It's pandering smut, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you feel the need to justify it, then maybe it's you who has problems with it.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;44300990]It's pandering smut, and there's nothing wrong with that, [B]but if you feel the need to justify it[/B], then maybe it's you who has problems with it.[/QUOTE]
No one felt the need to justify it until people started complaining.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;44300990]It's pandering smut, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you feel the need to justify it, then maybe it's you who has problems with it.[/QUOTE]
what makes it pandering smut, exactly
i just want to know where the line is here between sexy and smutty for future reference
[QUOTE=Mingebox;44300990]It's pandering smut, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you feel the need to justify it, then maybe it's you who has problems with it.[/QUOTE]
So you imply that there's something wrong with it and then suddenly your opposition "feels the need" to justify it?
To be honest, I find the mage's character design less sexist and more just stupid. The massive jiggling boobs are an unnecessary and lazy way to make the character stand out. It's like they were all out of ideas at that stage of design and just went "eh fuck it, let's just slap some huge boobs on there and call it a day". She looks like she's wearing some terrible Halloween costume.
Beyond Two Souls should have won worst gameplay.
[QUOTE=Ardosos;44301175]So you imply that there's something wrong with it and then suddenly your opposition "feels the need" to justify it?[/QUOTE]
Mr. Scorpio had it right. It's sexy for the point of sexy. Disingenuously trying to argue it's an exemplary female character just comes off across as someone trying to eat their progressive cake and have it too.
[QUOTE=Whatsinaname;44301296]To be honest, I find the mage's character design less sexist and more just stupid. The massive jiggling boobs are an unnecessary and lazy way to make the character stand out. It's like they were all out of ideas at that stage of design and just went "eh fuck it, let's just slap some huge boobs on there and call it a day". She looks like she's wearing some terrible Halloween costume.[/QUOTE]
well, i mean at some point literally every element of design is just slapping things on
i don't see how boobs are more or less lazy than a big hat, or a flowy cloak, or massive plate armor, or a big beard
they all need to be worked into the way the character moves and acts, they all present similar challenges to the designers and animators
[editline]20th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mingebox;44301361]Mr. Scorpio had it right. It's sexy for the point of sexy. Disingenuously trying to argue it's an exemplary female character just comes off across as someone trying to eat their progressive cake and have it too.[/QUOTE]
well, I also don't really get what "exemplary female character" means
in my eyes if a character succeeds in doing what the writer/artist wanted them to do, they're a good character
and for what it's worth I think dragon's crown pulled off what it was going for pretty well
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;44301401]well, i mean at some point literally every element of design is just slapping things on
i don't see how boobs are more or less lazy than a big hat, or a flowy cloak, or massive plate armor, or a big beard
they all need to be worked into the way the character moves and acts, they all present similar challenges to the designers and animators[/QUOTE]
If you're just slapping things on for the hell of it, you're probably a bad character designer. Just slapping things on is how you get Darksiders character design, where everything just looks like total overdesigned shit. Which isn't to say this is on the same level as Darksiders, but it still looks stupid. At least something like plate armor, a huge beard, etc. generally implies something about the actual character. A huge beard implies age and possibly wisdom, plate armor shows that the dude is a warrior who's strong enough to move around covered in metal, and boobs show that you should be looking at these right now hey look boobs. I'm not against characters having very distinct sexual characteristics, but I don't like it when they become pretty much the only thing that makes the character stand out. Even Bayonetta's design isn't 100% centered around sex appeal.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;44301401]well, i mean at some point literally every element of design is just slapping things on
i don't see how boobs are more or less lazy than a big hat, or a flowy cloak, or massive plate armor, or a big beard
they all need to be worked into the way the character moves and acts, they all present similar challenges to the designers and animators
[editline]20th March 2014[/editline]
well, I also don't really get what "exemplary female character" means
in my eyes if a character succeeds in doing what the writer/artist wanted them to do, they're a good character
and for what it's worth I think dragon's crown pulled off what it was going for pretty well[/QUOTE]
It means it would be an stand-out example that would be seen as moving the portray of woman forward. Obviously anyone who's been on /v/ knows they're taking the piss, as asking the average person there what they think of women is asking what someone on /pol/ thinks of Jews
[QUOTE=Whatsinaname;44301517]If you're just slapping things on for the hell of it, you're probably a bad character designer. Just slapping things on is how you get Darksiders character design, where everything just looks like total overdesigned shit. Which isn't to say this is on the same level as Darksiders, but it still looks stupid. At least something like plate armor, a huge beard, etc. generally implies something about the actual character. A huge beard implies age and possibly wisdom, plate armor shows that the dude is a warrior who's strong enough to move around covered in metal, and boobs show that you should be looking at these right now hey look boobs. I'm not against characters having very distinct sexual characteristics, but I don't like it when they become pretty much the only thing that makes the character stand out. Even Bayonetta's design isn't 100% centered around sex appeal.[/QUOTE]
i disagree
if you saw a person walking around in fetish clothes with a perfect complexion, that tells you that they care a lot about their personal appearance, that they enjoy feeling sexy and have a very forward approach towards sexuality.
I don't see how that's less or more information than a beard implying age.
