• An Open Letter To Valve (On VR)
    79 replies, posted
[QUOTE=bitches;51177955]Valve only allowing their own OpenVR project to connect to their hardware device is the definition of a closed peripheral, even if it is open source. My Linux-only monitor comparison is spot on. As for optimizations in VR, you're blatantly wrong. Look up ATW and ASW; games running on the Oculus runtime have massive performance gains.[/QUOTE] OpenVR is open software, the Vive is open hardware, it looks like Valve is the open one here. Whereas the Rift SDK is all closed code, no HDK, etc. Also, ATW and ASW are cheats, they aren't perf optimization. They're way to cheat when you can't render in time for the next vsync. Read what I posted earlier about the GDC talks, they actually mention these methods in the presentations. [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO7G38_pxU4"]Talk 1[/URL], [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdL3WC_oBO4"]Talk 2[/URL]
[QUOTE=Firetornado;51178423] [B] [U]Or release anything half life related.[/B][/U][/QUOTE] From all accounts, they're working on it, its just taking awhile (Finale of HL2 story + Aperture is involved + Portal became a phnomenon + Source 2 + Valves usual perfectionist, drawn out dev cycles = long dev cycle). I mean i dont know when it'll be out but hey. [QUOTE=Firetornado;51178423]or publish the fucking tf2 comic[/QUOTE] Im pretty sure the artist for the TF2 comics (who im pretty sure is working by his/her(?) lonesome on the art and comics can take awhile to do) isnt involved in developing technology for VR or the games. [QUOTE=Firetornado;51178423]or the various beta gamemodes that never came out[/QUOTE] Hardware Devs =/= Software Devs. [QUOTE=Firetornado;51178423]Like mentioned before[/QUOTE] Hardware Devs =/= Software Devs. [QUOTE=Firetornado;51178423]or FIX competitive[/QUOTE] Hardware Devs =/= Software Devs. [QUOTE=Firetornado;51178423]or release source2[/QUOTE] Oh yes please do rush the engine out the door in a buggy state. Bro come on they havent even announced a game for it yet. [QUOTE=Firetornado;51178423]Good point, my argument wasn't well thought out. I still think vr isn't gonna catch on though, too pricey and gimmicky[/QUOTE] They say that about a lot of things that end up being innovative and successful. [editline]9th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=rndgenerator;51178440]No point, none of that brings in as much money as hats and sprays do(will do)[/QUOTE] Every time someone brings this up it just makes me wonder why they havent fired everyone.
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51178753]OpenVR is open software, the Vive is open hardware, it looks like Valve is the open one here. Whereas the Rift SDK is all closed code, no HDK, etc. Also, ATW and ASW are cheats, they aren't perf optimization. They're way to cheat when you can't render in time for the next vsync. Read what I posted earlier about the GDC talks, they actually mention these methods in the presentations. [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO7G38_pxU4"]Talk 1[/URL], [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdL3WC_oBO4"]Talk 2[/URL][/QUOTE] The Vive is not open hardware. They require people to use OpenVR to be allowed to commercially offer games using their headset. That isn't open at all.
[QUOTE=bitches;51179246]The Vive is not open hardware. They require people to use OpenVR to be allowed to commercially offer games using their headset. That isn't open at all.[/QUOTE] Where does it say this, I have never been able to find any license that says this. Furthermore, OpenVR has no GPL or copyleft clause, you can use it however you want, it's not like it cripples or contaminates your code. [URL="https://github.com/ValveSoftware/openvr/blob/master/LICENSE"]This is the OpenVR License:[/URL] [quote]Copyright (c) 2015, Valve Corporation All rights reserved. Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met: 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. 2. 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steam vr supports a bunch of VR headsets [editline]9th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=bitches;51179246]The Vive is not open hardware. They require people to use OpenVR to be allowed to commercially offer games using their headset. That isn't open at all.[/QUOTE] is this just random valve hatred or do you have a way to base this claim? and why would this matter valve isn't restricting openvr behind closed doors what
[QUOTE=glitchvid;51179304]Where does it say this, I have never been able to find any license that says this. Furthermore, OpenVR has no GPL or copyleft clause, you can use it however you want, it's not like it cripples or contaminates your code. [URL="https://github.com/ValveSoftware/openvr/blob/master/LICENSE"]This is the OpenVR License:[/URL] [URL="https://developer3.oculus.com/licenses/pc-3.2/"]And Oculus VR Rift SDK:[/URL] I dunno about you, but it seems to me the Oculus license seems a bit more restrictive.[/QUOTE] You've still not understood the difference between API software and headset hardware. The OpenVR [I]software[/I] is open, and Oculus's development software is not. However, Valve does not allow the Vive [I]headset[/I] to be used with software other than the OpenVR project that they oversee. [QUOTE=Map in a box;51179742]steam vr supports a bunch of VR headsets [editline]9th October 2016[/editline] is this just random valve hatred or do you have a way to base this claim? and why would this matter valve isn't restricting openvr behind closed doors what[/QUOTE] Would you support a monitor that requires Linux be used, just because Linux is open source?
