[QUOTE=ADT;44308178]What I find funny is that it's far more easier to feminists/SJ people to complain on the Internet all day (as they believe they hold any kind of influence) instead of making their way into whichever industry and thus striving to the top in order to "fix the issues" and to make their own stuff in return.[/QUOTE]
Can't tell you how often I've heard men say, "women should just make games themselves if they want to change the gaming scene." And when they do, women are cunts and bitches who shouldn't be making games. Shifting goalposts! As soon as women make games, "oh, they're not [I]real [/I]games".
[B]Case in point![/B] the /v/idya game awards and [I]this very thread[/I]... "lol gone homo" "not a real game" etc... and also your sly supposition that "feminists/SJWs" do not have any talent...
[editline]21st March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jackald;44307964]You're damned if you do, damned if you don't and basically men should just feel bad because fuck men. Not that I wanna go all r/mensrights on this, but seriously, please seperate tumblr feminists from real feminists and those feminists from women's rights activists, some of the world's activists are actually doing something important rather than bitching about video games.[/QUOTE]
So... we can't complain about video games or representation in media because people in other countries have it worse? That's a very shoddy argument...
[QUOTE=Jackald;44307964][editline] EDIT [/editline] Unless the character is a lesbian and/or not white. Then that character gets a free pass (See Gone Home and Last of Us for details, you would not believe how much tumbles bitched about Ellie until that DLC where she kissed another girl)[/QUOTE]
I have literally not heard about that Ellie stuff once and I follow quite a lot of people on Tumblr. Are you sure you're not making that up? :)
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44309543]As soon as women make games, "oh, they're not [I]real [/I]games".
[B]Case in point![/B] the /v/idya game awards and [I]this very thread[/I]... "lol gone homo" "not a real game" etc...[/QUOTE]
Both men and women are involved in the development of pretty many games, including Gone Home, so I don't see how women being involved in its development would be the reason why it is getting made fun of.
so how is setting up G.A.Y. F.A.P. going
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;44305277]so raiden represents feminity, not Olga or Fortune, the two actual women
and because he isn't like Snake, he's automatically a more feminine character, and because of that he demonstrates men don't like to play feminine characters
I'm going to make a controversial judgement call, but how about this
maybe the reason people want to play as Snake in MGS isn't because they only want to play as big strong manly men, maybe it's because they want to play as a character capable of making logical decisions and having an impact on the story, and not an incompetent doof[/quote]
a.) olga is decidedly masculine, it's part of her character design
b.) neither olga nor fortune are the player character. we are talking about the hero complex and the masturbatory power fantasy that are male player characters.
c.) once again, being an illogical doof that is incapable of changing anything is a trait that is stereotypically aligned with women. how many times have you heard "she's just being emotional?"
d.) another perfect example (that I feel shouldn't be controversial) of this exact effect is why people [I]hate[/I] Metroid: Other M. Because Samus, a strong female character, suddenly is turned into a lovey dovey completely incapable character that faints at all crucial points in the story and needs to be saved by her boy toy.
[quote]and last I checked, being an incompetent doof is not a uniquely female trait. It certainly isn't the norm for women in MGS.
And there's a much simpler term for "relative deprevation" in art. It's called pulling a bait and switch. And the reason people are frustrated isn't because they're "transitioning from a 'hard' male to a 'whiny' male", it's because they're robbed of catharsis and immersion in the world. It's a pretty simple rule of storytelling.[/QUOTE]
being an incompetent doof is [I]not[/I] a uniquely female trait, you're right - but being emotional and illogical are some of the main stereotypes associated with women. you can pretend that they don't exist all you like, but they do, and have, for a long time. all of the negative aspects of raiden are generally associated with his character being more feminine. they just are.
and re:relative deprivation vs the bait and switch, ONCE AGAIN perfect example of why it's a power complex. why does your character not being as hardcore and badass drag you out of the world? suddenly, the player character isn't satisfying your desire as a player to be infallible and awesome, now you've got flaws, and what's worse, those flaws are [I]feminine[/I], ewwww
is everyone who plays metal gear super badass? fuck no, so why should their player character being super badass enhance their immersion?
i should also note mgs2 is my fav mgs lol
Misread
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44309543]Can't tell you how often I've heard men say, "women should just make games themselves if they want to change the gaming scene." And when they do, women are cunts and bitches who shouldn't be making games. Shifting goalposts! As soon as women make games, "oh, they're not [I]real [/I]games".
