[QUOTE=01271;52748119]My example of someone who was opposing the march wasn't good enough. Sorry. The march and the nazis are taunting people to come fight them and it's a win if they do (and they're angry) and if they don't. The nazis will use violence and fear on those who aren't organized enough. They're domestic terrorists that don't earn the title of domestic terrorists because they're white.
They have more coordination than pop-up home defenders.[/QUOTE]
We don't disagree here, but I remain unconvinced that Antifa are justified to do whatever they want just because Nazis are also violent and organized.
[QUOTE=01271;52748119]Also what happened to
from [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php...4#post52573264[/url]
It's not like anything changed, you still don't like nazis but you should try on the aspect of "this is a part of what opposition to nazis entails, this is what we get for now".[/QUOTE]
The United States Federal Government has actual people in place who are supposed to deal with far-right hate groups. The violent far-left are not those people.
[QUOTE=01271;52748119]They lost money and dignity and that's bad. It's extra pressure for the thing not to happen again which is good. Weighing that really depends on what is being protested which is why I picked a specific example.[/QUOTE]
Somehow I doubt you'd say that if someone set your car on fire to prove a point against Nazis, but whatever.
[QUOTE=01271;52748119]If you weren't just making fun of me and the nazis' purpose was to stop antifa and antifa's goal was to kill you then that would be a good justification.[/QUOTE]
No it wouldn't. Not even a hypothetical situation where Antifa actually wanted to kill me personally would be a good enough reason for me to support Nazis. That's my point.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52748147]
The United States Federal Government has actual people in place who are supposed to deal with far-right hate groups. The violent far-left are not those people.[/QUOTE]
They're there for the protest.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52748147]
Somehow I doubt you'd say that if someone set your car on fire to prove a point against Nazis, but whatever.[/QUOTE]
I'd cry and feel like shit for weeks. I would think about what I said today and weigh what point my car contributed to and probably be super pissed even if it was for a "good cause" which is part of the point of breaking it and I would make the insurance claim that would be counted as part of the total damage cost of the event.
The cost of all the cars and damage + my and others being pissed off and calling for financial help to pay off the deductible and bans for marches of that sort making the news would be taken into account later in the mayor's office, in the nearby town's offices, in corporations and they would change some of their policies like "wow that town got trashed we shouldn't have nazi rallies"
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52748147]
No it wouldn't. Not even a hypothetical situation where Antifa actually wanted to kill me personally would be a good enough reason for me to support Nazis. That's my point.[/QUOTE]
If someone wants you dead and is building a movement for it, and the other side was doing bad things to stop them and it was working imo it should be appreciated.
If you don't think they're doing it right ok, if you don't think it's good in concept then we have a disagreement in terminal values.
For doing it right it may be ugly but it does work since the nazis are turning on each other after charlottesville and there's a bunch of infighting among them thanks to one of the organizers lying about the ability and willingness of the police to separate them from the protesters.
There's also the battle of cable street from the 1930s that's credited with routing the nazi movement in britain. Battles work.
[QUOTE=01271;52747089]James Damore called himself @firedfortruth and toured the dumbest right wing talk shows while citing the red pill documentary after being fired so I think they might have been on to something.
There are justifications for antifa.
1. They stand in front of the peaceful protest.
Why is this good? They protect the protesters, ideally not getting baited. Bait response and PR is probably their weakest point and unlikely to change due to not being a real organization.
2. If there wasn't a protest, there would still be a protest.
How would people react if nazis were marching down the street? They'll either be scared into their homes (successful march showing the power of white supremacy) or some of them will come out, get the shit beat out of them by nazis if they're black or if they tell the nazis they suck (successful march).[/QUOTE]
I'm going to dispel this by referencing the nazi march in Gothenburg which happened last week. 600 nazis were marching, the biggest number seen in Sweden for a long time, and 14000 Swedes counter-protested. Only a fraction of them were antifa. People have no problem standing up against Nazis.
Antifa instigated violence as usual. They broke through the police lines, attacking police to stand in the designated road for the march. This is not peaceful protesting. Some Swedes had enough and tried to stop antifa from pulling their shit so antifa responded by attacking the people counterprotesting.
[video=youtube;mTf8Y4XiUVQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTf8Y4XiUVQ[/video]
I think previous posters have showed why your other two examples are bad.
[QUOTE=maeZtro;52748603]I'm going to dispel this by referencing the nazi march in Gothenburg which happened last week. 600 nazis were marching, the biggest number seen in Sweden for a long time, and 14000 Swedes counter-protested. Only a fraction of them were antifa. People have no problem standing up against Nazis.
Antifa instigated violence as usual. They broke through the police lines, attacking police to stand in the designated road for the march. This is not peaceful protesting. Some Swedes had enough and tried to stop antifa from pulling their shit so antifa responded by attacking the people counterprotesting.
