Dudes in Distress - Men in Video Games - General

The day where I no longer have to look to goddamn Japan to see guys in games/novels/digital media that aren't bold chested and square faced and women that aren't Megan Fox look alikes is the day I gain true happiness.

[QUOTE=elowin;41721599]don't you just love feminist circlejerks i sure know i do[/QUOTE] valuable input, much appreciated

[QUOTE=elowin;41721599]don't you just love feminist circlejerks i sure know i do[/QUOTE] Just stop.

[QUOTE=elowin;41721599]don't you just love feminist circlejerks i sure know i do[/QUOTE] I don't even identify as a feminist, you're just making horrible posts.

[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;41721598]That's what games are, though. Fantasy. What's wrong with allowing creators to design some crazy, over the top character?[/QUOTE] All of the things that Feminists were talking about like unrealistic expectations, I guess. Most of my problem with it is the sexualization of things makes me uncomfortable, it fucks over women a lot, and I don't really like overly masculine/feminine (masculine is worse, though) character designs.

[QUOTE=Jackald;41719570]Feminist Frequency has a habit of cherry-picking games to complain about, Anita makes frequent errors and mistakes, and steals footage of the games from let's players when she was supposed to have raised her $300,000 to buy, record, and edit footage of the games.[/QUOTE] A lot of the "errors" people bring up are either typos or simply because they didn't have the same interpretation of the game that she did. I don't really see how she's cherry-picking, either - she features games that support her position because that's how presenting an argument works, and she also discusses games that could be considered counter to her position, while explaining why she doesn't think they invalidate her argument. That doesn't seem like cherry-picking to me. Buying, yes. She never said the money (which was actually $150,000 and she only asked for $6000) would go to recording or editing footage of the games. [QUOTE=Jackald;41720705]Not that that invalidates her opinion, but it would imply she's not actually played some of the games she's complaining about, not to mention she also tends to make mistakes when talking about videos.[/QUOTE] It doesn't imply anything other than she isn't using her own recorded footage of the games. It makes sense for her to use existing footage where possible over spending time re-playing the game and trying to find the specific bit she wants to talk about. [QUOTE=Jackald;41721309]No, but it'd be a travesty of artists weren't permitted to create those kinds of characters. [/QUOTE] I don't think anyone's arguing that people shouldn't be permitted to do anything, just expressing their opinion on the artistic choices people make. Games aren't just an artistic expression, they're also a sold product, and people are entitled to criticise problems in product that they've bought. [QUOTE=Jackald;41721309]i just don't think it's a purely misogynistic phenomenon, i think it comes down to a lack of imagination and laziness rather than an outright perverse hatred of women.[/QUOTE] Again, no one disagrees with you there, including Sarkeesian. She's not saying it's an intentional scheme to disempower women. [QUOTE=Jackald;41721309]So why do some feminists such as Anita (See her University Dissertation for more details) complain about masculine female characters being (Just a man in disguise) ?[/QUOTE] That's a misinterpretation of her thesis's point. Her argument isn't that there shouldn't be traditionally masculine female characters, but that by only having strong/important female characters with traditionally masculine traits, "masculine" traits are still overvalued and "feminine" traits are still undervalued, even if the character displaying those traits is female. Essentially it's an argument for more variety in character traits, and has nothing to do with objectification.