[B]Case in point![/B] the /v/idya game awards and [I]this very thread[/I]... "lol gone homo" "not a real game" etc... and also your sly supposition that "feminists/SJWs" do not have any talent...[/QUOTE]
Why are you cherry picking gone home when there are several games written by women like Uncharted or The Last of Us which have gotten praise. It really doesn't matter who wrote the story, it matters if the story was good. Gone Home was extremely sub par as an exploration game and it relied on it's story to carry it but it's story had a very black and white stance on what it explored and really didn't do much to flesh out it's characters, at least that's what I thought.
I mean one of my favorite games and favorite game stories of all time, Soul Reaver, was written by Amy Hennig, whom also worked as designer, writer and general creative direction on Uncharted.
So yeah please don't give me that bullshit about how gamers are inclined to hate women, Gone Home isn't hated because it's made by a women or exploring NEW RISKY ISSUES FOR VIDEO GAMES(TM). It get's it's hate because it was overly ambitious and underwhelming. If you want an actual discussion try not to treat the other party like they are children, you might learn they actually have reasons to like or not like something.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44309543]Can't tell you how often I've heard men say, "women should just make games themselves if they want to change the gaming scene." And when they do, women are cunts and bitches who shouldn't be making games. Shifting goalposts! As soon as women make games, "oh, they're not [I]real [/I]games".
[B]Case in point![/B] the /v/idya game awards and [I]this very thread[/I]... "lol gone homo" "not a real game" etc... and also your sly supposition that "feminists/SJWs" do not have any talent...
[/QUOTE]
Expect no one does that, I have literally never seen anyone discredit women from the video games industry, just because they are women.
Of course Unless we are talking about those developers who put their agenda in front of focusing on good games, in which case, you will be called out for it, regardless of your sex.
And no we aren't calling gone home bad and not a game because it was developed by women, we call it a bad game, and, not a game because it's what it [I]IS[/I], or isn't.
And people making fun of the story twist, by inserting that twist into the title, oh no, humour.
[QUOTE=Viper202;44309951]Do you happen to follow every user on Tumblr? I'm pretty sure there's people that don't share your ideals that would think differently than the small hundreds of blogs you probably follow.
And fuck off with the sarcastic emotes.[/QUOTE]
Could you provide any examples of the website criticizing Ellie or other things mentioned in your original point? I honestly can't say I've seen any hate at all, only praise. It's good to remember that Tumblr isn't one person with a single mindset, but I'm curious none the less to hear alternative views
[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;44309962]Expect no one does that, I have literally never seen anyone discredit women from the video games industry, just because they are women.
Of course Unless we are talking about those developers who put their agenda in front of focusing on good games, in which case, you will be called out for it, regardless of your sex.[/QUOTE]
I know this isn't gaming-related, so it might be a bit wrong to bring it up here, but only a few days ago, this was posted in Sensationalist Headlines and I personally thought it was an interesting read:
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1376551[/url]
[QUOTE=NiandraLades;44310269]Could you provide any examples of the website criticizing Ellie or other things mentioned in your original point? I honestly can't say I've seen any hate at all, only praise. It's good to remember that Tumblr isn't one person with a single mindset, but I'm curious none the less to hear alternative views[/QUOTE]
I misread what he said, but I still stand by the emote bullshit though. Adding a smug little face to it is how you convince people to either not read your shit properly or ignore it.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44309543]Can't tell you how often I've heard men say, "women should just make games themselves if they want to change the gaming scene." And when they do, women are cunts and bitches who shouldn't be making games. Shifting goalposts! As soon as women make games, "oh, they're not [I]real [/I]games".[/QUOTE]
You're really trying your hardest to make things up, aren't you?
