• Can't draw? This is just an illusion.
    89 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;49416220]In many respects following his example is similar to just using tracing paper. It's removing the guidelines / trainign wheels that people struggle with. I myself like to draw but I'm better with landscapes and objects such as cars and tanks, architecture hell I'm alright drawing humans too but my ability falls down when it comes to faces and iv'e never really got better. Cartoon faces I'm fine with, anime, western i got them down to a T but it's realistic faces that I'm not too good at. Hasn't stopped me trying though and i will crack it, one day.[/QUOTE] I have a hard time with hands.
[QUOTE=Thlis;49414912]Yeah, because you tend to have to learn things to draw things. I am really at a loss and all I can say is buck up read a book or watch a video and study. I mean what, all those squiggly lines are obviously just artists around the world having a laugh? [video=youtube;1EPNYWeEf1U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EPNYWeEf1U[/video][/QUOTE] I just wanna say that I've been trying to learn from Loomis' books and this video is an awesome explanation. Thanks!
[QUOTE=_Kent_;49416128][img]https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/10583928_10206827125931122_3882356555515660162_n.jpg?oh=c5b6e2d8a1d3dcdd12661316e7653c15&oe=5701A670[/img] I think I did ok[/QUOTE] I also drew Gordon Freeman. Your proportions are better. [t]http://i.imgur.com/EKYWmb6.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=Octopod;49415899]i don't know but that's the case for many people who say they can't draw ask someone to do something they're not a natural at chances are they just give up on it and never look back[/QUOTE] Drawing seems to be one of those talents that people misunderstand greatly and one of the ones that people greatly associate with talent or innate ability. That's why people give up, they don't understand how to learn and expect to either be good or bad. Obviously you're going to be bad because you never studied so they give up. I also blame the teachers, a lot of people who put out tutorials or lessons present their teachings as a "shortcut" or tackle a specific area but never explain why or how something is what it is. If you followed a guide on how to draw something specific, even if it looks great (because you followed the steps to a T) if you don't understand the importance of how you got to the result then I would say you have learned nothing. You can teach any dope how to copy but understanding it is another feat in itself. I don't think this video helps much at all, you can draw a bunch of lines and it looks like a person but cool, now draw that person facing directly forward, draw them with a sad facial expression. Oh wait but you can't because you don't understand the "why". I don't believe talent exists or at the very best it's more like an EXP modifier. Some people may level up faster but everyone still has to put in the time to level up. Some people pick up stuff quicker but in the end it still takes a lot of study and work to draw, just like any other talent or skill.
[QUOTE=ashxu;49416539]Drawing seems to be one of those talents that people misunderstand greatly and one of the ones that people greatly associate with talent or innate ability. That's why people give up, they don't understand how to learn and expect to either be good or bad. Obviously you're going to be bad because you never studied so they give up. I also blame the teachers, a lot of people who put out tutorials or lessons present their teachings as a "shortcut" or tackle a specific area but never explain why or how something is what it is. If you followed a guide on how to draw something specific, even if it looks great (because you followed the steps to a T) if you don't understand the importance of how you got to the result then I would say you have learned nothing. You can teach any dope how to copy but understanding it is another feat in itself. I don't think this video helps much at all, you can draw a bunch of lines and it looks like a person but cool, now draw that person facing directly forward, draw them with a sad facial expression. Oh wait but you can't because you don't understand the "why". I don't believe talent exists or at the very best it's more like an EXP modifier. Some people may level up faster but everyone still has to put in the time to level up. Some people pick up stuff quicker but in the end it still takes a lot of study and work to draw, just like any other talent or skill.[/QUOTE] This is what happened when I tried to draw that facing forward. I get the feeling that you're right. [t]http://i.imgur.com/9uwys81.jpg[/t] I call him Gordon Beeman.
I think I got everything stacked against me. Dysgraphia, pretty much zero artistic imagination, poor spatial perception, and borderline aphantasia.
[QUOTE=woolio1;49416640]This is what happened when I tried to draw that facing forward. I get the feeling that you're right. [t]http://i.imgur.com/9uwys81.jpg[/t] Also, Freeman is now a bee for reasons.[/QUOTE] That's not too bad but tbh it's also a very simple drawing. My point was mostly that videos like this only teach you one thing but they never explain how [I]they[/I] got to the result. You're just following their instructions but they never explain why you do it like that. If he was teaching you to draw something more complex like a realistic head or even a complex object like a car then drawing it from a different angle you'd struggle a lot more because you don't know things such as perspective, form or even just how these objects look from a different perspective without looking at a reference. Even if these audience participants actually went home and experimented more, it's useless because they only know how to draw these abstract shapes that form a cartoon and have no further instruction or leads to go on with. So they're going to give up anyway, thanks a lot.
