[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;53003893]This isn't so true anymore, they perform more or less at the same level. Honestly, even as a Vive fanboi it's hard to say anything but the Rift to be the defining VR system at the moment. You do get objectively better tracking with the Vive, as well as an easier set up (the vive is very, very easy on your USB ports, only requiring the one, where as the Rift has like three or four all up oh god) but for 800-1000 dollars compared to Rift's smooth 400?
It's no contest. As long as you have that third sensor, don't mind the extra cords and have the extra USB space, Rift is the no-arguments way to go for now.[/QUOTE]
Apart from this my one singular complaint about the Vive are the wands. I love them and I hate them. After about an hour they just become very uncomfortable to hold. I haven't run into any comfort issues with the Oculus Touch, but you're definitely spot on about set up. I set one up for my local community center and I had it up and running in about 10 minutes. Oculus setup isn't really too far off from that either, but it depends on what kind of room you want to use. If you're going for all out room-scale, the Vive setup wins for easiness. Oculus not so much given the clusterfuck of wires. However, I just set up my Oculus sensors on my computer desk which took little time and that has given me a surprisingly wide berth with the space availability, I was honestly surprised.
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;53003863]But if you want a real *game* but you don't want one built from the ground up for VR, don't you just want a regular video game?
Even if it's just a port I fully believe VR titles need to keep pushing our understanding of game design. LA Noire, despite being a port, is the first proper VR singleplayer title with really, [I]really[/I] nice free driving. Fallout 4 needs something like that for it to be praise-worthy, imo. I honestly don't see that much difference between playing Fo4VR and New Vegas running through VorpX. Fallout 4 has [I]very[/I] basic motion control support, but my New Vegas VR has better performance and mods, then better quests and writing to boot. They both balance out to be about the same experience: a 2D game in a VR environment.
I can't understate enough how truly underwhelming Fallout 4 VR is to the vast majority of the VR userbase. It is a very, very enjoyable experience, but only about as enjoyable as Fallout 4 was in the first place.[/QUOTE]
I agree it's a mediocre port, with performance and rendering issues out the butt. But I don't really see anything else they could have added that actually improves the gameplay. Sure, they could have spent a zillion years adding tiny scripted gimmicks, but they aren't really interesting past the initial "oh wow I can do that, it's VR!" factor.
I just want a good game I can come back to, with a lot of content. If you look on forums or Reddit, most VR users just want better performance, not like, being able to stab yourself with a syringe, or something gimmicky like that. What does that really add?
[QUOTE=grob;53003838]My dude the only reason I say this looks fun is because I know what VR games actually play like.
If I hadn't played VR games I might have the same opinion as you.[/QUOTE]
If you know what VR games play like you'd understand the importance of having a game actually be built for VR and not just shoddily ported without having functionality included, can't reload your own guns with anything other than a reload button, barely any interactivity added to the game other than existing prop manipulation and point and click shooting (without properly working scopes) that you can find on any free techdemo out there?
The only games that I've been able to stick my head through the walls and sequencebreak on are F4VR and VRChat n one of them's free.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53003979]I agree it's a mediocre port, with performance and rendering issues out the butt. But I don't really see anything else they could have added that actually improves the gameplay. Sure, they could have spent a zillion years adding tiny scripted gimmicks, but they aren't really interesting past the initial "oh wow I can do that, it's VR!" factor.
I just want a good game I can come back to, with a lot of content. If you look on forums or Reddit, most VR users just want better performance, not like, being able to stab yourself with a syringe, or something gimmicky like that. What does that really add?[/QUOTE]
Why does utilizing VR peripherals count as being gimmicky? Again, if that is the case, why do you even want VR games? These are features that VR has created and has thrived in up until now, why are they considered gimmicks? Why is it ok to ignore them?
