• Wealth Inequality in the United States
    196 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;39802074]Even ignoring the fact that the USSR wasn't a pure communist society, this is still a really dumb statement. "In one case, x happened, therefore in all cases x will happen."[/QUOTE] But how do you combat the inevitable fact that some will work harder than others and get annoyed that those that work less still get the same pay?
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;39803306]But how do you combat the inevitable fact that some will work harder than others and get annoyed that those that work less still get the same pay?[/QUOTE] by taking away the concept of pay altogether? this is a problem in a society of scarcity where you are measured by how much you earn as a wage. however, in a society of greater abundance, people would get what they need and want, while being free to pursue their own creative interests. communism hinges on the idea that human beings are naturally drawn to perform creative work, and are happiest when they are allowed to do so under their own control. it is a capitalist society that degrades and demeans the worker by tying their work to some form of payment or compensation, rather than simply allowing them to pursue that work with their own passion. i ask you, would you really want to sit around and watch tv all day if given the chance? would you not want to fulfill yourself with meaningful and creative work? whether it may be programming, art, carpentry, farming, or artisinal work of some sort, most people have an interest in producing something that will better society and lead to a society of surplus.
Here is a crazy idea: We have all the infrastructure up, why don't we just take money out of the equation?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39800006]tell that to the people benefitting so much off capitalism in latin america, china, and southeast asia.[/QUOTE] latin american countries are faring well under capitalism lmao [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] at least, we are in a better situation than 20 years before
[QUOTE=Snord;39803372]latin american countries are faring well under capitalism lmao [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] at least, we are in a better situation than 20 years before[/QUOTE] despite the fact that natives in mexico have effectively been stripped of their land in favor of business interests(reason why ezln declared war on the mexican state) or the union workers murdered by paramilitary groups paid off for by fruit companies? or the coups and wars staged by the usa in the name of multinational business interests?
[QUOTE=Snord;39803372]latin american countries are faring well under capitalism lmao [/QUOTE] crrction some people in latin american countries are faring well under capitalism
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39803410]despite the fact that natives in mexico have effectively been stripped of their land in favor of business interests(reason why ezln declared war on the mexican state) or the union workers murdered by paramilitary groups paid off for by fruit companies? or the coups and wars staged by the usa in the name of multinational business interests?[/QUOTE] Sorry bro, latin america goes beyond mexico. I am glad I don't have to live with the fear of being bombed by some nutjobs fighting in the name of marxism-maoism-leninism, while dealing with the hyperinflation caused by the emission of currency and mediocre government practically closing the international market because of it's inefficiency.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];39798381']I'm entitled to the fate of all that I produce. The only reason that I'm not is because of my position created by the very process by which people usurp the value of production from others. If I chop down a tree, who chopped down the tree? Me. Whose wood is it? Mine. What changes if the axe says "John Smith's Property" on it? Does simply using the owner property of another entitle that person to the product of my labor? "You can borrow my car to get to work, but then I am entitled to all of your wages." Capital does not produce wealth- labor does, and it is labor that produces all wealth. It is questionable, then, how individuals who do not labor, can accumulate the exchange-value equivalent of wealth, which is created only through collective achievement of labor. That is to say- how can Henry Ford own a factory he never built? Because he traded for the resources? but trade produces nothing, it simply is an exchange of goods or entitlements- he still has no factory unless he constructs the thing. His simply trading for the ability to produce a factory, does not produce a thing. He does not make, own, nor produce, the factory. He is irrelevant to the situation, and is capable of producing only through his arbitrary claim on the use of that capital that he gained from exchange of wealth created in the same way.[/QUOTE] But you're selling your labor. How difficult concept is this? I hire you to chop down my trees with my axe. You're not entitled to the wood just because you do it. I planted the trees on my property and now you will chop them down for a salary. Your work isn't worth all the wood. If I buy materials for a house and pay you for building it, who's the one who should own the house, you? Ridiculous. You want your own wood? Grow the trees yourself (or buy them) then buy an axe and chop them down yourself (or hire someone to do it for you).
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39803495]But you're selling your labor. How difficult concept is this? I hire you to chop down my trees with my axe. You're not entitled to the wood just because you do it. I planted the trees on my property and now you will chop them down for a salary. Your work isn't worth all the wood. If I buy materials for a house and pay you for building it, who's the one who should own the house, you? Ridiculous. You want your own wood? Grow the trees yourself (or buy them) then buy an axe and chop them down yourself (or hire someone to do it for you).[/QUOTE] the problem is our society is built so that most of us do not have the means to get the trees, property, or axes. that creates a system where there are a few people with the trees, property, and axes, and the rest of us are forced to sell our labor and reap almost none of the benefits of our labor. i'm sorry, but this is not free enterprise, this is wage slavery.
