just not knowing it is in the game at all and then suddenly encountering it could potential cause severe ptsd (in regards to depictions of rape). i think any precaution needed to prevent that is worth whatever minor inconvenience it takes
Hell if anything it's the most likely to cause triggers due to the attention to detail it faces
yes you can't shoot back but it's not like that makes it any less about the war
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859122]just not knowing it is in the game at all and then suddenly encountering it could potential cause severe ptsd (in regards to depictions of rape). i think any precaution needed to prevent that is worth whatever minor inconvenience it takes[/QUOTE]
And what if they skip the splash screens/don't read them? Does that mean developers should add another layer of warnings?
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859118]you do know that Virtual Iraq is a simulation of the war right[/QUOTE]
it is not a war game, it says right there that it is very gradual and it is an experience meant to ease a soldier back into those experiences, so that he/she can properly cope with them, in complete opposition to just having a 3 second countdown timer and then all out war erupting around you.
You preach about all this "well what if they don't see it" and you fail to realize that the same thing can and most likely will happen with your system. If you're not going to do any research on the game you're buying, you're not gonna read some splash screen either.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859129]Hell if anything it's the most likely to cause triggers due to the attention to detail it faces
yes you can't shoot back but it's not like that makes it any less about the war
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
And what if they skip the splash screens/don't read them? Does that mean developers should add another layer of warnings?[/QUOTE]
are you now arguing that these psychologists developing a game to help people cope with ptsd dont know what they are doing?
and i am just saying have one unskippable screen. you cant skip the epilepsy warning screen (on the games that choose to have it) and my... request would to have such a screen function in the same way.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859139]it is not a war game, it says right there that it is very gradual and it is an experience meant to ease a soldier back into those experiences, so that he/she can properly cope with them, in complete opposition to just having a 3 second countdown timer and then all out war erupting around you.[/QUOTE]
It's a very VERY pure war game. It's not an arcade shooter, no, but it's a recreation of reality where else most video games are fictional.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859146]You preach about all this "well what if they don't see it" and you fail to realize that the same thing can and most likely will happen with your system. If you're not going to do any research on the game you're buying, you're not gonna read some splash screen either.[/QUOTE]
i think you will if you can't skip it. there is a possibility that you will miss it, but at least you actually tried rather than just doing the bare minimum, at least you cared to do something that little.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859154]It's a very VERY pure war game. It's not an arcade shooter, no, but it's a recreation of reality where else most video games are fictional.[/QUOTE]
"You know what the patient's seeing, and you can help prompt them through the experience in a very safe and supportive fashion."
compared to call of duty. i dont see how you are making these connections. they are two extremely different experiences.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859149]are you now arguing that these psychologists developing a game to help people cope with ptsd dont know what they are doing?
and i am just saying have one unskippable screen. you cant skip the epilepsy warning screen (on the games that choose to have it) and my... request would to have such a screen function in the same way.[/QUOTE]
No, I'm very pleased with Virtual Iraq and I think it's awesome. I'm just saying you're wrong for not believing its a war game though.
Also, like i said, if you don't read the warning? I've noticed maybe one epilepsy warning in my game playing career.
" He says some therapy sessions begin with the soldier seated in the virtual Humvee, perhaps with the sounds of the wind in the background. Only then are some veterans prepared to to talk about their traumatic experience."
a very pure war game indeed
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859157]i think you will if you can't skip it. there is a possibility that you will miss it, but at least you actually tried rather than just doing the bare minimum, at least you cared to do something that little.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
"You know what the patient's seeing, and you can help prompt them through the experience in a very safe and supportive fashion."
compared to call of duty. i dont see how you are making these connections. they are two extremely different experiences.[/QUOTE]
It's a fucking recreation of modern day Iraq meant to ease them into a sense of "okay this was your reality now let's work with it"
it's meant to be a realistic depiction because that's how it works, they lower you into a recreation of something you existed in, not tossing you into a random jungle in the middle of Venezuela with *PMC name here*
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859162]No, I'm very pleased with Virtual Iraq and I think it's awesome. I'm just saying you're wrong for not believing its a war game though.