Fallout 4 VR is missing three major points, and these, no matter how you look at them, can not be written off as gimmicks. Two handed weapon aiming, interactive reload, and bloody scopes. I'm not pretending that these three traits are the holy qualifier for a "proper VR title", but for a game like Fallout 4? It shows how minimal-effort and how very un-VR friendly the entire experience is. The fact that they couldn't even get scopes working (but modders day 1 could) shows that the game isn't even as complete as it's 2D version, on top of lacking DLC's and the like.
When you add in motion controls, but still make it that EVERYTHING the player does is bound to a button, why aren't you just playing with a controller at that point? If there's no meaningful interaction to be gained from tracked controllers at all, why are they one of the biggest distinctions in modern VR? This line of thinking doesn't make any sense, because if you just want a full game running on VR, download VorpX and enjoy literal dozens. Many people agree this isn't a very good way to enjoy games though, for obvious reasons - they're not made for VR. Just like FO4VR.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53003979]I agree it's a mediocre port, with performance and rendering issues out the butt. But I don't really see anything else they could have added that actually improves the gameplay. Sure, they could have spent a zillion years adding tiny scripted gimmicks, but they aren't really interesting past the initial "oh wow I can do that, it's VR!" factor.
I just want a good game I can come back to, with a lot of content. If you look on forums or Reddit, most VR users just want better performance, not like, being able to stab yourself with a syringe, or something gimmicky like that. What does that really add?[/QUOTE]
its not that its a gimmick, its that it adds small details that slowly add up to create a broader picture of something that has a really detailed layer of features. It creates a game that feels intuitive and natural to play and creates a more immersive experience that you wouldn't have never gotten outside of VR.
This applies especially to games being built from the ground up; When you make the game feel as accurate as you can within the world that it takes place in, you create a far more rich and fulfilling experience that is that much better to play.
Sure, having tons and tons of features don't make a game instantly better, but when you apply them in a way that is logical and you don't have to think about them at all, you just... know they're their by instinct of trying something out, it makes the game far better. Little details add up and create something bigger.
You have a military shooter for example, you parachute down to an area and once you've landed, you get stuck in a tree, what you do is you basically shoot or cut the rope, or you jump around. You could just... press a button, however being able to 'act' it out without being told what to do creates a more enriching experience even when you don't think it does. Having small gameplay details like this outside of VR is important, and in VR its even more important to create something that's not just a roller coaster, but an experience.
VR very much requires for a game to be as simple and intuitive as possible, because its a 1:1 perspective. You will naturally assume something works a certain way and go for it.
[editline]25th December 2017[/editline]
I'll totally agree that maybe Fallout 4 doesn't have much hope for it though. It's fun and VR does enhance it. I'm honestly thinking a Fallout style game would be best off being worked from the ground up as a VR game rather than having it tacked on with the quality of a free update and shitposted onto the steam store like a used condom.
[QUOTE=Louis;53004037]If you know what VR games play like you'd understand the importance of having a game actually be built for VR and not just shoddily ported without having functionality included, can't reload your own guns with anything other than a reload button, barely any interactivity added to the game other than existing prop manipulation and point and click shooting (without properly working scopes) that you can find on any free techdemo out there?
The only games that I've been able to stick my head through the walls and sequencebreak on are F4VR and VRChat n one of them's free.[/QUOTE]
I can tell you haven't actually played it.
I fundamentally disagree. These are still games at their core. If you don’t enjoy Fallout on your flat screen, you won’t enjoy it in VR, and vice versa. Once you get past the honeymoon period, games are games. The cheesy input gimmicks have hugely diminishing returns once you get past the basics. Focus on the core game, not adding cheesy input shit.
As a VR game is really fucking underwhelming, you don't even do anything VR related other than point your right arm to shoot and look around with your head, I was still just sitting down interacting with everything using buttons on a controller, incredibly lazy VR port tbh
The LA Noire game where you actually have a body and all the added VR things you have to physically interact with is how it should have been done, don't bother with fallout
Fallout 4 VR just looks like a cheap rush job to resell the game, and bethesda is just throwing the trash out and waiting for the modding community to fix it and make it actually good. At that point I can't justify spending 60$ on it.