It saddens me to see how misinformed about game development some of you are, there are a lot of extremism in the thread and although I don't think I will be able to change those opinions I will give some input into the discussion. I will start by saying it's almost insulting how you think all the development teams sits around and the concepts artists goes "How will I make this character more offensive to women?", it simply doesn't work that way. You are accusing everyone that had some part on the development to be misogynist, which is a pretty bold accusation. Things don't work like that at all. As sad as it may be, in the majority of the cases, things work the other direction. There are a lot of market research done and they make a lot of choices based on that. The company must make money so they will make choices based on what players want, if the players want girls with big boobs and guys with huge muscles, some companies will do that, that's the only way they will make money. Educate the players to be interested in a higher variety of character traits, strong female characters etc and companies will develop games with that. So you may ask, but shouldn't companies be the ones to change that opinion? And that's all fine and dandy until you have thousands of jobs and millions of dollars on the line, if companies make a lot of risks they also risk going bankrupt. This doesn't make it impossible to have games that have important female characters and so on, not at all impossible, but the market is still small and the few games that exist already cater most of that market necessity, there's a lot bigger market for games that have stereotyped characters. Another important thing to notice is demographics, it's useless to cherry pick example from demographics that are obviously not for you. How useful is it for me say bad things about the new Bratz game when what I like to play is actions games? How useful is it for me to say bad things about -insert game with dumb characters- when I prefer well crafted female characters? In fewer words, the fastest way to change the market is to be interested in games with well developed female characters. Educate players to also be interested. Some companies have funds to risk and help with this by trying to capture new players (e.g. Valve), and that's awesome, but remember that most don't. It's very unfair to blame all game developers like they were this evil machine that hate women. Game developing is an industry, with many smart people that would love to make more interesting games, but in the end it's the buyers that make the changes. EDIT: As a pratical example of what I mean, instead of funding projects like Anita Sarkeesian kickstarter, where her views are highly criticized from an academic point of view and hardly change anything in the general public, fund for example indie game developers that are willing but not able (funds) to make games with interesting characters, or buy games with that kind of thing! Change the industry by supporting people who actively try to change the industry. Fund what you want to see and you will see it.

[QUOTE=bunguer;41724353]I will start by saying it's almost insulting how you think all the development teams sits around and the concepts artists goes "How will I make this character more offensive to women?", it simply doesn't work that way. You are accusing everyone that had some part on the development to be misogynist, which is a pretty bold accusation. Things don't work like that at all.[/QUOTE] No one said that's how it happened...

[QUOTE=Numpers;41719481]But isn't that a problem with the people in the industry rather than the videogames themselves?[/QUOTE] obviously the people in the industry make the games, thus it has a circular effect [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=bunguer;41724353]It saddens me to see how misinformed about game development some of you are, there are a lot of extremism in the thread and although I don't think I will be able to change those opinions I will give some input into the discussion. I will start by saying it's almost insulting how you think all the development teams sits around and the concepts artists goes "How will I make this character more offensive to women?", it simply doesn't work that way. You are accusing everyone that had some part on the development to be misogynist, which is a pretty bold accusation. Things don't work like that at all. As sad as it may be, in the majority of the cases, things work the other direction. There are a lot of market research done and they make a lot of choices based on that. The company must make money so they will make choices based on what players want, if the players want girls with big boobs and guys with huge muscles, some companies will do that, that's the only way they will make money. Educate the players to be interested in a higher variety of character traits, strong female characters etc and companies will develop games with that. So you may ask, but shouldn't companies be the ones to change that opinion? And that's all fine and dandy until you have thousands of jobs and millions of dollars on the line, if companies make a lot of risks they also risk going bankrupt. This doesn't make it impossible to have games that have important female characters and so on, not at all impossible, but the market is still small and the few games that exist already cater most of that market necessity, there's a lot bigger market for games that have stereotyped characters. Another important thing to notice is demographics, it's useless to cherry pick example from demographics that are obviously not for you. How useful is it for me say bad things about the new Bratz game when what I like to play is actions games? How useful is it for me to say bad things about -insert game with dumb characters- when I prefer well crafted female characters? In fewer words, the fastest way to change the market is to be interested in games with well developed female characters. Educate players to also be interested. Some companies have funds to risk and help with this by trying to capture new players (e.g. Valve), and that's awesome, but remember that most don't. It's very unfair to blame all game developers like they were this evil machine that hate women. Game developing is an industry, with many smart people that would love to make more interesting games, but in the end it's the buyers that make the changes. EDIT: As a pratical example of what I mean, instead of funding projects like Anita Sarkeesian kickstarter, where her views are highly criticized from an academic point of view and hardly change anything in the general public, fund for example indie game developers that are willing but not able (funds) to make games with interesting characters, or buy games with that kind of thing! Change the industry by supporting people who actively try to change the industry. Fund what you want to see and you will see it.[/QUOTE] you don't seem to have a grasp on the basic concepts of misogyny.

