[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738115]
and [B]even if it does have all of those fancy features you claim it has[/B], that doesn't stop some of the glaring issues left over from the h2 engine such as pureblack shadows on random entities or shadows disappearing entirely on some models regardless of distance or the hilariously overdone bump on some assets. basically, more features doesn't automatically mean it's better.
yes "h2 with post-processing" was an exaggeration but the graphical differences are really not as impressive as you make it out to be
[/QUOTE]
Lmao it does, here's slides from the horse's mouth:
[t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/uFt584.png[/t][t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/sbY065.png[/t]
[t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/hXj115.png[/t][t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/2R7345.png[/t][t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/Cyc793.png[/t]
Chief:
[t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/LH5314.png[/t][t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/k6v382.png[/t][t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/rw0356.png[/t][t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/gWp682.png[/t]
HDR:
[t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/P8g392.png[/t]
Overall, it's a completely different rendering pipeline from what H2 used.
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51738416]Lmao it does, here's slides from the horse's mouth:[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it didn't dude, I said even with those features that doesn't mean they're used well
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738115]basically, more features doesn't automatically mean it's better.[/QUOTE]
it's even in your post, don't try to misrepresent my argument
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738467]I didn't say it didn't dude, I said even with those features that doesn't mean they're used well[/QUOTE]
You made it out be like I was lying about the graphical features, which I was not (demonstrably). Whether you think Halo 3 looks better than Halo 2 is up to you, but I assert it looks a fuckload better; and is one of the best looking Xbox 360 games (And even pre-PBR games). This is due to their care for material definition, use of baked lightmaps and photon tracing, and overall approach to their graphics pipeline.
Just because of the beginning of the video I just feel its nessesary to mention the staggering Belive campaign.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40jdpzrpIps[/media]
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51738490]Whether you think Halo 3 looks better than Halo 2 is up to you[/QUOTE]
I never said it looked worse, so
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51738490]This is due to their care for material definition[/QUOTE]
even though most materials in the game look same-y, save for the covenant stuff if only for the different cubemaps
most materials in the game are either completely dull with no highlights or incredibly shiny, that's not really good material definition even if they say it is on their powerpoints
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51738490]use of baked lightmaps and photon tracing[/QUOTE]
better lightmaps are def a plus
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51738490]and overall approach to their graphics pipeline.[/QUOTE]
Which is what I have the biggest issue with.
It's weird to see the company behind Halo CE (which, in my opinion, aged pretty dang well considering) drop so many of the things that CE did right in the graphics department.
For example, CE darkened the diffuse colors of metals in order to bring out the cubemaps, giving a great illusion of metal. This was best seen on the covenant stuff, which relied heavily on cubemaps to convey a reflective and colorful material:
[T]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110509214645/halo/images/a/aa/Elite_major_ce.jpg[/T][T]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/0/09/HCE_Shade.jpg[/T]
and, most iconically, gave the CE Magnum its chrome appearance:
[T]https://yt3.ggpht.com/-jQkmewTHtlY/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAAA/c5aOTpESLzE/s900-c-k-no-mo-rj-c0xffffff/photo.jpg[/T]
This cubemap usage was best used on the outdoor forerunner architecture, where a cubemap with a bright blue upper half and a dark brown lower half gave a good impression that the material was actually made of metal, giving the illusion that the metal was actually reflecting the ground and sky:
[T]https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/445/030/large/sebastian-gomez-5.jpg?1422752573[/T][t]http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090111151713/halo/images/2/27/1219523392_The_Silent_Cartographer_building.JPG[/t][T]http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/9/9a/Forerunnerthingy.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090111151737[/T]
Notice the walls and top-facing surfaces reflecting blue while down-facing surfaces are reflecting brown, using a cubemap to define its color rather than a solid color like metal should.
compared to most of halo 3, which was kind of just solid grey:
[t]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1157/1134933917_16c583110a_o.jpg[/t][T]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070702234916/halo/images/9/94/Epitaph_Interior.jpg[/T]
They had some new cubemap tech in halo 3 where cubemaps can dynamically be swapped in and out based on an object's location, giving semi-accurate reflections throughout a level. If Bungie used their cubemaps to their full potential like they did in CE, then the game really would almost be PBR by today's standards. However, they kept their decision from halo 2 to make cubemaps almost non-existent except for covenant stuff and visors, which only ended up hurting the game's graphical fidelity.
