[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799645]
that doesn't mean we should resign ourselves to it.[/QUOTE]
But unfortunately you don't have a choice.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799591]did you completely miss my point? i'm not saying whether republicans or democrats are worse or better(the answer is obvious), i'm saying that both of them are owned and vetted by corporate interests. the choice we have in american politics are the choices that financial and corporate interests in the usa [i]allowed[/i] us to have. this is NOT a democracy, it is a plutocracy.[/QUOTE]
Do you honestly think its realistically possible to have a true democracy? A true democracy would require all of us to be actively involved in the political world, which just isn't feasible. Good luck tallying a whole populations opinion in a realistic timespan.
For that reason the US uses a democratic republic system. To streamline it we vote on officials to support our interests, because we cannot devote the time ourselves. To support our interests we fund corporations and groups to sway the majority to our side.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39799705]Do you honestly think its realistically possible to have a true democracy? A true democracy would require all of us to be actively involved in the political world, which just isn't feasible. Good luck tallying a whole populations opinion in a realistic timespan.
For that reason the US uses a democratic republic system. To streamline it we vote on officials to support our interests, because we cannot devote the time ourselves. To support our interests we fund corporations and groups to sway the majority to our side.[/QUOTE]
The only answer to this predicament is less federal government and more state government. I'm not saying expunge the fed - it's needed for foreign trade, foreign policies, and immigration. But law and taxation should be handled more locally.
[QUOTE=Aetna;39799814]The only answer to this predicament is less federal government and more state government. I'm not saying expunge the fed - it's needed for foreign trade, foreign policies, and immigration. But law and taxation should be handled more locally.[/QUOTE]
anything related to moving inbetween places and housing would need to be relatively universal because people need to be able to go and move states if they don't belong.
But yeah, decentralizing is a good way to increase accuracy of representation. But even with states it's still a far war off from accurate.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799645]i think the opposite. capitalism is hardly stable, and is only beneficial to the upper classes. the pros do NOT outweigh the cons.[/QUOTE]
The evidence says otherwise. In the 300+ years America has been in existence, they have had only one civil war and even still it was fairly civil compared to most other civil wars. The same can't be said for the French Revolution or the Bolshevik Revolution. And not to mention the ensuing chaos after the wars.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;39799973]The evidence says otherwise. In the 300+ years America has been in existence, they have had only one civil war and even still it was fairly civil compared to most other civil wars. The same can't be said for the French Revolution or the Bolshevik Revolution. And not to mention the ensuing chaos after the wars.[/QUOTE]
tell that to the people benefitting so much off capitalism in latin america, china, and southeast asia.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39800006]tell that to the people benefitting so much off capitalism in latin america, china, and southeast asia.[/QUOTE]
What do you think so many East Germans died trying to escape to?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39800006]tell that to the people benefitting so much off capitalism in latin america, china, and southeast asia.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about latin America and southeast asia, but China and its standard of living have definitely been better off since the reforms of the 70s, which coincidentally opened up China's economy and embraced capitalism to a degree.
[QUOTE=Bazsil;39800050]What do you think so many East Germans died trying to escape to?[/QUOTE]
what do you think so many spanish, russians, french, and latin americans died trying to escape?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39800076]what do you think so many spanish, russians, french, and latin americans died trying to escape?[/QUOTE]
For all the whining you do about Capitalism you sure are willing to point out every third world country that takes on a show of Capitalism and gloss over the fact that, i dunno, how many Communist countries are world powers as opposed to Capitalist? How many countries were [i]forcibly[/i] made Communist and then either switched to Capitalism or failed miserably without even making it 100 years?
