I don't have an issue with gender specific clubs and venues; there are women-only functions, gentlemans clubs and the like all over the world and in basically all cultures. Even things like "game night" which are near exclusively male things. As much as some people would argue against it, men and women are fundamentally different and as a bloke, I like the sobering, safe atmosphere of the male-only clubs. Plus I think we all like the idea of being in an exclusive club. I'm sure women feel likewise about venues and function that cater to them exclusively.
When it strays in to all public spaces and these gender-specific venues aren't properly signposted, and its just expected that public space = men only, that's when its a problem. This video was pretty gross.
[QUOTE=Reagy;51561887]How's that Chinese buyout going in Canada eh?
This stuff is happening everywhere.[/QUOTE]
To be fair Canada has established new laws to put the chinese buyout to an end.
Nothing is being done about immigrant enclaves.
Police won't even go into the 'no go zones'. At least Vancouver still has law and order.
Honestly, this shit needs military intervention. 'no go zones' have rpgs, Kalashnikovs, hand grenades, police won't go there because it's fucking syria 2.0 there.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51561252]This is islamisation of these areas where muslims move in, you got to be a naive fool to not see it.[/QUOTE]
this is not an islam specific issue, get real
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51561252]This is islamisation of these areas where muslims move in, you got to be a naive fool to not see it.[/QUOTE]
What happened to you? I remember when you were cool and talked about neat things and did epic drawings. Now you're high on politics.
On topic though, I don't know how this kind of place is legal. Is discrimination not against the law in France?
If you'd try to enforce Western values in a shithole like Saudi Arabia you'd be in serious shit. Fuck this.
I don't give a rat's ass if you enforce this bullshit in your own crapsack of a country. I don't give a damn if you take Allah and the Quran with you. I don't care if you bring along the clothing associated with your culture, I don't care if you take your music with you, but we as a society should not be accepting this ass-backwards nonsense.
[QUOTE=Recurracy;51562394]If you'd try to enforce Western values in a shithole like Saudi Arabia you'd be in serious shit. Fuck this.
I don't give a rat's ass if you enforce this bullshit in your own crapsack of a country. I don't give a damn if you take Allah and the Quran with you. I don't care if you bring along the clothing associated with your culture, I don't care if you take your music with you, but we as a society should not be accepting this ass-backwards nonsense.[/QUOTE]
You just said you don't care.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51562412]You just said you don't care.[/QUOTE]
I care about the value of 'live and let live', that goes for every individual on the planet regardless of their ethnicity or anything else. We're starting to embed it as a core value in our society, thank fuck. And it used to be one of the more important values in the Islamic golden age, too. I just wish it still was.
I'm willing to tolerate a hell of a lot when it comes to the Islam because I simply do not care about religion. But the one thing about it that I deeply oppose is the fact that women are perceived as lesser beings. We shouldn't be willing to tolerate them bringing that into our society. They should accept that, too.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;51562238]To be fair Canada has established new laws to put the chinese buyout to an end.
Nothing is being done about immigrant enclaves.
Police won't even go into the 'no go zones'. At least Vancouver still has law and order.
Honestly, this shit needs military intervention. 'no go zones' have rpgs, Kalashnikovs, hand grenades, police won't go there because it's fucking syria 2.0 there.[/QUOTE]
Where are these no go zones and how prevalent are they?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51562553]Where are these no go zones and how prevalent are they?[/QUOTE]
Good video on Sweden about it. Apparently 55 there.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-pG4oiih3A[/media]
It's insane the difference in how multiculturalism works in say Britain compared to France. It appears to have failed completely in France.
It's very clear that immigrants need to be integrated through ensuring they become a part of the communities they're now living in and are not essentially left to their own areas. That type of division is only going to cause problems.
Of course the president for the government to actually do anything about this sort of thing is to let it over boil first and cause major national disruption.