If you seriously think what happens to men in videogames is sexualization you are even more ignorant + delusional than I thought, jesus christ. First of all, let's go over what "sexualization" means. It means making characters alluring to the opposite sex. Being male, most artists in the game industry indulge in this when creating female characters, and let's make this very clear: [B]there is nothing wrong with a character being sexual.[/B] Sexuality is a part the human condition and it only makes sense that the characters we create have some in them. Basically, it's another tool for characterization. It becomes problematic when you go from sexualization to pure masturbatory fanservice, which is usually a way to make a character interesting when you have no idea how to write a goddamn human being. Now, on the "sexualization" of male characters. No matter how much you want it to be true, this doesn't happen [I]nearly[/I] often enough to be compared to the portrayal of women in videogames. Most of the examples you guys are bringing up are "ideal men" created by (gasp!) [B]other men[/B]. Those characters are what the artist wants to be, or rather, they are what societal standards dictate men should be: smart, witty, strong, dominant and in peak physical condition. Superman isn't sexualized, nor is Batman, or Captain America. They are characters designed to appeal to men. A male power fantasy. Compare those characters to say, Edward Cullen from Twilight. He's literally what the author considers to be a perfect man and is obviously very appealing to millions of women who are fans of the book. What does Edward Cullen have in common with Batman? Very little. He's lean and proportionate while Batman is a huge, muscled man. He's sensitive and aloof as opposed to Batman's dominant macho man, etc. Ever wondered why The Doctor has so many fangirls? Jack Frost? Legolas? Those are characters that appeal to women. Still not convinced? Let's compare your typical male comic book hero to these (all drawn/created by women): [t]http://www.avasdemon.com/GilProfile.png[/t][t]http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs27/f/2008/176/f/2/The_Doctor_by_totalrandomness.jpg[/t][t]http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/143/c/e/ce185f6f749fd12f5fd7fb7b5c4ef1c6-d50txqi.jpg[/t][t]http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/222/2/c/2c216dfc6d2ec6378871bbb46c00e5ee-d5akuqq.jpg[/t] Picking up a pattern there yet? No? Let me help you out. Their bodies are leaner, their eyes are big and expressive, and the artist tends to favor expressive faces as opposed to the plain stern look most male-designed heroes have (look at the cover art of any game featuring the protagonist in it, i.e. Mass Effect, Gears of War, Metal Gear, etc.). Not only are they drawn differently in terms of proportion and anatomy but the focus is also different, usually drawing attention to the character's face as opposed to his pose. They look [B]nothing[/B] like the characters you are complaining about. In short, stop crying about mainstream male characters in western videogames being sexualized because [I]that's not at all what's happening you stupid bastards.[/I] [editline]ugh[/editline] I apologize if that sounded a little harsh but it infuriates me when people bring up this stupid argument, it's like they've never seen fanart before.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;41724765]No one said that's how it happened...[/QUOTE] I think I will just quote KiteTales here, "To claim that characters were created from sexist stereotypes is to ultimately accuse the artists/designers/programmers/developers•/producers-- everyone who had some part in creating all aspects of that character, of being a misogynist. Unless you want to argue that without any direction, the character just turned into a stereotype all of its own, you are making some very strong accusations about the individuals behind the creation process." In case you are interested, she also talks about other things on this same subject. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZueOCLGt1tw[/url]