[video=youtube;mTf8Y4XiUVQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTf8Y4XiUVQ[/video]
I think previous posters have showed why your other two examples are bad.[/QUOTE]
That's a great source:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/lufniC6.jpg[/img]
Nearly all of them are one-sided videos about antifa or muslims doing bad stuff, they have titles like "Europe is burning" or "The Patriot Report with Red Pill Phil".
[url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41454707[/url]
[QUOTE]The Nordic Resistance Movement (NMR) group had planned a march through the city of Gothenburg on Saturday.
Scuffles broke out between police and the shield-carrying NMR group when, police said, members attempted to deviate from the agreed route.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Some Swedish media outlets reported that the scuffles broke out after stones were thrown by counter-protestors, prompting the attempt by NMR members to break police lines.
Officials said the permit for the demonstration expired at 15:00 local time (13:00 GMT). Police used vehicles and mounted units to contain rally participants for some time, before demonstrators returned the way they came under heavy police escort.[/QUOTE]
What actually happened is that the neo-nazi group had pre-planned the march with police. The permitted time expired and police units were sent in to arrest the neo-nazis who were now illegally demonstrating. Some counter-demonstrators/antifa then threw stones at the neo-nazi group for some unknown reason which the neo-nazis used as an excuse to charge the police line. The actual clash was between riot police and the NMR (the neo-nazi group) who were carrying shields which they were using as weapons to attack police.
[url]https://www.thelocal.se/20170930/gothenburg-neo-nazi-demonstration-ends-after-hours-of-unrest[/url]
[QUOTE]Several hundred NRM supporters began the march along the route for which authorities issued permission, but several protestors tried to break out of the designated area near the Ica Focus shopping mall and Svenska Mässan conference centre, which was hosting a Book Fair on Saturday.
Several of the protestors who tried to break through police lines were arrested, including NMR leader Simon Lindberg, reports TT.
Two hours after the demonstration was scheduled to disperse, the NMR, waving banners and surrounded by police, left the area near the Ica Focus shopping mall and Svenska Mässan conference centre in central Gothenburg.
The group returned to the starting point of the march, according to the report.
Road blocks in the city have since been lifted.
The neo-Nazi organisation’s spokesperson Pär Öberg said in the group’s own online broadcast of the demonstration that he regretted that the demonstration could not be completed.
Öberg said that he expected “this will be the last time [NMR] will ask for permission” to demonstrate.[/QUOTE]
Even before this event happened, NMR supporters were breaking the law, going outside of the marching route and harassing people, which might have been the cause of stones being thrown. One of the leaders of the NMR group was arrested for instigating the violence. Now they're threatening to march again without permission.
[url]http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6787974[/url]
[QUOTE]The NRM seeks to put an end to democracy and immigration, repatriate foreigners and remove LGBTQ rights. They also deny the Holocaust and propagate the myth of global Jewish domination.
Last winter, three men with links to the NRM carried out bomb attacks in Gothenburg – two of which were aimed at refugee housing. Radio Sweden found that Saturday's march is causing worry among the local Jewish community.[/QUOTE]
The NMR have also carried out bomb attacks, which have been aimed at refugee housing. They're domestic terrorists, not peaceful protestors.
I don't know how much more clearly I can demonstrate how stupid this false narrative is of "black-clad antifa thugs attack peaceful protestors" is.
Let me once again rephrase that I disagree with antifa's violent behaviour and I think it's counterproductive and that they are idiots generally-speaking. This doesn't mean that I think it's okay to spread misleading information in order to make violent neo-nazis and domestic terrorists seem like the good guys.
This case in Gothenburg follows the usual situation where a neo-nazi group does threatening things in order to tempt the antifa group into doing something violent, which the neo-nazi group uses as an excuse to commit violence because they know that antifa will be blamed for it no matter what.
I think rutolfus puts it really well:
[QUOTE=rutolfus;52747322]
Even with these justifications I think Antifa is doing a mistake, if they keep fighting the nazis with violence then the later ones will use this to their advantage to make them look like the victims, a pretty cowardly move that sadly tends to work surprisingly well, and the media takes advantage of it.[/QUOTE]
I also think it's really dissonant that people will go "Hitler was bad but he did good things like build roads" and not have even a single positive thing to say about the modern day people fighting his ideology.
[QUOTE=01271;52749137]I also think it's really dissonant that people will go "Hitler was bad but he did good things like build roads" and not have even a single positive thing to say about the modern day people fighting his ideology.[/QUOTE]
I mean that's just basic math - even if hitler volunteered at the SPCA and spent his free time planning programs to help the time I'd still hate him way more than someone who hasn't particularly done much for anybody or anything. The difference is I don't consider antifa the people "fighting his ideology". I don't agree that they're the difference between an american flag with a swastika on it and a nazi-free society. If anything they're harming way more than they could ever be helping
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