As if bombings and shootings and complete territorial take overs weren't enough.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51562720]It's insane the difference in how multiculturalism works in say Britain compared to France. It appears to have failed completely in France.
It's very clear that immigrants need to be integrated through ensuring they become a part of the communities they're now living in and are not essentially left to their own areas. That type of division is only going to cause problems.[/QUOTE]
Think one of the major differences between the UK and France is that the UK as a whole is just more population dense, that in turn actively promotes multiculturalism, sure pockets form but its a lot harder for them to stay stuck in one single way and establish their own little country in a country. Referring back to my previous point of those who are trying to enforce their way in my area and no one ain't having any of that shit.
While in France the country is massive and its overall population is a lot smaller, the overall density as well is massively lower once you get out of the city centres so it allows for these type of areas to grow, its pretty bad at times as these minorities can take over whole towns and villages by pushing other cultures out just by pure discrimination and the whole "don't follow my culture get out" attitude that can get pretty violent.
I have nothing against people bringing their cultures with them, but when they try to establish them as iron law over whats already there, honestly they can fuck right back off home, its either adapt and accept that where they're now living isn't the same place as it was back in the home country or just outright leave, otherwise it's going to cause problems as presented on multiple occasions.
Another issue I've seen is that a lot of recent middle eastern immigrants from within the last 5~8 years don't even want help integrating into the already established communities, there's a lot of promotional material and even help services for them but they get ignored and pushed aside due to a lot having a set mentality that what they know is law and no one can tell them otherwise, its really disgusting and annoying at the same time that they even have this mentality. I've met some really nice people who have came from these war zones and other middle eastern countries but I've also met some right assholes who fit into the my ideals, my law minority and it leaves a bad taste on the whole area that they're in.
Even saying this makes me feel like I'm bordering on nationalistic and racist but some of these people are really terrible and its having a knock on effect with everyone else.
[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;51560125]Might be time to throw a couple of starbucks and crap in that area and forcefully gentrify it.[/QUOTE]
Then you'll get a lot of dirty hipsters armed with razor thin iMacs that will assault you for not looking like them or for not reading their scripts!
Americans may be "rude and boisterous", but seeing things like this makes me grateful for that attitude. The complacency and just sort of rolling over and taking it attitude just floors me. That wouldn't happen here.
if we didn't have the turks we wouldn't have kebab and honestly i fucking love kebab
[QUOTE=Wolverunder;51562914]Americans may be "rude and boisterous", but seeing things like this makes me grateful for that attitude. The complacency and just sort of rolling over and taking it attitude just floors me. That wouldn't happen here.[/QUOTE]
That is something people here in Scandinavia need more of. Nobody stands up for themselves whatsoever. I'm not just talking about in situations related to the OP, but in general. When I was in the US I was surprised at how.. vocal :v: everyone is. I would rather have that over people just being quiet and not standing up for themselves.
[QUOTE=Covalent;51561988]We have Hockey, and cold as fuck winters.[/QUOTE]
Not Florida this winter :V
[QUOTE=Tudd;51562588]Good video on Sweden about it. Apparently 55 there.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-pG4oiih3A[/media][/QUOTE]
I have seen that clip.
Problem is those 55 "no-go" zones aren't places where the police don't go in, they're defined by [url=https://polisen.se/Global/www%20och%20Intrapolis/Rapporter-utredningar/01%20Polisen%20nationellt/Ovriga%20rapporter-utredningar/Kriminella%20natverk%20med%20stor%20paverkan%20i%20lokalsamhallet%20Sekretesspr%2014.pdf]the police[/url] as areas:
[QUOTE][...]där lokala kriminella nätverk anses ha negativ påverkan på lokalsamhället. Områdena är fördelade över 22 städer – från storstäder till mindre orter och anses vara socioekonomiskt utsatta. Det stora kriminella genomslaget på lokalsamhället förefaller vara knutet till den sociala kontexten i områdena snarare än på en vilja hos de kriminella att ta makten och kontrollen över lokalsamhället.