Relevant to thread
[img]http://i.imgur.com/jDUs4F1.png[/img]
fuck this im moving to canada my friends say its a lot nicer than this shithole
[QUOTE=Bazsil;39800111]For all the whining you do about Capitalism you sure are willing to point out every third world country that takes on a show of Capitalism and gloss over the fact that, i dunno, how many Communist countries are world powers as opposed to Capitalist? How many countries were [i]forcibly[/i] made Communist and then either switched to Capitalism or failed miserably without even making it 100 years?[/QUOTE]
in that case how many countries were forcibly made capitalist and then failed miserably?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39800235]in that case how many countries were forcibly made capitalist and then failed miserably?[/QUOTE]
Can't actually name any off of the top of my head
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39800235]in that case how many countries were forcibly made capitalist and then failed miserably?[/QUOTE]
Pretty much none.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39800381]Pretty much none.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Antdawg;39800298]Can't actually name any off of the top of my head[/QUOTE]
"what do you think so many spanish, russians, french, and latin americans died trying to escape?"
i've told you guys a few already.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;39799023]Maybe you should try moving to the USSR. I heard life is great there.[/QUOTE]
its 2013 youre a little late
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;39798653]A computer can be used to produce. But since you don't believe in the idea of ownership, can I have your stuff?[/QUOTE]
Private vs Personal Property- look it up.
but in addition, you can not "have" my stuff, because in my ideal world, we would all have our own computers. When that is not feasible, then no one will personally own a computer, but everyone will "have" one through the collective common utility. That is, if it is not possible for everyone who wants a computer to have one at their personal disposal, then we shall make computer that we all can use at our leisure, but which no individual owns. Ideally. Realistically, the concept of personal property will need to be applied.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39800835]its 2013 youre a little late[/QUOTE]
That's the joke
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;39801048]That's the joke[/QUOTE]
if the joke makes you look daft its probably not a good joke
[QUOTE=JDB;39800117]Relevant to thread
[img]http://i.imgur.com/jDUs4F1.png[/img]
fuck this im moving to canada my friends say its a lot nicer than this shithole[/QUOTE]
I don't want to be here anymore.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39801088]if the joke makes you look daft its probably not a good joke[/QUOTE]
The point was that if you want to live in a pure communism paradise of your dreams, move to the USSR. Unfortunately, the USSR imploded on itself meaning that a pure communist paradise does not work in reality.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39798981]actually it's not his cash, it is my cash and the cash of every worker in the united states. we are the ones who should decide how it is distributed, not him.[/QUOTE]
Why should you decide how your pay is distributed? You didn't found the company or end up being chosen to lead the company. Sure striking is a valid way to demand a higher wage but in the end I don't see a logical reason as to why a worker should decide what he is paid.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;39801153]The point was that if you want to live in a pure communism paradise of your dreams, move to the USSR[/QUOTE]
was it a joke or a point, i cant even tell at this point
if you think the USSR was anything close to communist, youd have to explain to me why there was a government considering communism is state-less
the west has used the word communist in a way that it pretty much describes any one-party states that declares allegiance to marxism-leninism, even if, like china, they are very VERY obviously not marxist in any way
[QUOTE=Tark;39801113]I don't want to be here anymore.[/QUOTE]
i think we should all get up and run away from america that will fix everything
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;39801153]The point was that if you want to live in a pure communism paradise of your dreams, move to the USSR. Unfortunately, the USSR imploded on itself meaning that a pure communist paradise does not work in reality.[/QUOTE]
Wow what a willfully ignorant statement on the politics of the Soviet Union.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;39800298]Can't actually name any off of the top of my head[/QUOTE]
-Russia- forced into capitalism by failure of USSR and then armed siege on Russian White House by Yeltsin's army. Immediate economic failures that continue today- including massive debt, depression, debt default, high poverty, crime, and illiteracy. Also, capitalist nations sent troops to combat the Red Army in the 1918 civil war.
-Liberia- Colonized by Americans, forced into capitalism by the rule of a minority of American-born or American-descended colonists. Lead to starvation, war, poverty, and dictatorship.