Also, like i said, if you don't read the warning? I've noticed maybe one epilepsy warning in my game playing career.[/QUOTE]
if you don't that unfortunate, but it is something. as you well know, all i am suggesting is you do your best to warn people. it could even be in press outside of the game, or after you hit "start new game" a screen with a warning comes up instead of at game launch, anything like that. you could go as far as to have the option to turn off the rape scenes like the way you can turn off gore in some games, etc. there are many options.
See the options menu thing makes sense because then it allows for people who'd just rather not see it to be like "oh sure i dont want it thanks devs"
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859175]It's a fucking recreation of modern day Iraq meant to ease them into a sense of "okay this was your reality now let's work with it"
it's meant to be a realistic depiction because that's how it works, they lower you into a recreation of something you existed in, not tossing you into a random jungle in the middle of Venezuela with *PMC name here*[/QUOTE]
so it does not trigger ptsd but allows the solider to cope with it. that's the difference. extreme violence and mayhem vs. controlled experiences designed to help one deal with ptsd. no different than a rape victim on one hand seeing a depiction of rape in comparison to talking their way through their own experience with a therapist or something similar.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859189]See the options menu thing makes sense because then it allows for people who'd just rather not see it to be like "oh sure i dont want it thanks devs"[/QUOTE]
well, okay, then that's fine! lol. that seems like far more work than adding a splash screen. the only reason i kept suggesting that is because it is the minimum effort required. if you want to do more, then by all means, please do.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859149]are you now arguing that these psychologists developing a game to help people cope with ptsd dont know what they are doing?
and i am just saying have one unskippable screen. you cant skip the epilepsy warning screen (on the games that choose to have it) and my... request would to have such a screen function in the same way.[/QUOTE]
And they would skip it just the same. We have allergy warnings on food in small print, we have epilepsy warnings hidden in the hardware manuals, we have information on triggers or whatever in the rating for the game and these all do perfectly fine. There is no reason to increase the warning to a big bold subheading just because you deem that we might as well.
If someone has this issue or have not discovered it yet it is not the responsibility of the manufacturer or dev to provide for them, it is their own and adequate warnings by any rational judgement are what we currently have. It is pure conjecture to claim that further unneccesary warnings would help more especially when there are far more effective means of helping this issue.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859191]so it does not trigger ptsd but allows the solider to cope with it. that's the difference. extreme violence and mayhem vs. controlled experiences designed to help one deal with ptsd. no different than a rape victim on one hand seeing a depiction of rape in comparison to talking their way through their own experience with a therapist or something similar.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
well, okay, then that's fine! lol. that seems like far more work than adding a splash screen. the only reason i kept suggesting that is because it is the minimum effort required. if you want to do more, then by all means, please do.[/QUOTE]
No see what you're suggestion does nothing but punish the non-existant problem zone by saying "wow you got fucked when you bought this, gonna have rape in it!" and show every other player "hey we've got rape in here, but you already knew that because you're a responsible consumer".
The options menu allows for people who wish to experience the game but do not feel personally comfortable with depictions of rape to do that, allowing for more people to play the game for what it is without being hung up on such a minor part of a game
i really do not agree with the idea of the ESRB being a system to communicate possible triggers within a game. i am only speaking in hypothetical and wishful thinking when i make these recommendations and suggestions, but I think they would be for the best, ultimately.
but why not, why is the ESRB not effective at conveying the fact that there's sexual violence in the game?
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859213]No see what you're suggestion does nothing but punish the non-existant problem zone by saying "wow you got fucked when you bought this, gonna have rape in it!" and show every other player "hey we've got rape in here, but you already knew that because you're a responsible consumer".
The options menu allows for people who wish to experience the game but do not feel personally comfortable with depictions of rape to do that, allowing for more people to play the game for what it is without being hung up on such a minor part of a game[/QUOTE]
all that matters to me is making people more aware of it, by whatever means necessary. and again, i think those people would be happy to know they "got fucked" because it would be far better than being triggered. i am just looking at the positives of the bare minimum. of course the outcome from giving even more options would be even better.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859224]but why not, why is the ESRB not effective at conveying the fact that there's sexual violence in the game?[/QUOTE]
well there are numerous other triggers for other things, but those are things you never see in games, like spousal abuse, and very "real" things like that, which are much more specific. as time goes on, I think we will see those introduced to not only games but all media in some form or another as we progress and better understand the field of mental health.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
ie the intention of the esrb is not to warn people of "triggers" but more for adults to be aware of the general questionable content in the game. typically triggers are far more specific and unless the esrb expanded i dont think it could help with all of them.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859228]all that matters to me is making people more aware of it, by whatever means necessary. and again, i think those people would be happy to know they "got fucked" because it would be far better than being triggered. i am just looking at the positives of the bare minimum. of course the outcome from giving even more options would be even better.[/QUOTE]
Let's run through that scenario here. Someone who is aware they have a severe trigger reaction to this kind of content ignores ESRB and all other media which may inform them of the content, and then complains that it was the developers fault because they didn't include yet another warning which they would likely ignore.