[QUOTE=bitches;51180534]You've still not understood the difference between API software and headset hardware. The OpenVR [I]software[/I] is open, and Oculus's development software is not. However, Valve does not allow the Vive [I]headset[/I] to be used with software other than the OpenVR project that they oversee. [/QUOTE] 1. Where does it say this? 2. If the API is completely open, why does it matter anyway? [QUOTE=bitches;51180534] Would you support a monitor that requires Linux be used, just because Linux is open source?[/QUOTE] You're basically getting mad that a monitor developer wants to use DisplayPort. [editline]later[/editline] You're saying the Vive isn't open, but their implementation on both the hardware and software side are completely open and available to use however you want.
[QUOTE=Rahu X;51173569]As much as I want Steam VR to succeed over Oculus, Woodsie is hitting the point right on the head. The key to increasing adoption of VR is to entice more renown developers to make games for VR platforms, not to let just anyone with an installation of the free edition of Unity put their half baked ideas onto the marketplace. I know Valve's stance is that smaller indie teams seem to be making the most creative ideas (which is true to some extent), and they want to give them an environment to flourish in, but when you have the floodgates constantly open with services like Greenlight and Early Access, all you're going to end up doing is tarnishing the name of Steam VR and/or the HTC Vive. If this continues, part of me fears that Steam VR will be viewed as "that VR platform with the shitty games" instead of "a quality VR platform." Outside of DOOM VR and Fallout VR, I think the only hope that Valve has of getting more people to buy a Vive is to make a Steam VR exclusive game for it themselves. Something big and interesting.[/QUOTE] honestly, that's what PSVR is going to do i think. HTC Vive is built for PC enthusiasts and the games reflect that. PSVR on the other hand, PSVR is built for consumers and if all goes well, it'll be an incredible change in the market. they're providing two completely different, [B]completely required[/B] perspectives into the world of VR, and each one has their own benefits. I think we'll see a lot of that innovation leak into the consumer world from the Vive, while the Vive will always be "the cutting edge" but really hard to grasp and use if you're not an enthusiast who's willing to drop thousands of dollars on equipment and time. Like i said, if things go well with the PSVR, the VR industry as a whole will really benefit from it.
Speaking of, anyone got video of DOOM VR or Fallout VR? Ive been reading and hearing about them but i cant find any video of either.
[QUOTE=bitches;51180534]You've still not understood the difference between API software and headset hardware. The OpenVR [I]software[/I] is open, and Oculus's development software is not. However, Valve does not allow the Vive [I]headset[/I] to be used with software other than the OpenVR project that they oversee. Would you support a monitor that requires Linux be used, just because Linux is open source?[/QUOTE] But the difference is, this doesn't require a single thing like Linux. If you can point me to a resource disproving glitchvid who proved that Valve doesn't require OpenVR to be used for vive (why wouldn't you use an updating software that is open anyway? what are you trying to prove?)
