[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;36487105]acds, I don't know if you know this or not, and this is a surprising concept I know, but all poor people AREN'T lazy. I know crazy, right?
You're the exact type of person that makes people hate the rich. You make blanket statements that you have no idea about.
[/QUOTE]
It's funny that I make blanket statement when the movement calls itself "the 99%" when it's hardly a tenth of that. Also I don't think all poor people are lazy, but sorry if you protest and camp in a park for a month instead of looking for a job when you are jobless and the more time passes the deeper into debt you go, then yeah you should get off your ass and do something, because protesting won't help your situation (at that point you're just whining to people to give you a job when you've done nothing to deserve it).
Also newsflash: OWS does not represent poor people, at all. They love to call themselves 99% but they aren't even close to that. Not a single one of the people I know (who mind you, are almost all low to average income) support that movement (generally, the consensus was "Protesting is fine, but camping in a park doing jackshit for months and not doing anything is just selfish").
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;36491812]You do know that practically every single society that is beyond hunter-gathering relies on property ownership?[/QUOTE]
i see this logical fallacy used a lot in debates these days, let me give you other applications for something similar to this:
"gays have never been allowed to marry for a reason, why should they be now after thousands of years?"
the majority rule doesn't always know what's best for [I]everyone[/I], persecution still exists, unfairness still exists. private property does not ensure that anyone who works gets the best option in life, it ensures that people who start off with a shit-ton of money can work to make a shit ton of more money, and people born into poor lifestyles can work a shit ton to stay in their poor lifestyle.
as long as money is valued as the highest source of power on this planet, people will take a knife to the throat of any person, any country, any starving third world factory worker to ensure their own financial stability. just because every single society believes in it, does not mean it is right.
[QUOTE=Conscript;36492745]So?
Up until relatively recently societies relied on slavery. Private property can be similarly abolished.[/QUOTE]
Except why would you [B]want[/B] to abolish it? Humans need private propriety, they need private riches and they need things to desire.
I might point out that private propriety =/= too low minimum wage, lack of jobs and no social/medical security.
[QUOTE=acds;36495897]Except why would you [B]want[/B] to abolish it? Humans need private propriety, they need private riches and they need things to desire.
I might point out that private propriety =/= too low minimum wage, lack of jobs and no social/medical security.[/QUOTE]
what's wrong with desiring things [i]other[/i] than meaningless 'valuables' and riches? why not create a system where intellect, kindness, fairness and wisdom are valued over all other? humans do not need private property, because the private property you own is meaningless at the end of your life. when you die, would you rather be known for how much of a good you did for humanity rather than how much you stuffed your own pockets at someone else's expense?
anyone with a basic knowledge of human psychology knows that humans do not NEED riches. it is not a requirement that we have evolved into, it is merely a product of your conditioning and environment; the only reason you desire a great deal of wealth is because your parents do, and the internet, television, and radio tells you that you need wealth.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiMv95Z-bow&feature=g-user-u[/media]
this is a video of a man who literally desires nothing other than to help those around him. why is it that in our society, the foundations are not based upon people like him but instead people who are born into billions?
[QUOTE=acds;36495893]It's funny that I make blanket statement when the movement calls itself "the 99%" when it's hardly a tenth of that. Also I don't think all poor people are lazy, but sorry if you protest and camp in a park for a month instead of looking for a job when you are jobless and the more time passes the deeper into debt you go, then yeah you should get off your ass and do something, because protesting won't help your situation (at that point you're just whining to people to give you a job when you've done nothing to deserve it).
Also newsflash: OWS does not represent poor people, at all. They love to call themselves 99% but they aren't even close to that. Not a single one of the people I know (who mind you, are almost all low to average income) support that movement (generally, the consensus was "Protesting is fine, but camping in a park doing jackshit for months and not doing anything is just selfish").[/QUOTE]
Do you think, and this is a crazy idea I know, that these people aren't all lazy selfish shitheads and that, and bear with me here, maybe some of them [I]actually think that there's a problem with the modern American economics system[/I] and are protesting instead of looking for a job because they have genuine principles and want things to change, instead of simply feeding a system that they believe is flawed?