Do you expect people at a cake shop to have giant neon signs with "WARNING: NOT SUITABLE FOR DIABETICS AND CELIACS"?
i feel like there will be some sort of third party social networking based "trigger awareness" system to take care of that issue in media. such a thing doesnt really exist currently, as far as im aware.
It is NOT the manufacturers duty to make people aware of whats in their game past their promotional material and rating, I don't give a rats ass what you personally think is right or wrong, you are asking for more than is required from people. As a system that is flawless in practice ('i personally dont think it's flawless' doesn't count), there have been ZERO accounted incidents where video games have caused a PTSD trigger to a point where it mattered. Let's -pretend- your call of duty article holds any ground and the game actually caused PTSD triggers. Why is it that us as consumers were not aware of it by now, and why is it that YOU as an apparently ardent defender of the argument only just learned of it as well? The fact of the matter is, there's NO evidence that video games are connected to the triggering of PTSD. If there were, we'd have those screens by now and I'd be on your side about adding more warnings, but as it stands your idea is worthless confectionery at best, and you're doing nothing but perpetuating this already dead thread with your constant referrals to "what ifs" while we stay grounded in the reality of the matter
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
A trigger awareness system would be the ESRB with a bunch of the descriptors written off.
If you're really not able to figure it out, the Blood and Gore descriptor means "if you have issues with blood and gore, prolly dont want to play". Sexual violence means the same thing, along with Drugs and Tobacco as well.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41859262]Let's run through that scenario here. Someone who is aware they have a severe trigger reaction to this kind of content ignores ESRB and all other media which may inform them of the content, and then complains that it was the developers fault because they didn't include yet another warning which they would likely ignore.
Do you expect people at a cake shop to have giant neon signs with "WARNING: NOT SUITABLE FOR DIABETICS AND CELIACS"?[/QUOTE]
again, it is not the developers fault or anything, clearly the warning was there. it's just an extra measure. this is not a precaution against being sued or complaints, it is meant only as a warning out of the kindness of the dev's hearts, basically, saying "this might not be for you if..."
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[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859228]
ie the intention of the esrb is not to warn people of "triggers" but more for adults to be aware of the general questionable content in the game. typically triggers are far more specific and unless the esrb expanded i dont think it could help with all of them.[/QUOTE]
The intention of the ESRB is to warn general consumers about what is contained in the game and to ward off people who shouldn't/do not want to play it.
It's a multi-use system that does its job fantastically, if you seriously can't figure out that "spousal abuse" isn't covered under "Intense Violence" or "Sexual Violence" then you have no business playing the game to begin with.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=l l;41859298]Why is it that when the keyboard warriors of Facepunch try to argue for something they always do it with sarcasm and act condescending?[/QUOTE]
because anonymity makes people think they're bulletproof and that they can always win arguments because they can just keep posting till everyone fucks off and they can crown themselves king of the argument.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859267]It is NOT the manufacturers duty to make people aware of whats in their game past their promotional material and rating, I don't give a rats ass what you personally think is right or wrong, you are asking for more than is required from people. As a system that is flawless in practice ('i personally dont think it's flawless' doesn't count), there have been ZERO accounted incidents where video games have caused a PTSD trigger to a point where it mattered. Let's -pretend- your call of duty article holds any ground and the game actually caused PTSD triggers. Why is it that us as consumers were not aware of it by now, and why is it that YOU as an apparently ardent defender of the argument only just learned of it as well? The fact of the matter is, there's NO evidence that video games are connected to the triggering of PTSD. If there were, we'd have those screens by now and I'd be on your side about adding more warnings, but as it stands your idea is worthless confectionery at best, and you're doing nothing but perpetuating this already dead thread with your constant referrals to "what ifs" while we stay grounded in the reality of the matter
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
A trigger awareness system would be the ESRB with a bunch of the descriptors written off.