This thing is heavily skewed, he's mixing up net worth and general income. The United States income inequality is NOT that bad, whatsoever. But net worth of individuals is insanely skewed. Here's the graph he was talking about, which he intentionally changed the words on: [img]https://motherjones.com/files/images/ineqbubbles_040512.gif[/img] [img]http://assets.motherjones.com/politics/2011/inequality-page25_therichest280.png[/img] Even then these graphs are skewed in a way, they group people by income-groups and display their net worth instead of actual income. The average American, not counting the super-rich, makes around $40,000 a year. The average income for the top 1% is $800,000. This is still a massive difference and we should be worried about this, but it's certainly no doomsday scenario like this video is trying to portray. *Another thing to note, which is much more important than income, is what other money do these people get. Most of a CEO's money comes from bonuses, not his salary, as well as other off-hand means. This can skew many income-charts so you have to watch out for these kinds of people. Still keep in note that most CEO's don't work this way either, it's just the super-rich ones (most CEO's aren't that rich, at all).
Oh my god, it took almost 5 pages for someone to clear this out.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;39803306]But how do you combat the inevitable fact that some will work harder than others and get annoyed that those that work less still get the same pay?[/QUOTE] But how do you combat the inevitable fact that some will work just as hard as others and get annoyed that those that work the same amount get paid considerably more?
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;39803539]This thing is heavily skewed, he's mixing up net worth and general income. The United States income inequality is NOT that bad, whatsoever. But net worth of individuals is insanely skewed. Here's the graph he was talking about, which he intentionally changed the words on: Even then these graphs are skewed in a way, they group people by income-groups and display their net worth instead of actual income. The average American, not counting the super-rich, makes around $40,000 a year. The average income for the top 1% is $800,000. This is still a massive difference and we should be worried about this, but it's certainly no doomsday scenario like this video is trying to portray. *Another thing to note, which is much more important than income, is what other money do these people get. Most of a CEO's money comes from bonuses, not his salary, as well as other off-hand means. This can skew many income-charts so you have to watch out for these kinds of people. Still keep in note that most CEO's don't work this way either, it's just the super-rich ones (most CEO's aren't that rich, at all).[/QUOTE] this isn't quite as important when, as you admitted, most of the wealth is centered around a small percentage of the population. in our society capital is power, and our country is controlled by a small group of people who make almost all of our economic and political decisions with almost no public accountability.
[video=youtube;rGDVjYQj-wo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDVjYQj-wo[/video]
[QUOTE=theoneman;39797599]People are so entitled these days, get your own money, your own wealth. Stop acting like you deserve MY money, its mine, not yours...MINE!! If you are poor, then do something about it instead of b*tch and moan. Sitting and complaining about how Bill Gates has more money than you and that you deserve some of it, won't help you financially.[/QUOTE] Let's start up a grocery store toge---annnd it's already out of business because of the Wal Mart across the street.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39803600]this isn't quite as important when, as you admitted, most of the wealth is centered around a small percentage of the population. in our society capital is power, and our country is controlled by a small group of people who make almost all of our economic and political decisions with almost no public accountability.[/QUOTE] Now you're diving into conspiracy theories, that's not what I was getting into lol. They have extreme wealth, but they're just like any other American. My uncle is a multimillionaire and he fits into the top 1%, he's not manipulating any political system or anything, he's just making a lot of fucking money and not using it. Now of course I'm not saying that [i]nobody[/i] does it, but the fact simply stands that most of them don't. If I gave you a billion dollars right now, would you use it to control any aspect of our political society? If so, then you're one conniving bastard. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] Another thing to note, they have political power, just not as much as you're putting it. They're called lobbyists. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] Also, another thing to note, the people you want to be worrying about aren't actually the top 1% either, it's the top quarter or less percentile. Those are the multibillionaires that actually do run the shit in the US (namely the Koch brothers [evil bastards]).