Fucking absurd, right?
[QUOTE=Bobie;36495928]what's wrong with desiring things [i]other[/i] than meaningless 'valuables' and riches? why not create a system where intellect, kindness, fairness and wisdom are valued over all other? humans do not need private property, because the private property you own is meaningless at the end of your life. when you die, would you rather be known for how much of a good you did for humanity rather than how much you stuffed your own pockets at someone else's expense?
anyone with a basic knowledge of human psychology knows that humans do not NEED riches. it is not a requirement that we have evolved into, it is merely a product of your conditioning and environment; the only reason you desire a great deal of wealth is because your parents do, and the internet, television, and radio tells you that you need wealth.
this is a video of a man who literally desires nothing other than to help those around him. why is it that in our society, the foundations are not based upon people like him but instead people who are born into billions?[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with allowing people to desire what they want to desire?
[B]Nothing[/B] stops you from pursuing intellect, kindness, fairness and wisdom. On the other hand you want to abolish private propriety and force people to do without it. Not everyone likes the same things or is made for the same things, nor is it anywhere written that only "spiritual" (let's call them so, you know what I mean) things have meaning. How is a "spiritual" goal different from a material one? Is there a difference if people start killing eachother because of what some ideal tells them to instead of killing eachother for an object? Who is to decide what is important at the end of life? You? It's up to each person, once they are dead it's over, so it's up to them to look back on life and say "I lived as I wanted", not for someone else to decide what they should strive for.
What you are proposing to do is to force your beliefs onto people. You want everyone to strive for the goals you think are best, not thinking that all this is [B]your[/B] opinion. Good and bad don't exist, for someone else your good could be bad, and in their mind they are just as sure of their ideal as you are of yours.
Private propriety does not hinder anyone from being charitable and helping people (take a look at Bill Gates).
[QUOTE=acds;36496113]What's wrong with allowing people to desire what they want to desire?
[B]Nothing[/B] stops you from pursuing intellect, kindness, fairness and wisdom. On the other hand you want to abolish private propriety and force people to do without it. Not everyone likes the same things or is made for the same things, nor is it anywhere written that only "spiritual" (let's call them so, you know what I mean) things have meaning. How is a "spiritual" goal different from a material one? Is there a difference if people start killing eachother because of what some ideal tells them to instead of killing eachother for an object? Who is to decide what is important at the end of life? You? It's up to each person, once they are dead it's over, so it's up to them to look back on life and say "I lived as I wanted", not for someone else to decide what they should strive for.
What you are proposing to do is to force your beliefs onto people. You want everyone to strive for the goals you think are best, not thinking that all this is [B]your[/B] opinion. Good and bad don't exist, for someone else your good could be bad, and in their mind they are just as sure of their ideal as you are of yours.
Private propriety does not hinder anyone from being charitable and helping people (take a look at Bill Gates).[/QUOTE]
it's not about having the [I]choice[/I] to help people, it's how people in the world are born underprivileged because of the existence of capitalism. by ensuring that a chinese baby must work in a factory or an african baby must die of AIDs without a proper roof over his head it is worse than forcing beliefs, its forcing a way of life.
even if you would like private propriety to exist, unfairness in the system should not. the wealth of billions in an individual causes the deaths of millions.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;36495938]Do you think, and this is a crazy idea I know, that these people aren't all lazy selfish shitheads and that, and bear with me here, maybe some of them [I]actually think that there's a problem with the modern American economics system[/I] and are protesting instead of looking for a job because they have genuine principles and want things to change, instead of simply feeding a system that they believe is flawed?
Fucking absurd, right?[/QUOTE]
Never said anything about those people that protested but also worked towards making the situation better.
Also again, they don't want to feed the system that according to them is flawed? What about the other 90% that live in that system? The system works in a certain manner, and protesting is fine, but the only real way to better your situation is working.