I have never in my life seen a game get bashed simply for having female developers on board.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44309543]and also your sly supposition that "feminists/SJWs" do not have any talent...[/QUOTE]
Because they're too busy complaining and dragging down artists. And what I said from my previous comment too.
I'm sure you could be friends with guys like Tom Preston, Aaron Diaz and such.
[QUOTE=Viper202;44309951]And fuck off with the sarcastic emotes.[/QUOTE]
Geez, no need to be rude, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic.
[QUOTE=ADT;44310403]You're really trying your hardest to make things up, aren't you?
I have never in my life seen a game get bashed simply for having female developers on board.[/QUOTE]
Obviously it's not as simple as that! But really, when you hear people saying "I have literally never seen anyone discredit women from the video games industry, just because they are women"... you gotta wonder if they're even listening to the people they're talking about... because you hear cases of discrimination, terrible behaviour, harassment, etc. every single week (see what NiandraLandes posted above!)
[QUOTE=ADT;44310403]Because they're too busy complaining and dragging down artists. And what I said from my previous comment too.[/QUOTE]
Advocating for diversity in art is [I]dragging down artists?[/I] Are you serious?
[QUOTE=ADT;44310403]I'm sure you could be friends with guys like Tom Preston, Aaron Diaz and such.[/QUOTE]
Uh... your point being?
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44310660]Geez, no need to be rude, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic.[/QUOTE]
:|
[QUOTE=Tasm;44253475]Precipitation Award for biggest emotional impact... And Monster girl wins 5/12 fields.
This had got to be some stupid joke.[/QUOTE]
MGQ winning awards is due to the lack of competition rather than MGQ's merits. Mind you I haven't played them, but there haven't exactly been many contenders for good story.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;44309944]a.) olga is decidedly masculine, it's part of her character design
b.) neither olga nor fortune are the player character. we are talking about the hero complex and the masturbatory power fantasy that are male player characters.
c.) once again, being an illogical doof that is incapable of changing anything is a trait that is stereotypically aligned with women. how many times have you heard "she's just being emotional?"
d.) another perfect example (that I feel shouldn't be controversial) of this exact effect is why people [I]hate[/I] Metroid: Other M. Because Samus, a strong female character, suddenly is turned into a lovey dovey completely incapable character that faints at all crucial points in the story and needs to be saved by her boy toy.
being an incompetent doof is [I]not[/I] a uniquely female trait, you're right - but being emotional and illogical are some of the main stereotypes associated with women. you can pretend that they don't exist all you like, but they do, and have, for a long time. all of the negative aspects of raiden are generally associated with his character being more feminine. they just are.
and re:relative deprivation vs the bait and switch, ONCE AGAIN perfect example of why it's a power complex. why does your character not being as hardcore and badass drag you out of the world? suddenly, the player character isn't satisfying your desire as a player to be infallible and awesome, now you've got flaws, and what's worse, those flaws are [I]feminine[/I], ewwww
is everyone who plays metal gear super badass? fuck no, so why should their player character being super badass enhance their immersion?
i should also note mgs2 is my fav mgs lol[/QUOTE]
raiden is your avatar in the story. if he isn't capable of affecting the story then you as a player are incapable of affecting the story. the reason the bait and switch sucks is because we're left without a protagonist, and without that we're cut off from the events of the game
look at donte, perfect example. incompetent asshole who next to no one would ever be capable of empathizing with. Because we can neither make sense of nor justify his actions, we're incapable of identifying with him. And if you can't identify with the protagonist then they don't function as one, and functionally the story no longer has one and it all just turns into a big crock of shit with no stakes and no catharsis.