[...]
Utveckling i områdena har medfört svårigheter att utreda brott. Polisen har även i andra avseenden svårt att arbeta i dessa områden, bland annat på grund av att omgivningen reagerar mot Polisen vid ingripanden eller genom att angripa Polisens fordon.
In English:
[...]where local criminal networks are considered to have a negative impact on the local community. The areas are spread across 22 cities - from big cities to smaller towns and are considered socio-economically disadvantaged. The big criminals the impact on the local community appears to be linked to the social context of the area rather than with the intention of the criminals to take power and control of the local community.
[...]
The development in these areas have made it hard to solve cases of crime. The police have even in other respects found it hard to work in these areas, in part due to the locals reacting to the police at intervention or through attacks on police vehicles.
[/QUOTE]
Sure, that isn't great at all. But it doesn't mean there are 55 no-go zones in Sweden where radical Islamists armed to the teeth are scaring away the police like Dibbs implied. I'd imagine the US has similar problems (and a way higher murder rate, but yeah whatever, let's not go there).
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51563907]Sure, that isn't great at all. But it doesn't mean there are 55 no-go zones in Sweden where[B] radical Islamists [/B][I]armed to the teeth[/I][B] are scaring away the police[/B] like Dibbs implied. [/QUOTE]
[quote]The police have even in other respects found it hard to work in these areas, in part due to the [B]locals reacting to the police at intervention or through attacks on police[/B] vehicles. [/quote]
Subtract your "armed to the teeth" strawman and it's pretty much it.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51564043]Subtract your "armed to the teeth" strawman and it's pretty much it.[/QUOTE]
Let me quote Dibbs:
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;51562238]To be fair Canada has established new laws to put the chinese buyout to an end.
Nothing is being done about immigrant enclaves.
[B]Police won't even go into the 'no go zones'. [/B]At least Vancouver still has law and order.
[B]Honestly, this shit needs military intervention. 'no go zones' have rpgs, Kalashnikovs, hand grenades, police won't go there because it's fucking syria 2.0 there.[/B][/QUOTE]
This isn't the case. At all. My problem isn't that people talk about these problematic zones, my issue is with the complete hyperbole you're met with in these discussions. Some people may be completely in denial on one side, but some on the other side are making five chickens of a feather while calling on the other side to be realistic.
And I wasn't strawmanning anyone, read the thread.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51564080]Let me quote Dibbs:
This isn't the case. At all. My problem isn't that people talk about these problematic zones, my issue is with the complete hyperbole you're met with in these discussions. Some people may be completely in denial on one side, but some on the other side are making five chickens of a feather while calling on the other side to be realistic.
And I wasn't strawmanning anyone, read the thread.[/QUOTE]
Yeah the fucking rpgs escaped me lol. My apologies.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51562347]this is not an islam specific issue, get real[/QUOTE]
It doesnt seem like any other ethnic conclaves are having hard time integrating or adapting. Doesnt seem like other religions are driving trucks through crowds.
You gotta live in the now man.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51565031]It doesnt seem like any other ethnic conclaves are having hard time integrating or adapting. Doesnt seem like other religions are driving trucks through crowds.