[QUOTE=Xavith;53004397]Fallout 4 VR just looks like a cheap rush job to resell the game, and bethesda is just throwing the trash out and waiting for the modding community to fix it and make it actually good. At that point I can't justify spending 60$ on it.[/QUOTE]
It's really just another rerelease on another platform among thousands of bethesda rereleases.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004230]I fundamentally disagree. These are still games at their core. If you don’t enjoy Fallout on your flat screen, you won’t enjoy it in VR, and vice versa. Once you get past the honeymoon period, games are games. The cheesy input gimmicks have hugely diminishing returns once you get past the basics. Focus on the core game, not adding cheesy input shit.[/QUOTE]
Then I still struggle to see where you're coming from. If you're unwilling to accept that mechanics solely dedicated to VR are anything but "cheesy input shit", then why is Fallout 4 VR even a big deal to you? The [I]furthest[/I] they go is "cheesy input shit", an unwillingness to actually implement core features of VR gameplay makes the entire experience cheesy. You can play the game in VR, with cheesy motion controls that are really just, for the large part, maps of the controller buttons.
I keep going on about this, but the way you seem to enjoy VR games is no different to just loading up VorpX and playing dozens, maybe hundreds of fully fleshed out games in VR. While I personally don't mind doing that, the vast majority of the VR community agree [I]that[/I] is the cheesy gimmick.
Like I said, I think there are diminishing returns once you get past solid hand and head tracking. VorpX is nowhere near as good as a native implementation because there is no hand tracking and head tracking is poor.
Fallout 4 VR is a big deal because it’s a complete, fun game with hand and head tracking, and a readable, immersive UI. Anything else doesn’t fundamentally change the experience and is essentially a motion-activated button. Those gimmicks have a wow-factor for about a week and then you don’t care.
Go on some forums and check out what the majority of people are asking for. Most hardcore users aren’t bummed you can’t rummage through drawers or pet your dog, people just want better performance. Most people’s top recommendations for games are the Doom 3 VR mod and Alien Isolation mod. The Alien Isolation mod doesn’t even have hand tracking.
And the whole, “you have no body!” meme really needs to die. Anyone who’s been remotely following the VR scene knows that solving IK for two hands and a head looks like shit no matter how you cut it and is insanely stupid looking/disorienting. It’s better just to have two floating hands.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004520]Like I said, I think there are diminishing returns once you get past solid [B]hand and head tracking[/B]. VorpX is nowhere near as good as a native implementation because there is no hand tracking and head tracking is poor.
Fallout 4 VR is a big deal because it’s a complete, fun game with hand and head tracking, and a readable, immersive UI.[/QUOTE]
But that's where you lose me. Head tracking in VR was the first step, though many people consider the introduction of hand tracking (and the opening to roomscale gameplay) to be an entirely different beast. Solid hand tracking is so good in VR games [I]because[/I] VR games are designed around using solid hand tracking.
If you just tack on hand tracking into a game but don't [I]do[/I] anything with it, then you've tacked on a gimmick. That is a cheesy gimmick. It doesn't feel natural to play Fallout 4 VR compared to other VR games, and it's extremely apparent when you're shooting your scopeless sniper rifles like handguns.
Do you honestly consider things like interactive reloading and two handed weapons to be just simple gimmicks? If you do, I really have [I]no idea[/I] what you get out of hand tracking in VR games. You seem to think implementing proper VR controls is exclusively superficial stuff like "petting dogs" but you miss [I]so much[/I] of the experience when you ignore the baseline, bare minimum requirements.
