[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799228]it's too bad we genuinely do not have a system like that.[/QUOTE]
shame[SUB][SUB][SUB]general elections, referendums, byelections...[/SUB][/SUB][/SUB]
[QUOTE=Eltro102;39799239]are you a top ranking CEO of a huge company? or some sort of telepath who can read rich people's minds? you're definitely not a slave as you're paid for your work[/QUOTE]
Paid a 5 thousandth of what the man at the top is paid, even though I work the same hours. Yes yes, he's invested smart, etc. But this leads back to my previous arguments.
[QUOTE=Bazsil;39799206]This. Jesus christ if you provide an essential service to society, you get paid more. Like it or not a CEO is more skilled, valuable, and generally important than some cashier. Equal distribution of wealth is not only a dumb idea, it's downright inhuman. If I take the time to learn and get a job that is important and pays me more, I'm using my money how I goddamn want it. If we functioned in a society where everyone cares for you and takes care of you no matter how much or how little you contribute, we wouldn't be where we are. There will always be poor and rich people as long as there is humanity, no matter how much the poor resent or revolt or rate you Dumb (Hi Deep!), and living in the US there is plenty of opportunity to move up on the social ladder, it just depends on how willing you are to work towards it.[/QUOTE]
is a ceo's job hundreds of times more important than a doctor's job?
[QUOTE=Eltro102;39799239]are you a top ranking CEO of a huge company? or some sort of telepath who can read rich people's minds? you're definitely not a slave as you're paid for your work[/QUOTE]
it's called wage slavery.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799061]yea let's move from a capitalist society to a state capitalist society that will make everything a lot better.
well then we all have the right to steal and exploit then? or is it just the rich who are given that right?[/QUOTE]
They aren't stealing from workers. Underpaying maybe, but the workers signed a contract for those lower wages. Legally the company owes them no more than there set salary. Payment is based on demand, and if your profession isn't in demand, you don't get payed as much. Fair or not, that's how it works.
Also you're acting like people have no other option than to work for low wages, which while in some cases is true, is most often false. There's an infinite number of ways to build yourself to wealth. Some dont even require work, just waiting. Things like investing have the potential to turn meager lumps of cash into a fountain of gold. Hell just yesterday I read a post on here about how one dude made about 140k just by mining for bitcoins. 140k for literally leaving a computer and a program on.
[QUOTE=Eltro102;39799256]shame[SUB][SUB][SUB]general elections, referendums, byelections...[/SUB][/SUB][/SUB][/QUOTE]
you do know those elections are decided by the rich and corporations, right?
[QUOTE=lifehole;39799248]You guys really do think people have no value as human beings and simply have rights and wealth based on how successful they are.
Also, if you had even a rudimentary understanding of sociology/psychology you'd understand that life isn't about work => X = success, it's about being human (which is a vague subject obviously, but it's certainly not about your business ethics.) Not about climbing the economic ladder.[/QUOTE]
no, but climbing the economic ladder is what most people aspire to do because it makes it easier for them to achive their goals. They could renounce their worldy belongings and take up buddhism, but they [I]choose[/I] not to because they see it as being easier to work towards earning more money
[QUOTE=Eltro102;39799256]shame[SUB][SUB][SUB]general elections, referendums, byelections...[/SUB][/SUB][/SUB][/QUOTE]
representation is not a completely efficient system where everyone is educated and get exactly which representative they desire.
The US political system is even more of a joke with this two party thing.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799272]you do know those elections are decided by the rich and corporations, right?[/QUOTE]
yeah, and it's all run by those zionist bastards in the illuminati
Jesus christ, I can't be in this thread anymore. Too many people who think of nothing but the current legal institutions (and fail to realize how they could be changed) and someone's business and investing skills.
I'm outta here, I've been awake for 20 hours now, g'night.
Of course you should make more if you are more successful, but it's gone beyond that. It's so skewed that you make way TOO much for what you do, even if it is a result of successful work or decision making. I don't have any solutions, and I'm not into socialism/communism, but we need to really address the super-insane rich and how much they should really be getting. There are tons of people who deserve more for what they do, like teachers.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799272]you do know those elections are decided by the rich and corporations, right?[/QUOTE]
Haha oh wow.
Now you're being a genuine idiot.
[QUOTE=lifehole;39799323]Jesus christ, I can't be in this thread anymore. Too many people who think of nothing but the current legal institutions (and fail to realize how they could be changed) and someone's business and investing skills.
I'm outta here, I've been awake for 20 hours now, g'night.[/QUOTE]
suggest a different system instead of some vague nebulous "change for the better"
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39799269]They aren't stealing from workers. Underpaying maybe, but the workers signed a contract for those lower wages. Legally the company owes them no more than there set salary. Payment is based on demand, and if your profession isn't in demand, you don't get payed as much. Fair or not, that's how it works. [/quote]
hence why i oppose it. it's coercive by nature. it infringes the natural rights of human beings and should be abolished.