You gotta live in the now man.[/QUOTE]
I'm not talking about other religions, I'm talking about other cultures in general (and note, I'm talking about the bars. I might discuss that truck comment later but first I wanna finish up on this train of thought) I can walk two blocks down the street and find a male-only bar just like the one in the OP, filled with catholics and evangelicals that will react in the exact same way
But I know what you're thinking: I'm in Brazil, not in France. France doesn't want to be Brazil. Germany doesn't want to be Brazil. Hell, I think even Brazil doesn't want to be Brazil. The point isn't that this is justified, or in any way acceptable. In fact, this is the exact kind of sexism I've been speaking out against for as long as I can remember, all the while being branded as an out-of-touch lefty getting offended on behalf of other people
But if recognizing what the issue is, and how normal it can be doesn't justify it, then what does it do? For one, it brings it down a notch. From the surreal, overblown perspective that male venues equal Islamisation, into the real world, where we can find real solutions. It demystifies the problem, which is key to all the skeptics and pragmatists on the other side, that haven't bought into the narrative that every migrant-related concern can be chalked up to faults in Islam, because they see through the obvious bias. And that's the bridge I feel the moderates on the anti-immigration side ought to cross if they want to get stuff done. Lord M's sheltered notion that shabby bars [I]must[/I] be a sign of Islamisation won't resonate with people who don't already agree with him. But a more down-to-earth approach that addresses the fact this isn't new, nor is it impossible to overcome, just might.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51565415]I'm not talking about other religions, I'm talking about other cultures in general (and note, I'm talking about the bars. I might discuss that truck comment later but first I wanna finish up on this train of thought) I can walk two blocks down the street and find a male-only bar just like the one in the OP, filled with catholics and evangelicals that will react in the exact same way
But I know what you're thinking: I'm in Brazil, not in France. France doesn't want to be Brazil. Germany doesn't want to be Brazil. Hell, I think even Brazil doesn't want to be Brazil. The point isn't that this is justified, or in any way acceptable. In fact, this is the exact kind of sexism I've been speaking out against for as long as I can remember, all the while being branded as an out-of-touch lefty getting offended on behalf of other people
But if recognizing what the issue is, and how normal it can be doesn't justify it, then what does it do? For one, it brings it down a notch. From the surreal, overblown perspective that male venues equal Islamisation, into the real world, where we can find real solutions. It demystifies the problem, which is key to all the skeptics and pragmatists on the other side, that haven't yet bought into the narrative that every migrant-related concern can be chalked up to faults in Islam, because they see through the obvious bias. And that's the bridge I feel the moderates on the anti-immigration side ought to cross if they want to get stuff done. Lord M's sheltered notion that shabby bars [I]must[/I] be a sign of Islamisation won't resonate with people who don't already agree with him. But a more down-to-earth approach that addresses the fact this isn't new, nor is it impossible to overcome, just might.[/QUOTE]
Thanks that was a very well thought out and informative response.
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51561257]
Being a Russian and coming from Estonia, I can tell you that while you are right, you are wrong. There is a huge (over 30%, and the more you go towards East, the percentage increases up to 100%) Russian part of the community in Estonia, but saying that it is nowhere near as bad doesn't even begin to describe it. The issues are fairly non-existant, the only issue is only with people who know Estonian on a bad level, everything else is like in all other countries - harmonic.[/QUOTE]
Last I checked, you are still on the same continent. This is an issue where we have people from a place very far away, move to Western nations, but don't drop their way of life like we are seeing in the video. Sure, people can say multiculturalism is great, but what you are seeing in that video is multiculturalism failing where one culture has just replaced another culture entirely in that cafe. You eventually get people move away from these places, which is basically white flight but with culture being the reason of leaving, then because people leave, there is even less integration and you end up with countries inside countries.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51565415]In fact, this is the exact kind of sexism I've been speaking out against for as long as I can remember.
But if recognizing what the issue is, and how normal it can be doesn't justify it, then what does it do? For one, it brings it down a notch. From the surreal, overblown perspective that male venues equal Islamisation, into the real world, where we can find real solutions. It demystifies the problem, which is key to all the skeptics and pragmatists on the other side, that haven't bought into the narrative that every migrant-related concern can be chalked up to faults in Islam, because they see through the obvious bias. And that's the bridge I feel the moderates on the anti-immigration side ought to cross if they want to get stuff done. Lord M's sheltered notion that shabby bars [I]must[/I] be a sign of Islamisation won't resonate with people who don't already agree with him. But a more down-to-earth approach that addresses the fact this isn't new, nor is it impossible to overcome, just might.[/QUOTE]
It's not that shabby bars are exclusive to Islam. It's that these specific bars in France that we're talking about are created and visited by Muslims who act as if they are in their home country. They have brought the exact kind of sexism you've been speaking out against for as long as you can remember to the country they have migrated to.