Don't like the system and don't want to feed it? Then what the hell are you complaining about not having a job? If you had one you'd be feeding the system.
Of course they can protest the situation, but a protest does not necessarily mean shutting themselves off from the world for a month.
[editline]26th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bobie;36496139]it's not about having the [I]choice[/I] to help people, it's how people in the world are born underprivileged because of the existence of capitalism. by ensuring that a chinese baby must work in a factory or an african baby must die of AIDs without a proper roof over his head it is worse than forcing beliefs, its forcing a way of life.
even if you would like private propriety to exist, unfairness in the system should not. the wealth of billions in an individual causes the deaths of millions.[/QUOTE]
How does private propriety have anything to do with that? That's unevenly distributed wealth to the point where some don't even have the bare minimum, and that can very well be fixed without removing private propriety.
[QUOTE=Conscript;36492745]So?
Up until relatively recently societies relied on slavery. Private property can be similarly abolished.[/QUOTE]
are you fuckign kidding me
slavery and property are different things. one is unjustifiable and we can easily do without, whereas property is a necessity for living in large societies. all attempts to create communes that have collective ownership of things have imploded (israeli kibbutz, drop city, various cults)
[QUOTE=acds;36495897]Except why would you [B]want[/B] to abolish it? Humans need private propriety, they need private riches and they need things to desire.
I might point out that private propriety =/= too low minimum wage, lack of jobs and no social/medical security.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much because having privately owned factories, farms, etc. holds society by the balls and makes the owners instantly more important than most people, who are laborers. It just creates a conflict of interests.
Also, try to distinguish between private property and personal property. Only the latter is used for your own consumption, the other is capital.
[QUOTE=Conscript;36497967]Pretty much because having privately owned factories, farms, etc. holds society by the balls and makes the owners instantly more important than most people, who are laborers. It just creates a conflict of interests.[/QUOTE]
well they are more important
[editline]26th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bobie;36495928]anyone with a basic knowledge of human psychology knows that humans do not NEED riches. it is not a requirement that we have evolved into, it is merely a product of your conditioning and environment; the only reason you desire a great deal of wealth is because your parents do, and the internet, television, and radio tells you that you need wealth.[/QUOTE]
no this is completely fucking wrong please open a textbook
I'm not huge fan of the whole "abolish private property" idea.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36499136]well they are more important[/QUOTE]
Which is his point.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36499136]well they are more important
[editline]26th June 2012[/editline]
no this is completely fucking wrong please open a textbook[/QUOTE]
open a textbook? please, if you're seriously trying to tell me that conditioning does not exist then i feel deep concern for your mental health.
[QUOTE=acds;36496113]What's wrong with allowing people to desire what they want to desire? [/QUOTE]
Because one day someone might desire to take away your god given private property aheeh.
They might even want to murder people haha that would be bad if that happened.
[quote]well they are more important[/quote]
by virtue of private property, yes.
otherwise all they have is their ability to work like anyone else.
[QUOTE=acds;36495893]It's funny that I make blanket statement when the movement calls itself "the 99%" when it's hardly a tenth of that. Also I don't think all poor people are lazy, but sorry if you protest and camp in a park for a month instead of looking for a job when you are jobless and the more time passes the deeper into debt you go, then yeah you should get off your ass and do something, because protesting won't help your situation (at that point you're just whining to people to give you a job when you've done nothing to deserve it).
Also newsflash: OWS does not represent poor people, at all. They love to call themselves 99% but they aren't even close to that. Not a single one of the people I know (who mind you, are almost all low to average income) support that movement (generally, the consensus was "Protesting is fine, but camping in a park doing jackshit for months and not doing anything is just selfish").[/QUOTE]
Holy shit you are ignorant as fuck.
So let me get this straight, all 100% of OWS protesters are unemployed and none of them are looking for jobs and instead are lazy?
Like, are you retarded or something?