[QUOTE=ashxu;49416696]That's not too bad but tbh it's also a very simple drawing. My point was mostly that videos like this only teach you one thing but they never explain how [I]they[/I] got to the result. You're just following their instructions but they never explain why you do it like that. If he was teaching you to draw something more complex like a realistic head or even a complex object like a car then drawing it from a different angle you'd struggle a lot more because you don't know things such as perspective, form or even just how these objects look from a different perspective without looking at a reference. Even if these audience participants actually went home and experimented more, it's useless because they only know how to draw these abstract shapes that form a cartoon and have no further instruction or leads to go on with. So they're going to give up anyway, thanks a lot.[/QUOTE] I do know perspective, just not with people. Or... Bee people, as it happens. I do a lot of architectural drawings, which are significantly better. People are hard, and you can't use rulers for straight lines.
I still think this guy is addressing an issue that doesn't really exist. When people say that they "can't draw" they don't literally mean that they can't put a pencil on a paper and copy some basic cartoons. Everyone already knows that they can do that. What they mean is that they can't visualize an idea and accurately draw it out, and this video says nothing to that.
I think that the real reason why people don't learn how to draw is because for most it is nothing but an empty repetitive chore, similarly to how virtually anything is if it does not resonate with you. People become artists, and sometimes great artists, because it is within their inherent passion to do so, and because it makes their soul light up. Generally people tend to gravitate towards whatever makes them feel fulfilled pretty quickly. And it also doesn't take long at all to figure out if you actually like something or not. It's ofcourse possible to delude yourself into thinking that you do (which tends to come from anxiety and the desperation to fit in or fulfill social expectations) however it still does not equate to actual happiness from your craft/profession/role. Basically the point is, even if you suck at something, you will keep doing it if it gives you a sense of being alive. If it makes you feel miserable as fuck and frustrated with zero gratification from it, then it was probably not meant for you. If on other hand it makes you feel frustrated while simultaneously being incredibly rewarding, then there is a fair chance that you should keep going. Your interests should not consist of being a never ending pile of insufferable shit that never gives you anything in return, that's not really fair to you at all. Some parts might certainly feel like a chore, but it should never be ALL of it.
[QUOTE=genkaz92;49416890]I think that the real reason why people don't learn how to draw is because for most it is nothing but an empty repetitive chore, similarly to how virtually anything is if it does not resonate with you. People become artists, and sometimes great artists, because it is within their inherent passion to do so, and because it makes their soul light up. Generally people tend to gravitate towards whatever makes them feel fulfilled pretty quickly. And it also doesn't take long at all to figure out if you actually like something or not. It's ofcourse possible to delude yourself into thinking that you do (which tends to come from anxiety and the desperation to fit in or fulfill social expectations) however it still does not equate to actual happiness from your craft/profession/role. Basically the point is, even if you suck at something, you will keep doing it if it gives you a sense of being alive. If it makes you feel miserable as fuck and frustrated with zero gratification from it, then it was probably not meant for you. If on other hand it makes you feel frustrated while simultaneously being incredibly rewarding, then there is a fair chance that you should keep going. Your interests should not consist of being a never ending pile of insufferable shit that never gives you anything in return, that's not really fair to you at all. Some parts might certainly feel like a chore, but it should never be ALL of it.[/QUOTE] Which is why my interests are Lego, fountain pens, and journalism. I might actually just be broken, though.
been mildly interested in drawing since forever but it never progressed beyond occasional idle doodles /\:v:/\ [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] everyone here with dysgraphia tho thought i was the only one
[QUOTE=woolio1;49416958]Which is why my interests are Lego, fountain pens, and journalism. I might actually just be broken, though.[/QUOTE] Actually that's beautiful, you have a fantastic set of interests that you have gravitated towards, good stuff.
I always believed everyone can draw, and I always told people that that ask me about it. If I can do it then why cannot everyone else. There's even people without hands that learned to draw. Its all about believing and being confident in yourself.