[editline]25th December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004520]
And the whole, “you have no body!” meme really needs to die. Anyone who’s been remotely following the VR scene knows that solving IK for two hands and a head looks like shit no matter how you cut it and is insanely stupid looking/disorienting. It’s better just to have two floating hands.[/QUOTE]
No one is [I]really[/I] complaining that Fallout 4 VR doesn't have a body. It wouldn't have improved or diminished the experience, but at the very least it would have shown effort to make Fallout 4 VR an actual VR game. You're right though, it [I]would[/I] be better just to have two floating hands.
Would be cool if Fallout 4 VR had two floating hands, and not literally your steam VR controller skin.
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;53004530]But that's where you lose me. Head tracking in VR was the first step, though many people consider the introduction of hand tracking (and the opening to roomscale gameplay) to be an entirely different beast. Solid hand tracking is so good in VR games [I]because[/I] VR games are designed around using solid hand tracking.
If you just tack on hand tracking into a game but don't [I]do[/I] anything with it, then you've tacked on a gimmick. That is a cheesy gimmick. It doesn't feel natural to play Fallout 4 VR compared to other VR games, and it's extremely apparent when you're shooting your scopeless sniper rifles like handguns.
Do you honestly consider things like interactive reloading and two handed weapons to be just simple gimmicks? If you do, I really have [I]no idea[/I] what you get out of hand tracking in VR[/QUOTE]
Reloading a gun gets tedious for the thousandth time. Honestly, I wish all VR games had a reload button. At some point, work in VR isn’t fun at all. Have you noticed the genre that Job Simulator created died almost instantly after it was created? The tedium-mixed-with-funny-dialogue was tedium at its core, but because it was VR it felt fun (briefly, until people realized they were standing up with their back aching while doing literally nothing interesting). I attribute this to the fact that the game would have been piss boring without VR, and that caught up to it quickly.
There’s nothing fun about reloading a gun by hand, especially in VR. It’s confusing and error prone when you have no tactile sense, and I garuntee you it will be streamlined away at some point. It’s already been simplified massively, from games like Onward doing a reasonable simulation, to more recent (and more popular) games like Pavlov and Art of the Fight having simplified it.
Pointing and shooting a gun is fun. It’s fun on a flat screen and it’s fun in VR. Reloading a gun is boring. It’s boring on a flat screen and it’s boring in VR. The only kind of fun *that lasts* is the kind of fun that’s fun on both.
I agree scopes should be implemented. Sniping is fun on a flat screen and it’s fun in VR.
EDIT: Full-body IK would have made the game worse, as you’d have awkwardly placed pipes attached to your hands jutting out at random angles as you attempt to play. It would please the people watching from YouTube, but otherwise it would have no basis in reality and serve no function other than to be aesthetically displeasing. Maybe it would make you think you had broken your wrists ingame.
annnnnd the disagree ratings I have coming from a gun nut, a guy who doesn’t even own a VR headset, and a guy who’s owned one for about a week. Pretty much confirms what I’m saying. I invite you to go on /r/vive and find someone who isn’t enjoying Fallout 4 because you can’t reload by hand.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004549]
Pointing and shooting a gun is fun. It’s fun on a flat screen and it’s fun in VR. Reloading a gun is boring. [/QUOTE]
I gotta disagree with you on that. Reloading a gun in VR manually is still really cool to me, even after sinking in ~30 or so hours in H3VR (and I'm not even a 'gun nut').
In a flatscreen game, reloading a gun amounts to pressing a button and just waiting for the animation to play out. But reloading in VR is much more involved since you have to do all of those motions yourself, as fast (or as slow) as you want. It's not something that can be emulated properly in a flatscreen game.
I'm not saying simplified/button-press reloads don't have a place in VR, because they work fine for faster paced multiplayer/coop games (Pavlov, Payday 2, ZomDay, etc). But in a single player roleplay game like Fallout 4, a simple reload would just limit my immersion.