It's not so much that halo 3 looks bad, it's the fact that Bungie had the right idea once and then decided to throw it away for some reason.
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738721]
even though most materials in the game look same-y, save for the covenant stuff if only for the different cubemaps
most materials in the game are either completely dull with no highlights or incredibly shiny, that's not really good material definition even if they say it is on their powerpoints
[/quote]
What you're looking for is what they called 'consistency', meaning materials will respond the same under varying lighting conditions - a core tenant of PBR.
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738721]
It's weird to see the company behind Halo CE (which, in my opinion, aged pretty dang well considering) drop so many of the things that CE did right in the graphics department.
For example, CE darkened the diffuse colors of metals in order to bring out the cubemaps, giving a great illusion of metal. This was best seen on the covenant stuff, which relied heavily on cubemaps to convey a reflective and colorful material:
[T]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110509214645/halo/images/a/aa/Elite_major_ce.jpg[/T][T]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/0/09/HCE_Shade.jpg[/T]
This cubemap usage was best used on the outdoor forerunner architecture, where a cubemap with a bright blue upper half and a dark brown lower half gave a good impression that the material was actually made of metal, giving the illusion that the metal was actually reflecting the ground and sky:
Notice the walls and top-facing surfaces reflecting blue while down-facing surfaces are reflecting brown, using a cubemap to define its color rather than a solid color like metal should.
compared to most of halo 3, which was kind of just solid grey:
[t]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1157/1134933917_16c583110a_o.jpg[/t][T]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070702234916/halo/images/9/94/Epitaph_Interior.jpg[/T]
It's not so much that halo 3 looks bad, it's the fact that Bungie had the right idea once and then decided to throw it away for some reason.[/QUOTE]
Halo 3 [I]has[/I] envmaps, look at the third lighting component in this slide:
[t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/2R7345.png[/t]
And on Chief:
[t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/k6v382.png[/t]
The difference is that instead of being one of only a couple lighting components (diffuse*ambient+specular+env) it's part of a larger physically based BRDF:
[t]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/Cyc793.png[/t]
[URL="https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/h3pcsurfenvmap.webm"]Most surfaces in H3 have an envmap.[/URL]
As for objects changing envmaps, they do that too - there are envmap probes placed through H3 levels, it's easily noticeable on the ghost when it fades from one probe to another:
[vid]https://s.gvid.me/s/2017/01/27/h3pcenvprobe.webm[/vid]
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51738949]What you're looking for is what they called 'consistency', meaning materials will respond the same under varying lighting conditions - a core tenant of PBR.
[/QUOTE]
you know what else is a core tenant of PBR
being physically based
as in realistically resembling real-life materials
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51738949]
Halo 3 [I]has[/I] envmaps[/QUOTE]
I never said it doesn't, are you going to keep doing this
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51738949]
As for objects changing envmaps, they do that too[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738721]
They had some new cubemap tech in halo 3 where cubemaps can dynamically be swapped in and out based on an object's location, giving semi-accurate reflections throughout a level.[/QUOTE]
you've gotta be trolling at this point dude
[editline]27th January 2017[/editline]
ok since you keep regurgitating shit I already said I'll reword my point:
halo 3 doesn't use cubemaps as effectively as halo CE does, and its specular system doesn't make up for it
those slides mean jack shit if the end result is garbage
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738972]you know what else is a core tenant of PBR
being physically based
as in realistically resembling real-life materials
[/QUOTE]
- Halo CE Specular
- PBR
Pick one.