[QUOTE=ashxu;49416539] I also blame the teachers, a lot of people who put out tutorials or lessons present their teachings as a "shortcut" or tackle a specific area but never explain why or how something is what it is. If you followed a guide on how to draw something specific, even if it looks great (because you followed the steps to a T) if you don't understand the importance of how you got to the result then I would say you have learned nothing. You can teach any dope how to copy but understanding it is another feat in itself. I don't think this video helps much at all, you can draw a bunch of lines and it looks like a person but cool, now draw that person facing directly forward, draw them with a sad facial expression. Oh wait but you can't because you don't understand the "why". [/QUOTE] This so much. While it is nice for motivation,videos like these always kinda irked me as I remember when I tried to learn how to draw when I was a kid and due to how most tutorials are just "shortcuts" using symbol drawing and abstract shapes with no reasoning behind them,I quickly gave up as I couldn't do anything besides what I've learned. Fortunately,I picked it up again and have gotten somewhat competent at drawing after getting some guidance from the guys at the Creative Work thread [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=!LORD M!;49418348]I always believed everyone can draw, and I always told people that that ask me about it. If I can do it then why cannot everyone else. There's even people without hands that learned to draw. Its all about believing and being confident in yourself.[/QUOTE] I think the weirdest thing that has ever happened to me after I started studying how to draw was having my friends who were way better at drawing when I was younger say to me that I have talent
A book that is also very recommended is [URL="http://www.amazon.com/Drawing-Right-Side-Brain-Definitive/dp/1585429201/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451474245&sr=8-1&keywords=betty+edwards"]Drawing on the right side of the brain by Betty Edwards.[/URL] A heavy part in the book revolves around the right brain half and how it works with many good practice excercises. The greatest part is that it explains what goes in your head if you try to draw. If you have ever tried drawing and came across limitations or obstacles you will find them mentioned here and they are explained in a way that's completely understandable and how to overcome them.
[QUOTE=ZombieDawgs;49415486]Aside from not having a clue about anything you're talking about you made a sweeping judgment on the source material. Loomis goes through every part of getting to that level so it's not just "draw the fucking owl" B^)[/QUOTE] it was just a prank, bro
I find this video was a little more difficult to interpret, but it also raises a few important points and questions. With the title, introduction and theme, the guy talking implies heavily that the skill of 'drawing' can be completely disconnected from the concept of talent. But the thing is, the ENTIRE rest of the video depends on your definition of what 'drawing' actually means. If you consider drawing the ability to take a pen and create a few shapes that 50% of the people in the room with you will call 'not terrible' then, yes, pretty much anyone can learn that. But from the perspective of a professional graphic designer, this sort of mindset is something I instantly recognized because it is somewhat of a beginners trap. Because all you're doing here is learning a pattern. A sequence of motions for the pen to follow that will produce a consistent result that is arguably 'not terrible'. You could teach a monkey to hit a sequence of keys on a keyboard to type a specific sentence, yet it is difficult to claim that you have therefore taught him to spell in the fullest sense of the word. This is exactly the stage, the people always drawing the same manga characters since they first started picking up a pen are in. I use manga as a example, simply because SO many people do it. There are a few guidelines to follow, a few shapes to draw and you have a template that will result in something somewhat resembling something from that show you watch. And there is an initial 'isn't that cool'-sense of accomplishment to pulling it off. But the problem is where you go from that. Because all you learned thus far is a simple pattern that is almost impossible to vary. Simply drawing a character in a different pose, from a different perspective, with a different expression can completely throw you off. This is when its really up to you to define what it means to be able to draw. If all you want to do is to create one specific image with little to no variation, you're good. But if you try to expand from there you're in one of the worse positions you can be. Because being able to draw diverse subjects and styles requires you to learn from the ground up. First you have to explore, study an object, then you can apply a stylistic form of abstraction like a cartoon or manga style. If you start with an abstraction directly, you will have a difficult time un-learning what you know in order to build up diversity. So I wouldn't say this proves that anyone can draw, but it proves that there is a way for many people to produce a very specific image that is not terrible. If you have a higher standard for drawing then you can't get around the excessive practice it takes to get good. But like I said, it all depends on your own, personal definition of what it means to draw.