[editline]26th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=acds;36495897]Except why would you [B]want[/B] to abolish it? Humans need private propriety, they need private riches and they need things to desire.[/quote]
No, humans need things like oxygen and I can explain to you why.
Why do humans need riches?
Other than because you're a privileged white kid who is afraid of losing your shit to all the jobless poor minorities coming to hang you.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;36503402]Holy shit you are ignorant as fuck.
So let me get this straight, all 100% of OWS protesters are unemployed and none of them are looking for jobs and instead are lazy?
Like, are you retarded or something?
[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure where you pulled out the "100% of the protesters are lazy fucks" (probably out of thin air). No not all OWS protesters are lazy, but as I said there is a difference between protesting and camping for a month or more. The latter is laziness, because in that month you got deeper in debt and lost a lot of valuable time during which you could have bettered your situation (again, I'm referring to those hardcore hippie protesters seen in the video, the kind that sat 2 months in a park doing drugs and expecting something to change due to that).
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;36503402]
[editline]26th June 2012[/editline]
No, humans need things like oxygen and I can explain to you why.
Why do humans need riches?
Other than because you're a privileged white kid who is afraid of losing your shot to all the jobless poor minorities coming to hang you.[/QUOTE]
If you want to go the personal route, I could say you want to abolish private propriety because you have no trust in the fact that you will ever be able to achieve the material riches, so you'd rather no-one else had them. See I can do baseless assumptions as well.
[editline]26th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36499136]well they are more important
[/QUOTE]
They are more important on the working side (as in, they are better at what they do, hence why they are in that position and not someone else), but as humans they are worth as much as the laborers (well that really goes without saying, it all builds upon itself so if you remove the base, which are the laborers, everything crumbles).
[QUOTE=Bobie;36499652]open a textbook? please, if you're seriously trying to tell me that conditioning does not exist then i feel deep concern for your mental health.[/QUOTE]
no I know more about conditioning than you do - it doesn't explain all of human behaviour. we're not purely conditioned to desire status and wealth, it's a fundamental part of human nature
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36504891]no I know more about conditioning than you do - it doesn't explain all of human behaviour. we're not purely conditioned to desire status and wealth, it's a fundamental part of human nature[/QUOTE]
please cite sources that say it is a part of 'human nature' then. give me a source that specifically mentions and links back to scientific evidence that it is encoded in a human to desure status and wealth.
as much as you love to make it known to everyone you know so much, it doesn't matter if you cant back up your own statements.
[editline]edit[/editline]
what would you classify as 'human nature' anyway? talking and walking aren't a part of human nature, they have to be learnt from their peers. much like the opinions you share with us are a product of your environment to this point in your lifetime.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36504891]no I know more about conditioning than you do - it doesn't explain all of human behaviour. we're not purely conditioned to desire status and wealth, it's a fundamental part of human nature[/QUOTE]
It isn't just conditioning, our desire for status and wealth also has a lot to do with our behavioural biology caused by external sources, look up the works of Robert Sapolsky and you will learn this.
I view the 'intrinsic to human nature' argument to be invalid because of this coupled Bobie's previous arguments.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36496182]have imploded (israeli kibbutz)[/QUOTE]
mmm I wouldn't say that...
Then again there is still property ownership on them and this mix allows them to be successful.
[QUOTE=acds;36503553]I'm not sure where you pulled out the "100% of the protesters are lazy fucks" (probably out of thin air). No not all OWS protesters are lazy, but as I said there is a difference between protesting and camping for a month or more. The latter is laziness, because in that month you got deeper in debt and lost a lot of valuable time during which you could have bettered your situation (again, I'm referring to those hardcore hippie protesters seen in the video, the kind that sat 2 months in a park doing drugs and expecting something to change due to that).[/quote]
You're confusing yourself. You're saying they should work instead of protest, then when they protest you say they aren't changing anything by sitting there, then when they work, they STILL aren't changing anything because they're not doing anything.
You're stuck in this little pathetic upper middle class world of thought where if you work you'll become the next Steve Jobs and poverty is 100% voluntary.
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