If you're really not able to figure it out, the Blood and Gore descriptor means "if you have issues with blood and gore, prolly dont want to play". Sexual violence means the same thing, along with Drugs and Tobacco as well.[/QUOTE]
ugh. look, the guy right before you says the same thing, thinking i am implying it is anyone's "duty" to do anything. i've said countless times that this is something i personally think people should do or at least consider for the sake of a potential consumer that may be harmed otherwise.
games causing/triggered ptsd is common sense, because it is media. its no different than those vets going to see saving private ryan. do their well documented attacks "not hold any ground" with you either?
a trigger awareness system would be very comprehensive and VERY specific, that is why it would have to be run by users like a wikipedia as opposed to run by a non-profit like the ESRB. it would have vastly more info than esrb tags
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859304]The intention of the ESRB is to warn general consumers about what is contained in the game and to ward off people who shouldn't/do not want to play it.
It's a multi-use system that does its job fantastically, if you seriously can't figure out that "spousal abuse" isn't covered under "Intense Violence" or "Sexual Violence" then you have no business playing the game to begin with.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
because anonymity makes people think they're bulletproof and that they can always win arguments because they can just keep posting till everyone fucks off and they can crown themselves king of the argument.[/QUOTE]
how is this post not condescending, if not rude and mean?
Because I'm stating how things are, rude/mean are reserved for subjective statements.
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it really makes me legitimately sad that i get called a "troll" or what have you when i am just talking about how i feel and very plainly stating my opinions. i am sorry if i come off as sarcastic, but PLEASE understand i think probably everyone i talked to today (with the exception of one person) is probably a good person and I hold nothing against them. there's really no need to be so aggro, no need to act like there are "sides" or like are fighting some kind of war. its the fucking internet! lets be friends! jeez lol
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;41859327]Because I'm stating how things are, rude/mean are reserved for subjective statements.[/QUOTE]
i dont see how what you are saying is objective, but okay
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859228]well there are numerous other triggers for other things, but those are things you never see in games, like spousal abuse, and very "real" things like that, which are much more specific. as time goes on, I think we will see those introduced to not only games but all media in some form or another as we progress and better understand the field of mental health.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
ie the intention of the esrb is not to warn people of "triggers" but more for adults to be aware of the general questionable content in the game. typically triggers are far more specific and unless the esrb expanded i dont think it could help with all of them.[/QUOTE]
As stated in the dictionary definition he used, a trigger can be anything from flat out rape to a particular smell. You can't accommodate all of this and another trigger warning for people who should be seeking help rather than consuming dubious media that may set them off is just absurd.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859277]again, it is not the developers fault or anything, clearly the warning was there. it's just an extra measure. this is not a precaution against being sued or complaints, it is meant only as a warning out of the kindness of the dev's hearts, basically, saying "this might not be for you if..."[/QUOTE]
Again "Do not attempt to stop chainsaw with your hands or genitals". You can't safetyproof or idiotproof everything and at a certain point it isn't rational to expect it.
People with nut allergies have to deal with "May contain traces of nuts", do you think any sensible person would go into a game about ultraviolence and think nothing bad could happen?
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41859315]ugh. look, the guy right before you says the same thing, thinking i am implying it is anyone's "duty" to do anything. i've said countless times that this is something i personally think people should do or at least consider for the sake of a potential consumer that may be harmed otherwise.
games causing/triggered ptsd is common sense, because it is media. its no different than those vets going to see saving private ryan. do their well documented attacks "not hold any ground" with you either?
a trigger awareness system would be very comprehensive and VERY specific, that is why it would have to be run by users like a wikipedia as opposed to run by a non-profit like the ESRB. it would have vastly more info than esrb tags
[/QUOTE]
War games are mostly fictional creations involving a fight that never happened using weapons and vehicles that tend to not exist in their entirety, they also lend themselves to a more ridiculous and cinematic experience akin to a bourne film.
Saving Private Ryan was a huge film created to realistically depict a very real event, taking care to make sure every last detail on uniforms and weapons were accurate to history
there's a huge margin that you are not paying attention to
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