[QUOTE=H4ngman;49419231]I find this video was a little more difficult to interpret, but it also raises a few important points and questions. With the title, introduction and theme, the guy talking implies heavily that the skill of 'drawing' can be completely disconnected from the concept of talent. But the thing is, the ENTIRE rest of the video depends on your definition of what 'drawing' actually means. If you consider drawing the ability to take a pen and create a few shapes that 50% of the people in the room with you will call 'not terrible' then, yes, pretty much anyone can learn that. But from the perspective of a professional graphic designer, this sort of mindset is something I instantly recognized because it is somewhat of a beginners trap. Because all you're doing here is learning a pattern. A sequence of motions for the pen to follow that will produce a consistent result that is arguably 'not terrible'. You could teach a monkey to hit a sequence of keys on a keyboard to type a specific sentence, yet it is difficult to claim that you have therefore taught him to spell in the fullest sense of the word. This is exactly the stage, the people always drawing the same manga characters since they first started picking up a pen are in. I use manga as a example, simply because SO many people do it. There are a few guidelines to follow, a few shapes to draw and you have a template that will result in something somewhat resembling something from that show you watch. And there is an initial 'isn't that cool'-sense of accomplishment to pulling it off. But the problem is where you go from that. Because all you learned thus far is a simple pattern that is almost impossible to vary. Simply drawing a character in a different pose, from a different perspective, with a different expression can completely throw you off. This is when its really up to you to define what it means to be able to draw. If all you want to do is to create one specific image with little to no variation, you're good. But if you try to expand from there you're in one of the worse positions you can be. Because being able to draw diverse subjects and styles requires you to learn from the ground up. First you have to explore, study an object, then you can apply a stylistic form of abstraction like a cartoon or manga style. If you start with an abstraction directly, you will have a difficult time un-learning what you know in order to build up diversity. So I wouldn't say this proves that anyone can draw, but it proves that there is a way for many people to produce a very specific image that is not terrible. If you have a higher standard for drawing then you can't get around the excessive practice it takes to get good. But like I said, it all depends on your own, personal definition of what it means to draw.[/QUOTE] i think you've misunderstood what he means by 'drawing' is self-evident by him using the example of stroke-victims. he's talking about people that literally believe that they're incapable of creating any sort of imagery that could be pleasing (like a stroke victim who has had their motor skills ruined) if anything i took the video to be "listen up kids, going into drawing by looking at the masters and going 'i can't do that, so i can't draw' is the wrong attitude, because you can do these things with about 10 lines - so you're capable of starting" he's saying that the most basic level of drawing is actually extremely easy, so everyone can draw, it's just springboarding from that point onto more than that sure, you're right, if you're stuck drawing the same thing again and again you'll get proficient at that but you won't improve elsewhere, but he's not worried about people going further, he's talking about the people who honestly believe they can't start at all [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] basically, this video fucking succeeded because there's people in this thread drawing and showing their drawings - hell, i've even started drawing again because of it and i'm massively on-and-off on it [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] also by distancing what he's doing from drawing, you're putting drawing on a pedestal that intimidates people out of the medium there's no reason to do that - what he's doing is drawing, what people in the thread are doing is drawing, saying "So I wouldn't say this proves that anyone can draw, but it proves that there is a way for many people to produce a very specific image that is not terrible" doesn't help anyone.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49419672]i think you've misunderstood what he means by 'drawing' is self-evident by him using the example of stroke-victims. he's talking about people that literally believe that they're incapable of creating any sort of imagery that could be pleasing (like a stroke victim who has had their motor skills ruined) if anything i took the video to be "listen up kids, going into drawing by looking at the masters and going 'i can't do that, so i can't draw' is the wrong attitude, because you can do these things with about 10 lines - so you're capable of starting" he's saying that the most basic level of drawing is actually extremely easy, so everyone can draw, it's just springboarding from that point onto more than that sure, you're right, if you're stuck drawing the same thing again and again you'll get proficient at that but you won't improve elsewhere, but he's not worried about people going further, he's talking about the people who honestly believe they can't start at all [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] basically, this video fucking succeeded because there's people in this thread drawing and showing their drawings - hell, i've even started drawing again because of it and i'm massively on-and-off on it [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] also by distancing what he's doing from drawing, you're putting drawing on a pedestal that intimidates people out of the medium there's no reason to do that - what he's doing is drawing, what people in the thread are doing is drawing, saying "So I wouldn't say this proves that anyone can draw, but it proves that there is a way for many people to produce a very specific image that is not terrible" doesn't help anyone.[/QUOTE] I don't believe it solves the problem at all though, the speaker did not point the audience in the right direction for future improvement. It's merely temporary satisfaction. If you don't give people the right direction for improving, they're just going to give up again. It made people interested in drawing again, sure. But it did not address the brick wall of a problem at all, deconstructing the learning process of what needs to be learned in order to succeed. It plays for a good feel good presentation sure but for people who want to seriously improve their skill, it doesn't help one bit.