[QUOTE=Lolnoob1;53004622]I gotta disagree with you on that. Reloading a gun in VR manually is still really cool to me, even after sinking in ~30 or so hours in H3VR (and I'm not even a 'gun nut').
In a flatscreen game, reloading a gun amounts to pressing a button and just waiting for the animation to play out. But reloading in VR is much more involved since you have to do all of those motions yourself, as fast (or as slow) as you want. It's not something that can be emulated properly in a flatscreen game.
I'm not saying simplified/button-press reloads don't have a place in VR, because they work fine for faster paced multiplayer/coop games (Pavlov, Payday 2, ZomDay, etc). But in a single player roleplay game like Fallout 4, a simple reload would just limit my immersion.[/QUOTE]
A motor function with no variables is pretty fucking boring, dude. I have no clue how you can have fun pulling something out of a gun and sticking it back in, but maybe it takes more than 30 hours. I have literally the max amount of time in VR possible, I’ve owned prerelease devkits that aren’t available for purchase and even created my own hand tracking solutions before they were commercially available. Trust me, at some point it’s just menial labor.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004636]A motor function with no variables is pretty fucking boring, dude. I have no clue how you can have fun pulling something out of a gun and sticking it back in, but maybe it takes more than 30 hours. I have literally the max amount of time in VR possible, I’ve owned prerelease devkits that aren’t available for purchase and even created my own hand tracking solutions before they were commercially available. Trust me, at some point it’s just menial labor.[/QUOTE]
Suit yourself, I guess.
I personally find it fun, and I'm sure plenty of other people do judging from the positive H3VR reviews. Nothing wrong with having different preferences.
[QUOTE=Lolnoob1;53004697]Suit yourself, I guess.
I personally find it fun, and I'm sure plenty of other people do judging from the positive H3VR reviews. Nothing wrong with having different preferences.[/QUOTE]
I [I]really[/I] doubt there is a large number of people regularly revisiting H3VR to play with toy guns unless they are gun fanatics in the first place OR they are new to VR and smitten by the concept.
If you can find a Steam profile that has over 10 hours on the game over the last year, and has had VR for more than 2 years, I'd literally shit bricks. That is to say, VR carries it, until VR is normal for you. At that point, you're just doing a menial task.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004549]
Pointing and shooting a gun is fun. It’s fun on a flat screen and it’s fun in VR. Reloading a gun is boring. It’s boring on a flat screen and it’s boring in VR. [B]The only kind of fun *that lasts* is the kind of fun that’s fun on both.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
I disagree. VR is a new medium. It is not games of old. There [I]are[/I] fun concepts that *last* that only VR can offer. If you honestly disagree with this concept then again, what are you doing avoiding VorpX? From the few games I've played the VR fidelity is more or less the same as Fallout 4 VR offers, sans motion controllers. Motion controllers that are somehow [I]not[/I] gimmicky when implemented as a stand-in for a regular controller, somehow.
You've completely glazed over two handed weapon interaction, which I think is almost as important as an interactive reload. Both features scratch a perpetual itch one has when handling a gun in 3D. The ability to grab it, and interact with a mechanism of it. Reloading isn't meant to be [I]fun,[/I] not all aspects of video games exist to be super fun. What reloading is, is satisfying.
I don't even personally believe interactive reload is needed in all VR shooters, there's so many that succeed without it. It's just one example, among many, of a potential Fallout 4 VR utterly failed to reach.
I honestly find your mindset of "VR games have to be fun in the exact same way 2D games are otherwise they're not real [I]games[/I]" pretty lame. Not only is it super limiting but in this case it's excusing some genuinely upsetting lack of potential. Fallout 4 VR is a fun title to mess around with, but it's not a title I'm exactly busting my headset out to play. I can play the game, more comfortably, offering more or less the exact same experience (at times much, much better) on my regular monitor. It seems to me that the only lasting experience Fallout 4 VR offers is the ability to stand up with an aching back, by your logic.