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738972]
you've gotta be trolling at this point dude
[/QUOTE]
Word your posts better? If you mean objects change probes dynamically, then I'm totally in the right, if you mean reflective objects having a probe parented to them, that periodically re-captures, then that's separate. They actually have that in-engine, but disabled it near shipping since it was too expensive to render.
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738972]
ok since you keep regurgitating shit I already said I'll reword my point:
halo 3 doesn't use cubemaps as effectively as halo CE does, and its specular system doesn't make up for it
those slides mean jack shit if the end result is garbage[/QUOTE]
You could've just said you prefer the art style of Halo over Halo 3.
Instead you said something dumb about how Halo 3 is just "Halo 2 with more post processing" and then when I showed you that was wrong, you then shift arguments to how you prefer the Halo CE style.
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51739043]Word your posts better?[/QUOTE]
get some reading comprehension
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51739043]- Halo CE Specular
- PBR
Pick one.[/QUOTE]
I said CE uses cubemaps more effectively than halo 3, what are you even trying to argue here
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51739043]If you mean objects change probes dynamically, then I'm totally in the right[/QUOTE]
you literally said the exact same thing I said without even adding an argument
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51739043]Instead you said some dumb shit about how Halo 3 is just "Halo 2 with more post processing" [/QUOTE]
I said "looks like" but at this point it's pretty obvious you aren't reading
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51739043]you then shift arguments to how you prefer the Halo CE style.[/QUOTE]
I used CE to point out flaws in halo 3
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51739105]get some reading comprehension
I said CE uses cubemaps more effectively than halo 3, what are you even trying to argue here
you literally said the exact same thing I said without even adding an argument
I said "looks like" but at this point it's pretty obvious you aren't reading
I used CE to point out flaws in halo 3[/QUOTE]
Halo 3 looks better than halo 2 by a large margin due to upgraded implementations of all preexisting render technologies + improved shaders.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;51739222]Halo 3 looks better than halo 2 by a large margin due to upgraded implementations of all preexisting render technologies + improved shaders.[/QUOTE]
I never said halo 3 looked worse than halo 2 at any point in this thread, this is the second time I had to say this
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51739232]I never said halo 3 looked worse than halo 2 at any point in this thread, this is the second time I had to say this[/QUOTE]
No but you did say that Halo 3 was just Halo 2 with better post processing effects, which is what he was talking about when he said that Halo 3 looks way better.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;51739512]No but you did say that Halo 3 was just Halo 2 with better post processing effects[/QUOTE]
I said "looks like" and even edited that post immediately afterwards acknowledging that it isn't literally Halo 2
[QUOTE=lxmach1;51738972]
you've gotta be trolling at this point dude
[/QUOTE]
no this entire argument looks valid
if your opening post is an exaggeration, you're not off to a very good start in pursuing a clear argument
[QUOTE=Scratch.;51739673]no this entire argument looks valid
if your opening post is an exaggeration, you're not off to a very good start in pursuing a clear argument[/QUOTE]
tbh i didnt even expect a huge debate over that statement, i was just trying to say halo 3 looks dated enough than an HD rerelease wouldn't be unwelcome
I find halo 3 to still look very good. Especially on the MCC running at 60 frames
I never even owned an Xbox or halo but I was still effected by this. I'd go to my friends house every friday with 2 other buddies and we'd just order pizza and play Halo 3 multiplayer during high schoo timesl. What a magnificent time.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51734575]It was the obnoxious player base from what I recall that caused people to hate it. Plus back then it was pretty much what CoD became shortly after. Little did people back then know how much worse gaming was going to get later though.[/QUOTE]
Throwing SP under the bus for MP also was an incredibly short sighted move. In terms of financial return, giving MP the onus of time and care makes perfect sense, but Halo3's SP was completely shrift in return, and ending a closed cloop pretty huge-in-pop culture trilogy with shortened and phoned in methods probably didn't help things, long term.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