All we need as an audience to identify with a character is an understanding of how they think. Protagonists are often generic because then you have to establish less about them before you place the player in their shoes, you're taking advantage of common assumptions to skip an awkward and difficult spot of storytelling. You can't identify with a character if their thinking and actions make no sense. If being feminine necessitates not making sense, then a feminine character can't be a protagonist.
you're literally just taking every trait that allows a character to influence a story and painting it as "masculine", so of course every main character in your universe is a masculine power fantasy. Because the only characters you would consider feminine are those who do not have an ability to impact the story and as such shouldn't be the protagonist.
In your lense of the world, any story in which the main character does something will automatically become a masturbatory power fantasy. You're applying psyche 101 where it does not necessarily apply and treating it as absolute fact, and instead of justifying or proving any of your claims, you just say "Hey, it's common psyche! That''s just how it works!" And I think you're intelligent enough to know what's wrong with appealing to authority.
ultimately if you're just going to assume that because you know high school psychology you know how everyone everywhere interprets everything in all art across all mediums regardless of context, I can't argue with you. if "it just is" is your argument, you've placed yourself above discussion.
[QUOTE=ADT;44308178]
Of course that would dedicate effort and talent in order to do that[/QUOTE]
Long Live the Queen is a pretty great feminist video game.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44310660]Geez, no need to be rude, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic.
Obviously it's not as simple as that! But really, when you hear people saying "I have literally never seen anyone discredit women from the video games industry, just because they are women"... you gotta wonder if they're even listening to the people they're talking about... because you hear cases of discrimination, terrible behaviour, harassment, etc. every single week (see what NiandraLandes posted above!)
Advocating for diversity in art is [I]dragging down artists?[/I] Are you serious?
Uh... your point being?[/QUOTE]
you're confusing audience backlash with workplace discrimination, people are talking about audience backlash
i mean if you're just talking about workplace discrimination cool but the people who say feminists should make their own games are the audience in my experience, and they aren't necessarily the ones involved with workplace discrimination
and just as an aside, i don't recall any community backlash against someone for being a woman working in videogames. I do see a lot of backlash against women in general, just not for that reason.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;44310802]and just as an aside, i don't recall any community backlash against someone for being a woman working in videogames. I do see a lot of backlash against women in general, just not for that reason.[/QUOTE]
There was the backlash against the community manager of that Megaman game which was blown way out of proportion
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44310786]Long Live the Queen is a pretty great feminist video game.[/QUOTE]
On that note, let's see how one of the creators of Gone Home feels about Long Live the Queen.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/NNoM42a.png[/img]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44310847]There was the backlash against the community manager of that Megaman game which was blown way out of proportion[/QUOTE]
Wasn't that because of the manager literally knowing nothing about Megaman?
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44310847]There was the backlash against the community manager of that Megaman game which was blown way out of proportion[/QUOTE]
yeah, but I don't remember anyone saying "we don't want women working on megaman". I mean, argue about the subconscious or implied meaning if you want, but if i remember correctly the complaints were "we don't want someone who hasn't played megaman working on megaman" and "we don't want someone to turn beck into a woman"
and i'll happily grant you for the first complaint, no one should care if the person running the twitter account has played megaman or not, and the second complaint is almost entirely nonsensical. but no one said the internet was smart.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44310847]There was the backlash against the community manager of that Megaman game which was blown way out of proportion[/QUOTE]
You mean the woman who knew nothing about the game she was hired over showing absolutely no credentials for the job? You mean the thing where her being a woman had nothing to do with anything?
You mean the same game that already had a woman on sound design? Why didn't anyone freak out about her?
Isn't it sexist to assume that everybody who ever criticizes a women is sexist? If somebody was being critical of a man nobody would bring up the topic of gender.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44311042]Isn't it sexist to assume that everybody who ever criticizes a women is sexist?[/QUOTE]
Good thing nobody is doing that then!
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44311042]If somebody was being critical of a man nobody would bring up the topic of gender.[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of sexist things that can happen in regards to men (nobody is claiming the opposite), they don't happen nearly as often due to men being the dominant group, even moreso in tech & gaming.
