider an embryo a person either but I don't kill those either. there's no such thing as an unimportant life[/QUOTE] What about microbes? Insects? Do you refrain from using antibiotics, do you sweep your path to make sure you don't step on any bugs, etc?

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52829874]A cockroach is a living life, with more synapses firing than something 23 weeks in the womb. Do we consider cockroaches to be persons? Being alive does not make something a person.[/QUOTE] this is a poor line of reasoning to try and convince a pro-life person to look at things from a different point of view for one pretty big reason: a cockroach does not and never will become a human. i personally think abortion is fine but i'm under no delusions that it is not snuffing out a human life before it gets a chance to truly live it. people should accept that calling it just a clump of cells is meant to abstract the concept and deflect from the truth that that clump of cells has a very real chance of growing into something with thoughts and feelings, dreams and fears. aborting it while it is still a fetus, before it has ever had a chance to experience life, can be the most merciful option, such as in cases of majorly life-altering birth defects, progeny of traumatic experiences, and inability to properly support a child. however, i feel personally that an abortion got because a person does not want a child yet they have the financial stability to raise a child is one that is really quite selfish.

[QUOTE=butre;52829883]I dont consider them a person but I sure as fuck don't kill them. there's a place for cockroaches, it's called outside. any cockroach that ends up inside goes to their place. I don't consider an embryo a person either but I don't kill those either. there's no such thing as an unimportant life[/QUOTE] The discussion is about whether or not this particular type of life should have the rights of a person. Do you think it morally abhorrent to fumigate a house for example? There's obviously differences in rights for different complexities of organisms (for example you can basically do any kind of testing on ((non-cephelopod)) invertebrates with very little paperwork or ethical considerations, but if you want to do testing on like a dog or a chimp or something you really have to provide an ethical justification). Of all the abortion debates to be had, "literally all life is precious" seems the most ridiculous, because just to exist you need to kill untold numbers of organisms, from bacteria to plants to fungus to animals. If you don't have a more developed criteria for the ethics of killing than "there's no such thing as unimportant life" you might as well just execute the entire human species, or better yet the entire biosphere because there's not an organism on the planet that's not killing to survive, be it through predation, defense systems, natural pesticides, competition, the list could go on forever. [QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52829928]this is a poor line of reasoning to try and convince a pro-life person to look at things from a different point of view for one pretty big reason: a cockroach does not and never will become a human. i personally think abortion is fine but i'm under no delusions that it is not snuffing out a human life before it gets a chance to truly live it. people should accept that calling it just a clump of cells is meant to abstract the concept and deflect from the truth that that clump of cells has a very real chance of growing into something with thoughts and feelings, dreams and fears. aborting it while it is still a fetus, before it has ever had a chance to experience life, can be the most merciful option, such as in cases of majorly life-altering birth defects, progeny of traumatic experiences, and inability to properly support a child. however, i feel personally that an abortion got because a person does not want a child yet they have the financial stability to raise a child is one that is really quite selfish.[/QUOTE] I'm not suggesting that a fetus is equivalent to a cockroach, I'm saying that the argument of "It's alive, therefore it deserves the rights of a person" doesn't hold any water because many things which are alive could not by any stretch be considered persons. Moreover, "it's alive, and it's genetically human, therefore it deserves the rights of a person" doesn't hold much water either, because a braindead person is alive, human, and does not have the rights of a person.

[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;52829901]What about microbes? Insects? Do you refrain from using antibiotics, do you sweep your path to make sure you don't step on any bugs, etc?[/QUOTE] I do avoid killing bugs yes thanks, but they're not human life so its a bit of a non sequitur. [QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52829928]this is a poor line of reasoning to try and convince a pro-life person to look at things from a different point of view for one pretty big reason: a cockroach does not and never will become a human. i personally think abortion is fine but i'm under no delusions that it is not snuffing out a human life before it gets a chance to truly live it. people should accept that calling it just a clump of cells is meant to abstract the concept and deflect from the truth that that clump of cells has a very real chance of growing into something with thoughts and feelings, dreams and fears. aborting it while it is still a fetus, before it has ever had a chance to experience life, can be the most merciful option, such as in cases of majorly life-altering birth defects, progeny of traumatic experiences, and inability to properly support a child. however, i feel personally that an abortion got because a person does not want a child yet they have the financial stability to raise a child is one that is really quite selfish.[/QUOTE] honestly with that line of thinking I don't know how youre not pro life

[QUOTE=butre;52829828]a. there's no capital letters in my name 1. it is difficult to make a decision on the fly otherwise this wouldn't be an argument. you don't have sufficient time to make such a decision. a decade isn't long enough 2. is a non argument 3. is completely missing the point. I already said which has more value and I already said what both Ben Shapiro and the entire Catholic doctrine thinks has more value. while I was at it i even threw my own opinion into the mix[/QUOTE] I am not interested in your position or whatever rules you set forth for your name. That is why I was directing my question towards Tudd.

[QUOTE=GunFox;52829954]I am not interested in your position or whatever rules you set forth for your name. That is why I was directing my question towards Tudd.[/QUOTE] well you kinda quoted me. whatever you intended to do isn't my problem. also I separated my name from the rest of your post for a reason

[QUOTE=butre;52829955]well you kinda quoted me. whatever you intended to do isn't my problem. also I separated my name from the rest of your post for a reason[/QUOTE] Noted.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52829949]I'm not suggesting that a fetus is equivalent to a cockroach, I'm saying that the argument of "It's alive, therefore it deserves the rights of a person" doesn't hold any water because many things which are alive could not by any stretch be considered persons. Moreover, "it's alive, and it's genetically human, therefore it deserves the rights of a person" doesn't hold much water either, because a braindead person is alive, human, and does not have the rights of a person.[/QUOTE] a braindead person is essentially irrecoverable with our current medical science, a corpse kept alive by machines. there is no chance for them to grow into a life. a braindead person in a year will still be braindead if not actually-dead. a fetus, just conceived, would be about a 3 month old baby within a year. while they may both have the same level of brain activity, i do not see them as comparable. [QUOTE=butre;52829953]honestly with that line of thinking I don't know how youre not pro life[/QUOTE] i believe people should have the right to abort so long as they are fully aware of and understand what it is they are actually doing, not obfuscated with abstractions that try to make the pill easier to swallow.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52829874]A cockroach is a living life, with more synapses firing than something 23 weeks in the womb. Do we consider cockroaches to be persons? Being alive does not make something a person.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure a 23 week old baby has more synapse activity than a cockroach