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;39803738]Now you're diving into conspiracy theories, that's not what I was getting into lol.[/quote] i don't think there's anything conspiratorial about the way big business and the elite exert control over our politics and economy. [quote]They have extreme wealth, but they're just like any other American. My uncle is a multimillionaire and he fits into the top 1%, he's not manipulating any political system or anything, he's just making a lot of fucking money and not using it. Now of course I'm not saying that [i]nobody[/i] does it, but the fact simply stands that most of them don't.[/quote] most of them don't do so directly, or conspire to do it. it's the fact that these companies and investors have so much economic power that simply by their investment choices, they impact policy. this isn't right, and it isn't fair to the rest of us because these guys aren't held accountable. [quote]Another thing to note, they have political power, just not as much as you're putting it. They're called lobbyists.[/quote] not just lobbyists. obama's secretary of treasury: [quote]In June 2006, Lew was named chief operating officer of Citigroup's Alternative Investments unit, a proprietary trading group. The unit he oversaw invested in a hedge fund "that bet on the housing market to collapse."[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Lew#Between_Clinton_and_Obama_tenures[/url] these people are appointed to positions of power in politics. the corporations like citigroup, goldman sachs, and bank of america also help to "vet" our political candidates through campaign contributions, ensuring our only political choices are people who the major financial and corporate institutions in the usa support. our system is corrupted because capitalism gives disproportionate influence to the capitalists. whether they know that they are exerting influence or not, whenever they make a campaign contribution or invest in a shady corporation, they are ensuring that the proletariat has less say over their life. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] also the fact that these ceo's and investors make decisions that can lead to the termination of thousands of employees, or lead to the termination of benefits or pay raises for employees, shows that these guys have a shit load of power over the average person's economic situation with virtually no accountability to the average person.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;39803738]Now you're diving into conspiracy theories, that's not what I was getting into lol. They have extreme wealth, but they're just like any other American. My uncle is a multimillionaire and he fits into the top 1%, he's not manipulating any political system or anything, he's just making a lot of fucking money and not using it. Now of course I'm not saying that [i]nobody[/i] does it, but the fact simply stands that most of them don't. If I gave you a billion dollars right now, would you use it to control any aspect of our political society? If so, then you're one conniving bastard. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] Another thing to note, they have political power, just not as much as you're putting it. They're called lobbyists. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] Also, another thing to note, the people you want to be worrying about aren't actually the top 1% either, it's the top quarter or less percentile. Those are the multibillionaires that actually do run the shit in the US (namely the Koch brothers [evil bastards]).[/QUOTE] Lobbyists are legal bribers, and it is only inherently natural that a system wherein: -the goal is to further your own gains -there is an open governmental process that these two things will interact in a way that is not happy. Every person in Congress today, minus a few exceptions, is rich. Statistically speaking, rich people [I]run[/I] politics. And then other rich people shove money into lobbying to buy out congresspersons. It's no conspiracy, it's only natural: you want conditions wherein you can thrive, so you take advantage of the political process that determines the conditions. This is why the Koch brothers created the damn Tea Party and Monsanto has a Supreme Court justice and the Secretary of Agriculture in their pocket (and at one point on their payroll). I'm not blaming this on capitalism, I'm saying that it's going to happen if you're serious about the game- you try to make the rules, and the ability to do so is handed to you on a platter.
No one mentioned the GINI coefficient yet so here I go. 1 means that all the wealth in a country belongs to one person 0 means everyone has the same. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/GINI_retouched_legend.gif[/img] Go sweden.