Thank you tedx for turning me into a professional artiste [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fCOFIUZ.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=ashxu;49419769]I don't believe it solves the problem at all though, the speaker did not point the audience in the right direction for future improvement. It's merely temporary satisfaction. If you don't give people the right direction for improving, they are merely just going to give up again. It made people interested in drawing again, sure. But it did not address the brick wall of a problem at all, deconstructing the learning process of what needs to be learned in order to succeed. It plays for a good feel good presentation sure but for people who want to seriously improve their skill, it doesn't help one bit.[/QUOTE] if you're wanting to improve your drawing skill, watching a 15 minute ted talk aimed at people at the LOWEST POSSIBLE point of the artistic scale isn't the place to do it it's like going into an Italian restaurant and complaining you can't order chinese the speaker doesn't need to point the audience to further improvement (partially because he has 15 minutes) because he's talking about the most inept - the people that believe they cannot draw at all if anyone is passionate about improvement and wants to get better, they'll find the resources, and this guy probably helped a few people do just that - he's helping people get on the path, those that believed that they couldn't get on it at all [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Daniel Smith;49419786]Thank you tedx for turning me into a professional artiste [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fCOFIUZ.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] this is the shit i'm talking about he's got people picking up pencils (mice or whatever) to draw, and that's pretty clearly what he set out to do is it feel good? sure, but that doesn't devalue the talk at all, because he's not trying to turn everyone into professional artists, he's trying to show people that you can [I]start[/I] [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] wait that's fucking hitler
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49419672]i think you've misunderstood[/QUOTE] No, I understand his intentions but I'm just writing about some further points and thoughts. I'm expanding on the train of thought that the video started, so to say
[img]http://i.imgur.com/4twlyX4.jpg[/img] wtf how
I draw, and [I]by far[/I] the most common reaction I get when showing people is "I could never do that!" Which I suppose is meant to be encouraging or show that they're impressed, but it always feels weird to me because it feels like they're putting themselves down when they say that. not trying to #humblebrag here, but people have these weird hangups about art. Like, if I spend five minutes on a doodle on the whiteboard it'll stay up there for months while stick figures get erased within days - because "it's so good", even though it's not really! I like whiteboards and post-it notes because they're not permanent, just a fun way to quickly draw something so it feels weird when people are like "wow, you're so much better" and put it up on a pedestal. I don't know, I just wish I could encourage people that [I]yes you can draw![/I] Like people said ITT, this is sort of Bob Ross-ish in that even though it's not the highest caliber of art or the greatest methods, it's great in that it shows people who would probably never even pick up a pencil that art is not this impossible, unassailable summit.
Honestly the problem with this, and many other online how to draw stuff (including Bob Ross) is that they try to break the workflow down, without realising that this doesn't actually always help the person on the other side. In order to teach someone to draw, you first need to teach them how to break a more complex scene into elements and how to rebuild them back into the scene. Not showcase elements and build a scene with them. As that is the area where so many people struggle with. Almost anyone can construct a drawing from a few lines. But very few people know what lines to use or how to find them,
[QUOTE=wraithcat;49421314]Honestly the problem with this, and many other online how to draw stuff (including Bob Ross) is that they try to break the workflow down, without realising that this doesn't actually always help the person on the other side. In order to teach someone to draw, you first need to teach them how to break a more complex scene into elements and how to rebuild them back into the scene. Not showcase elements and build a scene with them. As that is the area where so many people struggle with. Almost anyone can construct a drawing from a few lines. But very few people know what lines to use or how to find them,[/QUOTE] That's why I think I really liked Ed Emberley as a kid, he did the "break something complex down into simple shapes" thing really well, so when you move to more complex levels you already have that base. [IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZjsTwmT7Pzk/UFyZoNf7jAI/AAAAAAAANmo/9Qw_JYxgTB8/s1600/emberley.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://orig08.deviantart.net/37d1/f/2014/196/7/f/creativa3_by_rmdraws-d7qsncv.jpg[/IMG]
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