"wage slavery or starvation? that's not a choice, that's a threat!"
[quote]Also you're acting like people have no other option than to work for low wages, which while in some cases is true, is most often false. There's an infinite number of ways to build yourself to wealth. Some dont even require work, just waiting. Things like investing have the potential to turn meager lumps of cash into a fountain of gold. Hell just yesterday I read a post on here about how one dude made about 140k just by mining for bitcoins. 140k for literally leaving a computer and a program on.[/QUOTE]
so what am i supposed to do when i have no money left over after basic expenses? what am i supposed to do when i have no means to get an education?
and for every great story about how investments made someone rich, there are the thousands of stories about how someone lost their savings or assets.
[QUOTE=lifehole;39799248]You guys really do think people have no value as human beings and simply have rights and wealth based on how successful they are.
Also, if you had even a rudimentary understanding of sociology/psychology you'd understand that life isn't about work => X = success, it's about being human (which is a vague subject obviously, but it's certainly not about your business ethics.) Not about climbing the economic ladder.[/QUOTE]
Until you go live in some third world country where you don't have any internet or fancy wingdings title and you could get killed for complaining about the upper class, somewhere where its considered a luxury to have some old TV or ancient looking beat up truck, I'm not going to be able to take your whining seriously at all. Because listening to you bleat about rich people not giving you all their shit means you don't have any rights and no one values your life, you sound like some angsty teenager who just discovered communism in history class.
[QUOTE=Eltro102;39799273]no, but climbing the economic ladder is what most people aspire to do because it makes it easier for them to achive their goals. They could renounce their worldy belongings and take up buddhism, but they [I]choose[/I] not to because they see it as being easier to work towards earning more money[/QUOTE]
The mere fact that the system is so skewed in favor of the few proves that this doesn't work.
[QUOTE=lifehole;39799323]Jesus christ, I can't be in this thread anymore. Too many people who think of nothing but the current legal institutions (and fail to realize how they could be changed) and someone's business and investing skills.
I'm outta here, I've been awake for 20 hours now, g'night.[/QUOTE]
or in other words you are giving in
[QUOTE=Antdawg;39799338]Haha oh wow.
Now you're being a genuine idiot.[/QUOTE]
it's actually completely true. if you haven't realized this you genuinely know nothing about the american electoral system. it's actually not incredibly different than the iranian electoral system that we all like to hate.
[QUOTE=Eltro102;39799339]suggest a different system instead of some vague nebulous "change for the better"[/QUOTE]
I just want people to realize the flaws and say that they're there rather than want things to stay the same and say everything is fine, when it obviously isn't.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799357]it's actually completely true. if you haven't realized this you genuinely know nothing about the american electoral system. it's actually not incredibly different than the iranian electoral system that we all like to hate.[/QUOTE]
So although we like to think the rich and the people who run corporations are associated with Republicans, how come the US has a Democrat as president? How come Australia has a carbon tax when many businesses don't want that?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799342]hence why i oppose it. it's coercive by nature. it infringes the natural rights of human beings and should be abolished.
"wage slavery or starvation? that's not a choice, that's a threat!"[/QUOTE]
so what do you want instead? the worker sets their own wage? the worker controls all they produce? all of the workers are under one umbrella so there is no over or underpaying?
[quote]so what am i supposed to do when i have no money left over after basic expenses? what am i supposed to do when i have no means to get an education?[/quote]
this is why welfare exists
[quote]and for every great story about how investments made someone rich, there are the thousands of stories [U]about how someone lost their savings or assets[/U].[/quote]
because they fucked up, they didn't make the right decisions and do the right research or were just plain unlucky that the market crashed 2 seconds after they bought their shares
[QUOTE=Bazsil;39799348]Until you go live in some third world country where you don't have any internet or fancy wingdings title and you could get killed for complaining about the upper class, somewhere where its considered a luxury to have some old TV or ancient looking beat up truck, I'm not going to be able to take your whining seriously at all. Because listening to you bleat about rich people not giving you all their shit means you don't have any rights and no one values your life, you sound like some angsty teenager who just discovered communism in history class.[/QUOTE]
thanks for complaining/making fun of me instead of facing my argument
[QUOTE=lifehole;39799398]thanks for complaining/making fun of me instead of facing my argument[/QUOTE]
I don't give a shit about your argument because you come off as whiny and shortsighted, acting like you have no rights or liberties and are just a "slave to the system", while ignoring how relatively you totally have it made by living where you do. Why are you on the internet buying hilarious titles when you could be helping buy food for people who are LEGITIMATELY at a disadvantage.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;39799388]So although we like to think the rich and the people who run corporations are associated with Republicans, how come the US has a Democrat as president? How come Australia has a carbon tax when many businesses don't want that?[/QUOTE]
because a lot of people don't realize the democrats are bought out by corporate and financial interests.
[img]http://gulagbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/osor201211041949gb.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Eltro102;39799390]so what do you want instead? the worker sets their own wage? the worker controls all they produce? all of the workers are under one umbrella so there is no over or underpaying?[/quote]
yes. workers own their own workplace and set their own wages democratically.