[QUOTE=bunguer;41724981]I think I will just quote KiteTales here, "To claim that characters were created from sexist stereotypes is to ultimately accuse the artists/designers/programmers/developers•/producers-- everyone who had some part in creating all aspects of that character, of being a misogynist. Unless you want to argue that without any direction, the character just turned into a stereotype all of its own, you are making some very strong accusations about the individuals behind the creation process." In case you are interested, she also talks about other things on this same subject. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZueOCLGt1tw[/url][/QUOTE] But that's completely wrong. Badly written sexist characters aren't made with the intention of being sexist or oppressive, that's ridiculous. 99% of the time it's the result of very old social stereotypes that have influenced the artist. The developer isn't a mysogynist for making a game with sexist tropes in it, they're just ignorant. Occam's razor still applies here. Besides you're basically saying you can't criticize sub-par writing because it might offend the author, that's stupid. Any smart artist will always welcome criticism, it's the only way to improve one's skills.

[QUOTE=bunguer;41724981]I think I will just quote KiteTales here, "To claim that characters were created from sexist stereotypes is to ultimately accuse the artists/designers/programmers/developers•/producers-- everyone who had some part in creating all aspects of that character, of being a misogynist. Unless you want to argue that without any direction, the character just turned into a stereotype all of its own, you are making some very strong accusations about the individuals behind the creation process." In case you are interested, she also talks about other things on this same subject. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZueOCLGt1tw[/url][/QUOTE] Dude. Misogyny, sexism, patriarchy etc. doesn't describe people who go all "RAWR I HATE WOMEN HOW CAN I MAKE WOMEN ANGRY TODAY". It's a background radiation in society that we're exposed to since we learned to speak in the crib. It results in bad thinking that we can't necessarily notice is bad, since for us it's always been that way.

[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;41725032]But that's completely wrong. [b] Badly written sexist characters aren't made with the intention of being sexist or oppressive, that's ridiculous.[/b] 99% of the time it's the result of very old social stereotypes that have influenced the artist. [b]The developer isn't a mysogynist for making a game with sexist tropes in it,[/b] they're just ignorant. Occam's razor still applies here.[/QUOTE] I disagree with some points, especially the ignorant bit (that's most likely wrong unless you can prove they do this by ignorance, a much more likely scenario is market like I mentioned). The rest of the bold bits is you telling I'm correct. (Yet I received dumb and disagrees so you may want to explain better) [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;41725128]Dude. Misogyny, sexism, patriarchy etc. doesn't describe people who go all "RAWR I HATE WOMEN HOW CAN I MAKE WOMEN ANGRY TODAY". It's a background radiation in society that we're exposed to since we learned to speak in the crib. It results in bad thinking that we can't necessarily notice is bad, since for us it's always been that way.[/QUOTE] I never once said misogyny, sexism etc didn't exist, I just said that games are not trying to be sexist or misogynist, please read my post. ------------------------------- I think it's important to add so there isn't any confusion. I think games are not misogynist by nature, and I think in this subject we won't reach a consensus by arguing, but one thing we have in common though is that ultimately I also want games with more interesting characters, female or male, it's just I think the way to reach this is not the Anita way by criticizing the industry and game developers but by acclaiming games with those characteristics and fund games that can have those characteristics. And this final point is the most important to me and where we seem to have different opinions.

[QUOTE=NuggetWarmer;41716186]It's funny how many people think this is serious. "Perfect Dark is a game that came out in the 80s..." should have been one of the biggest tips since it shows up [B]not even 5 minutes in.[/B][/QUOTE] Yeah I'd hope so considering the video is not even 3 minutes long

I am confuse, what am I looking at here. The beginning started out like a parody of tropes v women, then became so satirical it was in blatant support. meh, back to playing games for me.