[quote] I invite you to go on /r/vive and find someone who isn’t enjoying Fallout 4 because you can’t reload by hand.[/quote]
Confusingly enough, /r/vive was actually one of the more vocal communities in regards to Fallout 4 VR's shortcomings. You [I]can[/I] find posts, all over, by people who feel the game is lacking fundamental VR features.
as a side note, I have 40 hours in H3VR, and I wouldn't call myself a gun nut. the actual shooting game modes in it are so insanely simple and repetitive that they're only carried by it's gun interaction mechanics. I've only owned my Vive for a year and a half though, so I might not meet your seemingly arbitrary requirements of a true and honest VR enthusiast.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004747]I [I]really[/I] doubt there is a large number of people regularly revisiting H3VR to play with toy guns unless they are gun fanatics in the first place OR they are new to VR and smitten by the concept.
If you can find a Steam profile that has over 10 hours on the game over the last year, and has had VR for more than 2 years, I'd literally shit bricks. That is to say, VR carries it, until VR is normal for you. At that point, you're just doing a menial task.[/QUOTE]
The developer updates it quite frequently with new gamemodes and guns, so there's plenty of reasons to revisit the game. It's not just a shooting range simulator.
There'd be no point finding a Steam profile that fits your specifications, especially since there's no good way to tell how long they've had VR. The numbers are arbitrary for all I know, because I could just put the standard at 100 hours and having VR for 4 years.
If they're having fun with it, what's the issue?
Edit:
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;53004794]Reloading isn't meant to be [I]fun,[/I] not all aspects of video games exist to be super fun. What reloading is, is satisfying.
[/QUOTE]That's a better way to describe it, now that I think about it.
[QUOTE=Lolnoob1;53004804]The developer updates it quite frequently with new gamemodes and guns, so there's plenty of reasons to revisit the game. It's not just a shooting range simulator.
There'd be no point finding a Steam profile that fits your specifications, especially since there's no good way to tell how long they've had VR. The numbers are arbitrary for all I know, because I could just put the standard at 100 hours and having VR for 4 years.
If they're having fun with it, what's the issue?
Edit:
That's a better way to describe it, now that I think about it.[/QUOTE]
It's not sustainable. You need gameplay to encourage long game sessions, not motion controls.
Eventually, reloading in VR becomes as boring as pressing R. At the core, it's the same. It's a motor function with no variables, nothing interesting about it. But instead of being as easy as pressing R, you have to smash your controllers together and grab imaginary dials and knobs. Once the novelty (or if you're more optimistic, you can call it [I]satisfaction[/I]) wears off, WHICH WILL HAPPEN, it's frustrating and annoying. It's [I]more[/I] cumbersome.
It literally adds nothing of value. What [I]is[/I] valuable is the game itself, the gameplay, the carefully constructed universe and storytelling, AI, gameplay mechanics, countless hours of QA to optimize feedback loops. Motion controls for reloading, stabbing yourself with a syringe, doesn't do [I]anything[/I]. There is no difference between a VR game and a normal game in terms of what's actually [I]fun[/I]. SteamSpy says that the average playtime of a FO4VR is 5 hours. This is literally better than 90% of VR games, and the game hasn't even been out for a month yet.
[QUOTE=gk99;53002996]I hear it sucks compared to other games because of being a disembodied Pip-Boy and gun.
Personally can't confirm because there's no way in hell I'm paying $60 for a re-release of a game from two years ago that I already own because they didn't feel like discounting it.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't suck by any stretch of the imagination. It's a shitty VR port but even as a shitty VR port its super fun to play. People are just shitting on it heavily because they don't want to admit that even though its overpriced and runs like absolute ass, it's incredibly fun to play.
Personally I don't like the VR community and the obsession with full body control and room scale stuff. I think those are fine things to have (especially once foot tracking becomes more common) but I also want games where I'm sitting at the computer controlling it like a regular game. Ideally, for me, a game like Fallout would mostly control the same as it does by standard but allow for tracking controls too.