Like calling men "beta faggots" or whatever stuff such as rejecting people on whether or not they're fitting the perceived statu quo of masculinity... yes, it would be sexist
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44311042]Isn't it sexist to assume that everybody who ever criticizes a women is sexist? If somebody was being critical of a man nobody would bring up the topic of gender.[/QUOTE]
It's mostly safe to say that people can easily swallow the themes of war/conflict, but have a harder time getting immersed into games that inherit the ideals of progressivism.
Everyone knows the Mighty No. 9 controversy, some people were concerned about the community manager placing feminist ideals in the game because of her twitter posts.
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;44311662]It's mostly safe to say that people can easily swallow the themes of war/conflict, but have a harder time getting immersed into games that inherit the ideals of progressivism.
Everyone knows the Mighty No. 9 controversy, some people were concerned about the community manager placing feminist ideals in the game because of her twitter posts.[/QUOTE]
which, just to reiterate, is ludicrous. Community Manager essentially means forum moderator and hatemail reader, they have about as much pull in the actual game as the teamsters who schlep the cartridges onto the trucks.
These VGA's- I mean I know that they're not supposed to be taken seriously, but I just find it funny that it appears to try to go against things like Spike's VGA's, Mountain Dew Dorito MLG Call of Duty, EA corruption, etc. Like going against THAT side of gaming with things like "Shittiest x award" etc. But it is in fact just as bad of a hivemind attitude that it trys to go against.
For example- I generally agree that Gone Home is a bad game. HOWEVER, I simply do not know how anybody without bias, can state that it has worse gameplay than Beyond Two Souls. Gone Home is an exploration game, and for exploration game[I]play[/I] it's fairly okay. Not okay, borderline bad, but definitely not the worst gameplay of 2013. Two Souls was a couple hours of optional quick-time events... that's pretty much it. That's pretty much the ENTIRE experience. Two Souls is an interactive movie that asks you to participate- but doesn't want the experience to stop if you don't. (Or in some cases, waits for you to literally press X to advance the plot) It's so amazingly bad. And their reasoning for Gone Home winning worst is not having a lose state and "but muh $25 dollars" are you kidding me? If the reason is "not having a lose state" then Two Souls instantly wins there, but the bandwaggon effect is too large.
Also about that monster-rape game winning everything, even being on the ballot. I guess the excuse is shrug it off it's /v/ so it's not serious, monster rape beat a AAA title lol, but when you enable that kind of ridiculousness, it just becomes as obnoxious of a hivemind as someone who instantly declares every CoD title to be the best game in every category. I guess that's what it really is when it comes down to it though. It's an accurate representation of /v/, a board which promotes circle-jerking and feeling intelligent about it.
Goddamnit guys, you sure screwed it up with the votes on best women representation. FP and Reddit, not what you want to be bunched with.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44310847]There was the backlash against the community manager of that Megaman game which was blown way out of proportion[/QUOTE]
What do you think of Stanley Woo?
[QUOTE=General J;44311848]Also about that monster-rape game winning everything, even being on the ballot. I guess the excuse is shrug it off it's /v/ so it's not serious, monster rape beat a AAA title lol, but when you enable that kind of ridiculousness, it just becomes as obnoxious of a hivemind as someone who instantly declares every CoD title to be the best game in every category. I guess that's what it really is when it comes down to it though. It's an accurate representation of /v/, a board which promotes circle-jerking and feeling intelligent about it.[/QUOTE]
why shouldn't MGQ be on the ballot? it has more gameplay than gone home or beyond two souls. and it sure as hell beats both of them. it's legitimately a good game within its genre, just because it features sex (usually as a loss condition) doesn't mean it can't be taken seriously
and /v/ has been all over it ever since part 1 was released, it's no surprise than part 3 would get more popular from the hype and thus get more votes. a large part were probably joke votes but you'll get those in every category regardless.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44310660]
Advocating for diversity in art is [I]dragging down artists?[/I] Are you serious?
[/QUOTE]
If they're trying to "diversify" by trying to discredit/censor artists rather than making new stuff, yes.
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