[QUOTE=theoneman;39797599]People are so entitled these days, get your own money, your own wealth. Stop acting like you deserve MY money, its mine, not yours...MINE!! If you are poor, then do something about it instead of b*tch and moan. Sitting and complaining about how Bill Gates has more money than you and that you deserve some of it, won't help you financially.[/QUOTE] you're an idiot
[QUOTE=theoneman;39797599]People are so entitled these days, get your own money, your own wealth. Stop acting like you deserve MY money, its mine, not yours...MINE!! If you are poor, then do something about it instead of b*tch and moan. Sitting and complaining about how Bill Gates has more money than you and that you deserve some of it, won't help you financially.[/QUOTE] Clearly you have no idea how things work. I doubt you've ever even had a single job.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39799461] yes. workers own their own workplace [/QUOTE] no the people who bought it originally should own it, the people who risked their money to expand their business and hire more people to work for them [quote]set their own wages democratically.[/quote] and this is the job unions are meant to do [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=TheTalon;39803697]Let's start up a grocery store toge---annnd it's already out of business because of the Wal Mart across the street.[/QUOTE] because people want to buy from a better store? it's not their problem that people don't want to go to your store [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;39803600]this isn't quite as important when, as you admitted, most of the wealth is centered around a small percentage of the population. in our society capital is power, and our country is controlled by a small group of people who make almost all of our economic and political decisions with almost no public accountability.[/QUOTE] because they are [I]normally[/I] the ones who know best, even though they may have a vested intrest int it (which is bad like you said!!) they are still the most capable people to run your country, they are educated and experienced in that field, ideally you would want someone completely unbiased but nobody is, everyone in a position of power will work for their vested interests to an extent
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39803845]most of them don't do so directly, or conspire to do it. it's the fact that these companies and investors have so much economic power that simply by their investment choices, they impact policy. this isn't right, and it isn't fair to the rest of us because these guys aren't held accountable.[/quote] They should be punished for investing just because they're rich? What. You just said they don't even plan on harming anything, it just 'happens'. Who are we to punish someone that's done nothing wrong. [quote] not just lobbyists. obama's secretary of treasury: these people are appointed to positions of power in politics. the corporations like citigroup, goldman sachs, and bank of america also help to "vet" our political candidates through campaign contributions, ensuring our only political choices are people who the major financial and corporate institutions in the usa support. our system is corrupted because capitalism gives disproportionate influence to the capitalists. whether they know that they are exerting influence or not, whenever they make a campaign contribution or invest in a shady corporation, they are ensuring that the proletariat has less say over their life.[/quote] Stop comparing all rich people with banks, those are BANKS. Banks have almost always been corrupt messes at all points in US history, not just today. Don't punish successful business owners just to hurt the banks. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];39804378']Lobbyists are legal bribers, and it is only inherently natural that a system wherein: -the goal is to further your own gains -there is an open governmental process that these two things will interact in a way that is not happy. Every person in Congress today, minus a few exceptions, is rich. Statistically speaking, rich people [I]run[/I] politics. And then other rich people shove money into lobbying to buy out congresspersons. It's no conspiracy, it's only natural: you want conditions wherein you can thrive, so you take advantage of the political process that determines the conditions. This is why the Koch brothers created the damn Tea Party and Monsanto has a Supreme Court justice and the Secretary of Agriculture in their pocket (and at one point on their payroll). I'm not blaming this on capitalism, I'm saying that it's going to happen if you're serious about the game- you try to make the rules, and the ability to do so is handed to you on a platter.[/QUOTE] My father is a lobbyist, he doesn't pay anybody, he just goes to parties and is friends with everybody. He's literally just a politician's drinking buddy. He's there just to make the politician feel better about the company the lobbyist is currently under, but that decision is still entirely up to the politician. My father is also an ex-politician mind you, like most of these lobbyists are. It's not about money in lobbying, it's moreso about who you know. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] The rich have always run politics btw, all throughout US history. It makes no sense putting some poor person in charge, at all. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] And I think the Koch brothers are one of the very few examples of evil fucking rich bastards.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;39808570] The rich have always run politics btw, all throughout US history. It makes no sense putting some poor person in charge, at all.[/QUOTE] this is the one of the dumbest things i have ever read, you've said in your post: rich people should run politics because they have always and poor people are dumb
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;39808570] The rich have always run politics btw, all throughout US history. It makes no sense putting some poor person in charge, at all.[/QUOTE] Because fuck people who are elected to represent OUR views, right. We only want people with money and companies views working for us.
[QUOTE=Eltro102;39808296]no the people who bought it originally should own it, the people who risked their money to expand their business and hire more people to work for them[/quote] i disagree, private property is a form of theft. by allowing capitalists to own the workplace you are exerting tyrannical authority over the workers and stealing the product of their labor. [quote]and this is the job unions are meant to do[/quote] a lot of people believe unions should directly control the workplaces democratically. [quote]because they are [I]normally[/I] the ones who know best, even though they may have a vested intrest int it (which is bad like you said!!) they are still the most capable people to run your country, they are educated and experienced in that field, ideally you would want someone completely unbiased but nobody is, everyone in a position of power will work for their vested interests to an extent[/QUOTE] it doesn't fucking matter who knows best. i want a government that is accountable to ME, and i want a government that I can elect. i do not care how fucking effective your dictator is, i do not want him. [QUOTE=ForgottenKane;39808570]They should be punished for investing just because they're rich? What. You just said they don't even plan on harming anything, it just 'happens'. Who are we to punish someone that's done nothing wrong.[/quote] we don't punish them, we liberate them of their wealth and let them become a normal person. [quote]Stop comparing all rich people with banks, those are BANKS. Banks have almost always been corrupt messes at all points in US history, not just today. Don't punish successful business owners just to hurt the banks.[/quote] banks are made up of people and are invested in by people. also, can you please get me a list of all the wall street bankers who have been arrested for their part in the financial collapse? tia [quote]My father is a lobbyist, he doesn't pay anybody, he just goes to parties and is friends with everybody. He's literally just a politician's drinking buddy. He's there just to make the politician feel better about the company the lobbyist is currently under, but that decision is still entirely up to the politician. My father is also an ex-politician mind you, like most of these lobbyists are. It's not about money in lobbying, it's moreso about who you know.[/quote] your father's job is about bribing politicians to not give a shit about the people who elected them and instead care about the business. your father's job is the toxin that has made our country fascist.