VR games should, when not doing something very specific, try to accommodate as many control preferences as possible. And the VR community needs to stop acting like elitist jerks who say "Oh you don't want x, y, and z? Well why even bother?" People want different things from games and they want different things from VR, and driving them away by being pissy isn't helping anything.
I think VR is a cool concept but I have no interest in room scale stuff at all. I think most of what VR enthusiasts consider to be 'vital' to make a VR game good is just gimmicky shit that's only interesting because it's a novelty. I don't care if you can pick everything up, that's fucking boring.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;53004894]Personally I don't like the VR community and the obsession with full body control and room scale stuff. I think those are fine things to have (especially once foot tracking becomes more common) but I also want games where I'm sitting at the computer controlling it like a regular game. Ideally, for me, a game like Fallout would mostly control the same as it does by standard but allow for tracking controls too.
VR games should, when not doing something very specific, try to accommodate as many control preferences as possible. And the VR community needs to stop acting like elitist jerks who say "Oh you don't want x, y, and z? Well why even bother?" People want different things from games and they want different things from VR, and driving them away by being pissy isn't helping anything.
I think VR is a cool concept but I have no interest in room scale stuff at all. I think most of what VR enthusiasts consider to be 'vital' to make a VR game good is just gimmicky shit that's only interesting because it's a novelty. I don't care if you can pick everything up, that's fucking boring.[/QUOTE]
We've had "sit at the computer with a headset" since the DK2. I don't know why you're upset that people are excited about futuristic technology and the crazy new gameplay experiences it brings.
[QUOTE=srobins;53004896]We've had "sit at the computer with a headset" since the DK2. I don't know why you're upset that people are excited about futuristic technology and the crazy new gameplay experiences it brings.[/QUOTE]
Because people are using it as an excuse to make piss boring games. You still need game mechanics and traditional gamey stuff to make a fun VR game, but instead of pushing the boundaries in that department to make a fun game, people are just pooping out ultra boring walking simulators that target people who haven't become accustomed to VR yet.
Notice how people are super fucking excited to play a janky VR port of a [i]real game[/i]. This is what people want. [i]REAL games[/i]. Not Job Simulator, aka standing up and doing basic tasks with the motion controls. Not H3VR, aka shooting range simulator without all the tactile, dopamine producing shit you get in real life but not with a lifeless controller. That shit would never fly with any other medium, because *it is boring*.
It's been years, it's time we stop marveling at the tech and start making [I]fun games[/I].
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004230]I fundamentally disagree. These are still games at their core. If you don’t enjoy Fallout on your flat screen, you won’t enjoy it in VR, and vice versa. Once you get past the honeymoon period, games are games. The cheesy input gimmicks have hugely diminishing returns once you get past the basics. Focus on the core game, not adding cheesy input shit.[/QUOTE]
The entire point of VR is that you can have those small intuitive details. You're still on the 'input gimmick' argument. Maybe we should just use a keyboard and mouse instead of controllers then, because motion controls are nothing but an effective and fun "gimmick"
it sounds like you shouldn't even bother with VR if that's the attitude. I found Serious Sam to be far more fun in VR than outside of it. I also found many games fun that I never would have even bothered with. Yes controls should be accommodating, but part of the charm is, so long as it works perfectly, figuring out the motions of reloading and using items.
[QUOTE=J!NX;53004911]The entire point of VR is that you can have those small intuitive details. You're still on the 'input gimmick' argument. Maybe we should just use a keyboard and mouse instead of controllers then, because motion controls are nothing but an effective and fun "gimmick"
it sounds like you shouldn't even bother with VR if that's the attitude. I found Serious Sam to be far more fun in VR than outside of it. I also found many games fun that I never would have even bothered with. Yes controls should be accommodating, but part of the charm is, so long as it works perfectly, figuring out the motions of reloading and using items.[/QUOTE]
It's funny you say that, because Serious Sam literally has zero of those details. It's just a point and click shooter with no VR gimmicks.