[QUOTE=bunguer;41725133] I think it's important to add so there isn't any confusion. I think games are not misogynist by nature, and I think in this subject we won't reach a consensus by arguing, but one thing we have in common though is that ultimately I also want games with more interesting characters, female or male, it's just I think the way to reach this is [b]not the Anita way by criticizing the industry and game developers[/B] but by acclaiming games with those characteristics and fund games that can have those characteristics. And this final point is the most important to me and where we seem to have different opinions.[/QUOTE] I agree with you on all counts except the bolded part. Not because I think Ms. Sarkeesian's analysis is flawless (it isn't) but because criticism is always needed, it's an inextricable part of art in general, an artist just can't move forward without listening to criticism, it's a way to learn from your mistakes so your next work will be superior. Games, as an art form, are no different. Ask any worthwhile artist and they'll tell you the same thing. An artist who shuns criticism will always remain a mediocre artist. We don't want mediocre games.

[QUOTE=ScratchNsniff;41725497]I am confuse, what am I looking at here. The beginning started out like a parody of tropes v women, then became so satirical it was in blatant support. meh, back to playing games for me.[/QUOTE] I think that's what it comes down to. This whole feminism in video games debates are always shit slinging-fests that don't lead anywhere. And are only really distracting us from other problems which are several magnitudes worse. I play video games and that's what I'll do, I'll leave the slacktivism to other people.

[QUOTE=elowin;41720635]and uhh hey most women aren't particularly interested in video games[/QUOTE] what the fuck kind of logic is that "the majority of gamers are men, so let's not even give a shit about women." women make up like, what, almost half of the gaming population? who the fuck are you to say that they don't matter? [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=elowin;41720670]oh wow you're a funny guy playing video games does not mean you're particularly interested in them as in, actually a video game enthusiast, and as in actually plays games that are not, for the lack of a better word, casual in nature.[/QUOTE] well with that logic i could go ahead and say that YOU are not particularly interested in videogames because you haven't played X title and haven't watched Y's series of videos or done Z research in the industry or know that JOHN SMITH of DEVELOPER_STUDIO developed OLD_VIDEOGAME in 1980. [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Jackald;41720786]Anyway, I hate how this whole debate seems to crop up every week in video games. What's wrong with playing as a huge-breasted fantasy woman? I don't see many men complaining about how they feel inadequate compared to the plethora of huge-muscled sex god space marines they play as in video games.[/QUOTE] jesus christ, THIS argument again? "we don't do it so they shouldn't." i swear i should make a bot to auto-post that in every videogame/feminism related thread because somebody ALWAYS says it [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Laserbeams;41721073]It does matter, that's why I asked. You're avoiding the answer. Bioshock does not have to cater to female players just because women play Farmville. And all female discrimination in videogames comes from a lack of female game developers. Of course if we had an equal amount of male and female developers we would have more games everyone can enjoy. [b]You can't force men to make female-friendly games because men have little understanding of what "female-friendly" is[/b][/QUOTE] Female developers would help, but you don't [I]need[/I] them to create good characters, just like you don't need a fucking Centaur on your team to make a well-written centaur character in a videogame. I mean, fucking George RR Martin is an old white dude and he's created some awesome female characters in his books, why can't game developers do that in their games? The industry would benefit from better writers that don't cling to bullshit cliches, or create female characters to fill a dumb cliched role, such as being the "trophy" for the protagonist or jerk-off material for the player.

[QUOTE=zombojoe;41725985]I think that's what it comes down to. This whole feminism in video games debates are always shit slinging-fests that don't lead anywhere. And are only really distracting us from other problems which are several magnitudes worse. I play video games and that's what I'll do, I'll leave the slacktivism to other people.[/QUOTE] Yeah dude, focus on the [B]real[/B] issues, by ignoring them and playing video games while criticizing everyone else for doing the same thing. Keep at it, brother!

lol really FP like who the fuck cares I really dont even see how this argument can get started can someone please enlighten me