What do you think you are "demystifying" by denying it has anything to do with migrants? If anything you are obscuring the reason of the problem. It's not the case that native Frenchmen are sexist it's that Islamic migrants who haven't integrated and act according to their home culture are sexist. In this specific case. And again before you demystify that native Frenchmen can be sexist too, nobody's saying that sexism or shabby bars are exclusive to Islam.
Keep in mind that after doing some research, France 24, the station that created this propaganda, seems to be a race/culture orientated news station and its main goal seems to be basically bringing to light cultural divisions within France. From its wikipedia page [QUOTE]France 24 aims to present a view of the news different from that of the Anglophone leading international news channels BBC World News and CNN International. Its intention is to put more emphasis on debate, dialogue and the role of [B]cultural difference[/B]([URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_24#Long-term_goals"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_24#Long-term_goals[/URL]).[/QUOTE] Basically it appears you have all fallen for Pro-National Front propaganda, probably funded by Russia since they have a [URL="http://www.politico.eu/article/le-pen-russia-crimea-putin-money-bank-national-front-seeks-russian-cash-for-election-fight/"]history[/URL] of that [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/opinion/sunday/donald-trump-the-russian-poodle.html"]sort[/URL] of [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/12103602/America-to-investigate-Russian-meddling-in-EU.html"]thing[/URL].
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;51566684]Keep in mind that after doing some research, France 24, the station that created this propaganda, seems to be a race/culture orientated news station and its main goal seems to be basically bringing to light cultural divisions within France. From its wikipedia page Basically it appears you have all fallen for Pro-National Front propaganda, probably funded by Russia since they have a [URL="http://www.politico.eu/article/le-pen-russia-crimea-putin-money-bank-national-front-seeks-russian-cash-for-election-fight/"]history[/URL] of that [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/opinion/sunday/donald-trump-the-russian-poodle.html"]sort[/URL] of [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/12103602/America-to-investigate-Russian-meddling-in-EU.html"]thing[/URL].[/QUOTE]
"Everything I don't like is Russian propaganda"
Seriously.
[quote]
France 24 is a 24-hour non-stop international news and current affairs television channel based in Paris. Its stated mission is to "cover international current events from a French perspective and to convey French values throughout the world". It started broadcasting on 6 December 2006.
France 24 is broadcast on three channels: in French, in English, and in Arabic.
[B]Channel inception[/B]
The media's perception was that the channel was a brainchild of former president Jacques Chirac, famous for defending the position of the French language in the world, specifically versus the English domination in this media category.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_24[/url]
[/quote]
It was founded by a former President of France.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51566765]"Everything I don't like is Russian propaganda"
Seriously.
It was founded by a former President of France.[/QUOTE]
A President that was extremely nationalistic to the point where it was detrimental to France itself. In your quote it literally says [QUOTE]cover international current events from a French perspective [B]and to convey French values[/B] throughout the world[/QUOTE] Now, there isn't anything inherently wrong with the bolded part obviously, but are you seriously saying that their mission statement couldn't be misused in any way so as to show minorities in an exaggeratedly bad light to promote French "values", more specifically to promote nationalism as has been seen in the States?
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;51566807]A President that was extremely nationalistic to the point where it was detrimental to France itself. In your quote it literally says Now, there isn't anything inherently wrong with the bolded part obviously, but are you seriously saying that their mission statement couldn't be misused in any way so as to show minorities in an exaggeratedly bad light to promote French "values", more specifically to promote nationalism as has been seen in the States?[/QUOTE]
Yeah it could but the burden of proof false on you. You made the claim they aren't legitimate, you even go as far to suggest they could be financed and controlled by foreign nationals. Now back it up.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