One of the problems I have with these sorts of videos is that they fail to draw attention to the fact that most of these people's wealth is invested in their companies. Yes, technically they could sell everything and put it all in a bank account, and they would actually have that much. But that's not what happens. While they are obviously still extremely rich, almost all of the money is in the company, and they won't ever see it. This is why I don't find it extremely ludicrous that certain people have billions of dollars - it's not like that's all their personal spending money, it just means they are the head of an incredibly large group of people.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799461]because a lot of people don't realize the democrats are bought out by corporate and financial interests.
[img]http://gulagbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/osor201211041949gb.jpg[/img]
yes. workers own their own workplace and set their own wages democratically.[/QUOTE]
Then it's up to the republicans to provide a better candidate next time and stop trying to appeal to religion and "tradition". Because this election was shit in that either I had to vote into power a candidate who might very well be a stand-in for corporate powers, or vote for someone who is directly selling themselves to a populace that is actively fighting to restrict me and my lifestyle to one of their approval. To me, Obama was definitely the lesser of two evils.
picture related:
[img]http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/s/s/20/media20/2013/Mar/3/LiveLeak-dot-com-30015d334cae-lazy20at20work20lol20funny-1315938887.png.resized.jpg?d5e8cc8eccfb6039332f41f6249e92b06c91b4db65f5e99818bad1944940dbd2252a&ec_rate=200[/img]
This sums up how big companies work. The people who actually get down and dirty earn minimum wage while some cunt sitting behind a desk telling others what to do earns 10x minmum wage.
I'm not waiting for rich people to hand out their money, I dont want it. I do want to see a change in salaries, let ppl who get down and dirty earn more money and those who do desk jobs less. Any 5 year old could replace a desk monkey with a few days of training, but 5 year olds cant lift heavy objects or do road construction.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799342]hence why i oppose it. it's coercive by nature. it infringes the natural rights of human beings and should be abolished.
"wage slavery or starvation? that's not a choice, that's a threat!"
so what am i supposed to do when i have no money left over after basic expenses? what am i supposed to do when i have no means to get an education?
and for every great story about how investments made someone rich, there are the thousands of stories about how someone lost their savings or assets.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry brother, but reality is a cruel mistress. Capitalism is a system with boon-full pros and horrid cons. Despite its problems though, it's the most stable system we got, and it's been going strong for a long time.
You're saying we should change it in favor of a more fair setup, which is an understandable opinion. However, all youre proposing as a replacement is some sort of pseudo "fair" society, with no elaboration of how it should be setup and run other than its "fairer". Sadly enough ideals alone cannot support a society. At the moment capitalism is the best realistic combination of ideals and reality.
[QUOTE=Bazsil;39799510]Then it's up to the republicans to provide a better candidate next time and stop trying to appeal to religion and "tradition". Because this election was shit in that either I had to vote into power a candidate who might very well be a stand-in for corporate powers, or vote for someone who is directly selling themselves to a populace that is actively fighting to restrict me and my lifestyle to one of their approval. To me, Obama was definitely the lesser of two evils.[/QUOTE]
did you completely miss my point? i'm not saying whether republicans or democrats are worse or better(the answer is obvious), i'm saying that both of them are owned and vetted by corporate interests. the choice we have in american politics are the choices that financial and corporate interests in the usa [i]allowed[/i] us to have. this is NOT a democracy, it is a plutocracy.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799591]did you completely miss my point? i'm not saying whether republicans or democrats are worse or better(the answer is obvious), i'm saying that both of them are owned and vetted by corporate interests. the choice we have in american politics are the choices that financial and corporate interests in the usa [i]allowed[/i] us to have. this is NOT a democracy, it is a plutocracy.[/QUOTE]
So, the way it's always been then? This is not a new thing, to the US or to humanity in general.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39799571]I'm sorry brother, but reality is a cruel mistress. Capitalism is a system with boon-full pros and horrid cons. Despite its problems though, it's the most stable system we got, and it's been going strong for a long time. [/quote]
i think the opposite. capitalism is hardly stable, and is only beneficial to the upper classes. the pros do NOT outweigh the cons.
[quote]You're saying we should change it in favor of a more fair setup, which is an understandable opinion. However, all youre proposing as a replacement is some sort of pseudo "fair" society, with no elaboration of how it should be setup and run other than its "fairer". Sadly enough ideals alone cannot support a society. At the moment capitalism is the best realistic combination of ideals and reality.[/QUOTE]
because frankly there are a million different ideologies and a million different theories on how society should be set up in lieu of capitalism. personally i think the idea of self-determination and self-management are the most important aspects, and that other specifics should be decided democratically by different groups of people.
[editline]4th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bazsil;39799634]So, the way it's always been then? This is not a new thing, to the US or to humanity in general.[/QUOTE]
that doesn't mean we should resign ourselves to it.
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