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;41727421]why can't game developers do that in their games?[/QUOTE] they can. but even when you have a good writer, you can have a shitty gameplay designer. suddenly well written female characters are useless or have poor stats or become not playable at all, because of a plethora of issues that may crop up during the production of the game. better communication between the writers and the gameplay designers needs to happen and in huge corporations it rarely does, because once one team is done with their part theyre whisked away to another project or to work on DLC for the current project. and even then, the publisher can end up saying that something with the character needs to be changed in order to meet sales expectations. suddenly whole portions of the game are axed and who knows if the female character and what makes her a good, deep character will survive? there's a lot that goes on, and its a perfect system for the maximum profit that has been finely crafted. most developers and publishers are afraid to change that to actually make a game filled with well written, well-rounded characters but may end up seeing lower sales as a result. and thats where the consumer comes into play. so look at that tangled web there. i mentioned four different groups of people that can be involved in [b]whether or not a single character is well written or portrayed[/b]. people want a change and we're slowly changing but games are going to take a huge hit in sales because of it. and that's unfortunate, because the difference between 3 mil sales and 5 mil sales could determine whether a franchise stays alive or not. remember when they said 3mil sales for the new tomb raider was "a failure"? remember when everyone said they wouldn't buy bioshock infinite if elizabeth was up front on the cover? its not just the developers that are to blame. the publishers and the consumers make both pieces of bread of this shit sandwich and we're all together on this. the blame is on us too.

[QUOTE=Numpers;41716790]what's up with videogames now, why is there so much social justice stuff??? isn't it just a hobby and meant to be played for fun?[/QUOTE] no fun allowed video games are 110% super serious shit i must ruin the artistic vision of every game dev with my censorship till it's portraying my views only

[QUOTE=Wii60;41729199]no fun allowed video games are 110% super serious shit i must ruin the artistic vision of every game dev with my censorship till it's portraying my views only[/QUOTE] yawn noones talking about censorship yawn. games can only be fun when they alienate half the human race

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;41729273]yawn noones talking about censorship yawn. games can only be fun when they alienate half the human race[/QUOTE] i just don't like people trying to force change on game devs due to something they don't like. If there's a empty/underdeveloped market in gaming, try to fill it with your gaming ideas. Make a super sweet game based on what you think is a good game. Niche games like that are all over the place. Phil fish got a shitton of bad hate mail shit (I think he's a bad person too) but he still did what he thought was right and made what he believes is a good game. Some people agree that the game is good and some people don't. what matters is that he did what he wanted.

[QUOTE=Wii60;41729331]i just don't like people trying to force change on game devs due to something they don't like. If there's a empty/underdeveloped market in gaming, try to fill it with your gaming ideas. Make a super sweet game based on what you think is a good game. Niche games like that are all over the place.[/QUOTE] except noones forcing change people are discussing issues within the gaming industry, it's still obviously up to the devs' themselves to make changes. [editline]6th August 2013[/editline] i'll agree though, artistic vision takes precedent, except i don't think artistic vision is what game devs' have in mind when they put misogynistic shit in their games i'd say it's more laziness, their own misogyny or as people have pointed out, pandering to a demographic for sales (real artistic integrity right there)

[QUOTE=Wii60;41729331]i just don't like people trying to force change on game devs due to something they don't like. If there's a empty/underdeveloped market in gaming, try to fill it with your gaming ideas. Make a super sweet game based on what you think is a good game. Niche games like that are all over the place.[/QUOTE] Yeah that's cool and all but games don't exist in a vacuum, no form of media or art does. As long as shitty writers keep employing shitty outdated tropes there will be shitty games. No one's talking about censoring anybody, we just want better games that don't alienate other people. Is it so hard to empathize with the people who do have a problem with the way they're portrayed? [editline]also[/editline] Besides "artistic integrity" is more often than not a lame excuse to ignore constructive criticism used by deviantArt kids and Bioware.

[QUOTE=Jackald;41719570] Overall it's an excellent parody of both sides of that argument.[/QUOTE] you are delusional

don't know how a faggot in a fedora got that many funny ratings. thanks for the boxes, i love to play with boxes.

[QUOTE=ScoobyV2;41730712]don't know how a faggot in a fedora got that many funny ratings. thanks for the boxes, i love to play with boxes.[/QUOTE] That's because he's being satirical, not serious.