-Nicaragua- first in the 1820s when civil war was ended when an American colonizer, Walker, established himself as president in a falsified election, before being drove out by neighboring countries. Again in 1909, when the US created a revolutionary army, and then later invaded and occupied the country in 1912 until 1933. There was then a 43-year American-backed dictatorship. The Sandinistas, FSLN, took power in a revolution in 1961, and the US spent lots of money selling guns to Iran to fund the Contras, who comitted genocide and massacres in fighting the (democratic) FSLN rule.
-Panama- American-backed military dictatorship took power after the country became strongly socially democratic. When our dictator there- Noriega- stopped being friendly and overstepped the line, we invaded and ousted him.
-America- Indians, enough said.
-Africa- colonization, enough said.
-Colombia- American-backed near-dictatorships and their fascist death squads violently suppressed rioting populists and left-wing groups in 1948 and continue to do the same with two major left-wing guerilla factions in the country.
-Venezuela- United States-backed coup failed against socialist government.
-South America- Monroe Doctrine gave the US full economic and political control over much of South America through much of the 20th century. Pressure from American corporations forced the creation of "banana republics" and influenced politics and leadership. Today, the IMF pressures much of South America into debt, especially those nations with socialist governments.
-Hawaii- Monarchy forcibly overthrown by American business league- the Committee of Safety- and established a provisional government under their control, which was then dissolved and became a capitalist republic, which was then annexed under influence of American business interests.
-Puerto Rico- Ceded the the United States from colonial rule. Established as a de-facto colony and then state.
-Philippines- Established a social democratic government in a successful rebellion against Spain- sought an alliance with America, but was instead invaded almost immediately after gaining independence. A long, brutal war followed, in which massacres were frequent and some argue genocide was practiced. In the end, it was established as an American puppet state until 1948, wherein it became independent.
-Cuba- social democratic, leftist, and near-socialist government freshly independent from Spain is taken control of by an American-backed dictator, who is overthrown by Castro.
-Manchuria and Japan- forced into opium production for Western markets by the Qing Dynasty.
-China- Qing Dynasty invaded by western colonial powers and the US in attempt to control the Chinese economy and somewhat government and institute a pro-western capitalist and colonial system. Forced China into an opium market and to open itself to western businesses.
-Japan- forced to open to Western businesses through force- American ships blockaded Japanese ports.
-Iran- American dictator- the Shah- lead repression and near-dictatorship to enforce Western economies over the ousted left-leaning and democratic government.
And I could go on, if I had the time.
[QUOTE=Dysgalt;39801183]Why should you decide how your pay is distributed? You didn't found the company or end up being chosen to lead the company. Sure striking is a valid way to demand a higher wage but in the end I don't see a logical reason as to why a worker should decide what he is paid.[/QUOTE]
i think the main factor that should matter is who produces. if i produce, whether for profit(in a free market socialist society) or for the common good(communist, parecon, etc.), i should be in control of my own production. there should be no coercion or force exerted either to keep me producing, or to extract value from what i produce.
[editline]5th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;39801153]The point was that if you want to live in a pure communism paradise of your dreams, move to the USSR. Unfortunately, the USSR imploded on itself meaning that a pure communist paradise does not work in reality.[/QUOTE]
the ussr was pure communist
you heard it here first folks.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;39801153]The point was that if you want to live in a pure communism paradise of your dreams, move to the USSR. Unfortunately, the USSR imploded on itself meaning that a pure communist paradise does not work in reality.[/QUOTE]
Even ignoring the fact that the USSR wasn't a pure communist society, this is still a really dumb statement.
"In one case, x happened, therefore in all cases x will happen."
ITTT: Few people know about primitive accumulation.
Relevant article by a Noble Prize winning economist.
[url]http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/56c7e518-bc8f-11e1-a111-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2MdDffU2h[/url]
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;39801153]The point was that if you want to live in a pure communism paradise of your dreams, move to the USSR. Unfortunately, the USSR imploded on itself meaning that a pure communist paradise does not work in reality.[/QUOTE]
how do i history/political theory/politics/economics?
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