[QUOTE=Eltro102;39808700]this is the one of the dumbest things i have ever read, you've said in your post: rich people should run politics because they have always and poor people are dumb[/QUOTE] Yeah, try having a poor person start a fundraiser. Hint: it doesn't work. Politician's lives run on fundraisers, without them they'd be out of a job. They spend their whole lives doing them, or if they don't they can't advertise themselves and stay in office. [QUOTE=areolop;39808780]Because fuck people who are elected to represent OUR views, right. We only want people with money and companies views working for us.[/QUOTE] How do you know they have companies' views? Just because someone has money doesn't make them inherently evil. Obama, Bill Clinton, and every other democratic president are still fucking rich. Are they all evil people out to get us and for the companies? Fuck no. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;39809273] we don't punish them, we liberate them of their wealth and let them become a normal person. [/quote] You're sounding like the fucking Borg right now, I hope you realize that. It's like money is a disease for you. [quote] banks are made up of people and are invested in by people. also, can you please get me a list of all the wall street bankers who have been arrested for their part in the financial collapse? tia [/quote] Because nothing illegal was done, what are we going to arrest you now because you lost a bet? That's all the stock market is, betting. Get rid of casino's first and then we'll see where we go with this. [quote] your father's job is about bribing politicians to not give a shit about the people who elected them and instead care about the business. your father's job is the toxin that has made our country fascist.[/QUOTE] Okay, NOW I know you're completely off your rocker. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] the united states is now a fascist nation everybody, we can all go home mr yawmwen has enlightened us all lets just ignore north korea over there
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;39809445] You're sounding like the fucking Borg right now, I hope you realize that. It's like money is a disease for you.[/quote] nah inequality and oppression are diseases tho. [quote]Because nothing illegal was done, what are we going to arrest you now because you lost a bet? That's all the stock market is, betting. Get rid of casino's first and then we'll see where we go with this.[/quote] nothing illegal was done yet millions of people lost their homes, savings, and jobs. i don't give a shit what the law says, you prosecute the people responsible for hurting others. [quote]the united states is now a fascist nation everybody, we can all go home mr yawmwen has enlightened us all lets just ignore north korea over there[/QUOTE] fascism is generally characterized by the merger of business and government. in that sense the united states is very close to fascism. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] not to forget all the imperialism and wars that are characteristic of a fascist system.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;39809445]lobbying stuff[/QUOTE] Your father may not be part of this group, but I know for certain that some lobbyists do offer campaign contributions in exchange for favorable legislation for their constituents. I would say that Citizens United v Federal election Commission was far more damaging to our democracy than lobbyists could ever be.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39809273]i disagree, private property is a form of theft. by allowing capitalists to own the workplace you are exerting tyrannical authority over the workers and stealing the product of their labor.[/QUOTE] private property is not a form of theft you are not stealing the product of their labor because they have agreed to exchange their labor for money [quote] a lot of people believe unions should directly control the workplaces democratically. [/quote] then there would be no difference between how it is run now [quote] it doesn't fucking matter who knows best. i want a government that is accountable to ME, and i want a government that I can elect. i do not care how fucking effective your dictator is, i do not want him. [/quote] the government is accountable to you, people elected them. It doesn't matter if they were backed by a unicef or zyklon b inc, you can still choose not to vote for them. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;39809640] fascism is generally characterized by the merger of business and government. in that sense the united states is very close to fascism. [editline]5th March 2013[/editline] not to forget all the imperialism and wars that are characteristic of a fascist system.[/QUOTE] except for the part where you can actually vote for your leader, crazy right?
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