My entire point is that there are [I]diminishing returns[/I]. Head tracking + basic motion controls is nearly equal to head tracking + robust motion controls, and you're agreeing with me here because Serious Sam is a supremely basic VR shooter.
Regardless, you're in the stage where you're wowed by VR, not by games. You'll get out of it eventually, and you'll be just as bored by Serious Sam VR as you are by flat screen Serious Sam.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004918]It's funny you say that, because Serious Sam literally has zero of those details. It's just a point and click shooter with no VR gimmicks.
You're in the stage where you're wowed by VR, not by games. You'll get out of it eventually, and you'll be just as bored by Serious Sam VR as you are by flat screen Serious Sam.[/QUOTE]
Serious Sam has never had a reloading button though. I'd totally like having a SS style game with reloading. I mentioned SS as a game that I enjoyed in VR above flat, so, ok I guess whatever
If it had Hover Junkers style reloading, I'd say it'd improve the game by a huge margin. That's still far more then 'just a single button', that's using the pad in a way that's natural. It would still be a button rather than physical reloading, but a button used in a cleaner way.
I'm not sure how you can actually say "What stage I'm at", because you totally know my tastes and what I want in a game, I'm sure
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004900]Because people are using it as an excuse to make piss boring games. You still need game mechanics and traditional gamey stuff to make a fun VR game, but instead of pushing the boundaries in that department to make a fun game, people are just pooping out ultra boring walking simulators that target people who haven't become accustomed to VR yet.
Notice how people are super fucking excited to play a janky VR port of a [i]real game[/i]. This is what people want. [i]REAL games[/i]. Not Job Simulator, aka standing up and doing basic tasks with the motion controls. Not H3VR, aka shooting range simulator without all the tactile, dopamine producing shit you get in real life but not with a lifeless controller. That shit would never fly with any other medium, because *it is boring*.
It's been years, it's time we stop marveling at the tech and start making [I]fun games[/I].[/QUOTE]
H3VR is a fun game though. I'm not going to argue that a lot of VR games are the 'wave shooter' variety, or 'X simulator' types, because that's not entirely wrong. You are, however, ignoring the proper games, like Arizona Sunshine, Stand Out, and others that I'm forgetting off the top of my head. VR [I]IS[/I] fleshing out, but Bethesda putting out soulless ports of their games doesn't help bring their world to life in the way that people want. They're basically emulating controller inputs with the motion controls rather than adding proper interactivity. Don't get me wrong, I'd still like playing their games in VR, but the lack of effort is nothing short of pure laziness and carelessness.
[QUOTE=Downsider;53004900]Because people are using it as an excuse to make piss boring games. You still need game mechanics and traditional gamey stuff to make a fun VR game, but instead of pushing the boundaries in that department to make a fun game, people are just pooping out ultra boring walking simulators that target people who haven't become accustomed to VR yet.
Notice how people are super fucking excited to play a janky VR port of a [i]real game[/i]. This is what people want. [i]REAL games[/i]. Not Job Simulator, aka standing up and doing basic tasks with the motion controls. Not H3VR, aka shooting range simulator without all the tactile, dopamine producing shit you get in real life but not with a lifeless controller. That shit would never fly with any other medium, because *it is boring*.
It's been years, it's time we stop marveling at the tech and start making [I]fun games[/I].[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree, VR is full of boring shooting gallery bullshit and frankly I've never had any interest in buying H3VR because after 15 minutes of playing it at a friends house the novelty of clanking my controllers together to reload a tactical rifle got really really boring. But to me sitting at a desk with a headset is even more piss boring than a motion controller shooting gallery. Obviously, ideally, I want a combination of both motion controls [I]and[/I] actual gameplay.
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