[QUOTE=AaronM202;51180956]Speaking of, anyone got video of DOOM VR or Fallout VR? Ive been reading and hearing about them but i cant find any video of either.[/QUOTE] it hasn't been released yet, it's only in production and i think they gave a date of 2017.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;51180979]it hasn't been released yet, it's only in production and i think they gave a date of 2017.[/QUOTE] Ah, damn. How do the controllers work exactly anyway? They dont have steam controller esque track pads do they? Im looking at pictures of them and they look like trackpads but i'd imagine movement would be a lot simpler if that was the case unless im mistaken.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;51181004]Ah, damn. How do the controllers work exactly anyway? They dont have steam controller esque track pads do they? Im looking at pictures of them and they look like trackpads but i'd imagine movement would be a lot simpler if that was the case unless im mistaken.[/QUOTE] which controllers? vive or oculus? vive has trackpads that are just like the steam controller though a bit less well produced (they're the same design but manufactured differently by htc i believe), and the oculus has motion sensing controllers similar to the wii nunchuck, only with finger sensors, so more range of movement via that. and honestly I'm not sure how the hell they're gonna manage VR in fallout or doom, doom especially with it's fast paced movement. if they go the route of early oculus experiments ala tf2 or hl2, it'll be gross honestly. never liked that style of movement and still don't now that i've seen how well the vive does it. most vive games use a teleportation locomotion that sounds a lot more disorienting than it actually is (you point the controller at a place and teleport there) and comes very naturally.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;51181167]which controllers? vive or oculus? vive has trackpads that are just like the steam controller though a bit less well produced (they're the same design but manufactured differently by htc i believe), and the oculus has motion sensing controllers similar to the wii nunchuck, only with finger sensors, so more range of movement via that.[/QUOTE] Wait, really? Are they only menu dials? Because i cant think of a reason why they wouldnt be used for movement otherwise. [QUOTE=Gamerman12;51181167]and honestly I'm not sure how the hell they're gonna manage VR in fallout or doom, doom especially with it's fast paced movement. if they go the route of early oculus experiments ala tf2 or hl2, it'll be gross honestly. never liked that style of movement and still don't now that i've seen how well the vive does it. most vive games use a teleportation locomotion that sounds a lot more disorienting than it actually is (you point the controller at a place and teleport there) and comes very naturally.[/QUOTE] Dont know about Fallout, but ive read that Doom actually slows into bullet time when you go to move, you point where you want to move, and you flashstep/superspeed over to it instead of teleporting, which is a pretty good sounding idea.
am i the only one who thinks his voice is incredibly monotone? i almost fell asleep watching.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;51181349]Wait, really? Are they only menu dials? Because i cant think of a reason why they wouldnt be used for movement otherwise. they can be anything you want but yeah they're basically menu dials. most people just use them as buttons for teleportation. Dont know about Fallout, but ive read that Doom actually slows into bullet time when you go to move, you point where you want to move, and you flashstep/superspeed over to it instead of teleporting, which is a pretty good sounding idea.[/QUOTE] the number one rule of vr at this point should be "do not move the player smoothly without the player's full control of the movement." though i'll give a pass if you're sitting down, usually that helps with the motion sickness (which makes sense considering the game's nature of being on PSVR first.) but for instance, for almost everyone i've tried it with, chunks and it's rollercoasters are incredibly disorienting the split second you step into them if you're standing up, but are bearable if you're sitting down.
I think I'd need one of those motion chairs like the roller coaster sim at chuck e cheese if I was gonna do that
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;51181454]the number one rule of vr at this point should be "do not move the player smoothly without the player's full control of the movement." though i'll give a pass if you're sitting down, usually that helps with the motion sickness (which makes sense considering the game's nature of being on PSVR first.) but for instance, for almost everyone i've tried it with, chunks and it's rollercoasters are incredibly disorienting the split second you step into them if you're standing up, but are bearable if you're sitting down.[/QUOTE] Hm. Need to partner up with that Virtuix Omni shit then.
[QUOTE=bitches;51177600]Oculus has been doing really well on developing major optimizations. They just announced a huge one this past week. If Valve wasn't making their hardware peripheral a closed one, Vive users would be enjoying those same benefits right now.[/QUOTE] Optimizations don't mean open source friendliness, games are optimized for Nvidia cards but try running them on an AMD and you'll see your frames drop faster than a cat pouncing a laser dot.
[QUOTE=Firetornado;51178423] Good point, my argument wasn't well thought out. I still think vr isn't gonna catch on though, too pricey and gimmicky[/QUOTE] If "Too pricey" was ever a good argument ever for tech not catching on then we would have never had a lot of thing. Just look at our transition out of CRT monitors to the superior and now cheap thin LED/LCD/ETC monitors. 1080p screens were expensive and then they became standard. 4k screens were way the fuck more expensive, and they're becoming standard. There's going to be a day where 1080p is replaced by 2160p just like 1080p replaced 720p. You aren't going to find as many 1080p monitors as you do today once 4k becomes the norm too. VR is expensive, and it'll get less expensive in time. Eventually we'll get higher res headsets at affordable prices. Full room scale may even eventually be only a 400$ cost with controllers included at 2160p resolution, within 5 years. People are buying it and continuing to buy it and that's how it'll get there. [editline]10th October 2016[/editline] Hell, just look at phones. Smart phones are as powerful as laptops of the past, if not more powerful than desktops of the past. VR is only going to get cheaper and more accessible until it goes from 'a dumb fad and gimmick' to a normal thing.
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