And as for Bayonetta, yes, I think that's a really good design. But if you wanted you could easily break it down and say, "well they just slapped on a bunch of fetishes and called it a day". When you look at a character as just a series of attributes then anything could be argued to be "slapped on".
darksiders would be an example of slapping on way too goddamn much
I don't really like Dragon Crown's style, but the pulpy, ridiculously exaggerated thing they were going for, they pulled off consistently and well.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;44301587]It means it would be an stand-out example that would be seen as moving the portray of woman forward. Obviously anyone who's been on /v/ knows they're taking the piss, as asking the average person there what they think of women is asking what someone on /pol/ thinks of Jews[/QUOTE]
I think part of the problem for me here is that I'm not seeing progressiveness in the same way.
I don't see how sexy is not progressive. Progressive for me means more artists being able to create more kinds of things. Sexy boobs and deep character examination are both part of the advancement of art in my book.
Moving the portrayal of women forward for me would mean finding a sustainable market for more stories involving women, so that the artists who want to tell those stories can do so while paying rent. I don't think creating characters based on sex appeal is antithetical to that.
Sorry, I don't know how much of what I'm saying even applies to you. I guess I'm speaking more to the general backlash against things like Dragon's Crown.
But I liked Gone Home...
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44300486]yeah dude I'm sure you know girls with these proportions
I bet they also dress just like this
[t]http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo311/Stin_Sinatra/brujiDragon-s-Crown-Sorceress-dragons-crown-23006040-798-900.jpg[/t]
female characters don't have to be be petite to be progressive but clearly it's a problem when the extent of a character is nothing more than sexualizing for the sake of sexualizing.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;43972898]This demonstrates an extremely infantile understanding of suspension of disbelief[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;44300987]what's wrong with sexualization for sexualization's sake
sexy is fun[/QUOTE]
Because an entire group of people is negatively impacted at the expense of that fun. This is basically the same argument people used to justify racist cartoons in the 30s that you look back on in shame.
I remember when people who critiqued things understood things such as a thing being stylized.
In a game that portrays men as unrealistically as women, but backs it up with wonderful visuals and solid gameplay, it says something when the first thing people jump on and scream at is the presentation of aforementioned women.
Who cares if the men are massive hulking hairy monstrosities, or that the gameplay and artstyle are solid, or that it's an excellent "new" ip, or that the female characters are kickass. They dress in a fantasy manner, much like the men! How horrible!
pls play the game
pls stop being baby
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44302157]Because an entire group of people is negatively impacted at the expense of that fun. This is basically the same argument people used to justify racist cartoons in the 30s that you look back on in shame.[/QUOTE]
A video game set in a stylized fantasy world that portrays both men and women with massive exaggerated features for their gender (or the opposite gender, or both!) while being fun negatively impacts women in the same way that blatantly racist and offensive ridicule and mock an oppressed and enslave group of people. I'm pretty sure there's a group of people that would find that comment extremely offensive, too. I believe that the difference in this situation is that, for subject a, both genders are treated equally and are treated in those ways due to the art style, and the other was an attack on people that had different colored skin for the entertainment of the people who were realistically responsible for many years of torture.
There's also another group of people negatively impacted at the expense of fun. There's actually no relation, as these are completely different scenario, but I can throw huge lines to try and make a point too! The holocaust was considered fun by many, despite it negatively effecting an entire group of people. This big breasted badass sorcerer in this high fantasy stylized world is just as bad!
[QUOTE=LuaChobo;44302240]didn't you used to have some Spanish stereotype hat as your picture
I mean its ok if we know its a joke!!!!!![/QUOTE]
I never said there is no place for that kind of humor
And I also never said there's no place for sexualized characters
Okay wow, I'm going to have to retract some of the things I said before, having finally seen the other player character designs. When I was told about the dudes in the game also being exaggerated and being covered in armor and shit, I didn't think they meant [I]this[/I].
[t]http://images.pushsquare.com/news/2011/07/5_things_you_might_not_know_about_dragons_crown/attachment/2/large.jpg[/t]
Suddenly the sorceress doesn't seem so out of place.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44302157]Because an entire group of people is negatively impacted at the expense of that fun. This is basically the same argument people used to justify racist cartoons in the 30s that you look back on in shame.[/QUOTE]
Who's actually affected by it? And don't say women because I'm convinced that 90% of them who bitched about the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown were just insecure uglies with no sense of confidence.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44302157]Because an entire group of people is negatively impacted at the expense of that fun. This is basically the same argument people used to justify racist cartoons in the 30s that you look back on in shame.[/QUOTE]
i look back on the racist views those cartoons were born from with shame. The cartoons themselves are pretty funny, if only because they're ridiculously outdated.
I don't see how sexy drawings are in any way comparable, even if they were I don't see how they harm society any more than any other work of fantasy.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;44302301]Who's actually affected by it? And don't say women because I'm convinced that 90% of them who bitched about the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown were just insecure uglies with no sense of confidence.[/QUOTE]
Way to prove his point.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44302276]I never said there is no place for that kind of humor
And I also never said there's no place for sexualized characters[/QUOTE]
So what's a place for both of those?
[QUOTE=Whatsinaname;44302284]Okay wow, I'm going to have to retract some of the things I said before, having finally seen the other player character designs. When I was told about the dudes in the game also being exaggerated and being covered in armor and shit, I didn't think they meant [I]this[/I].
[t]http://images.pushsquare.com/news/2011/07/5_things_you_might_not_know_about_dragons_crown/attachment/2/large.jpg[/t]
Suddenly the sorceress doesn't seem so out of place.[/QUOTE]
isn't there a baseline level of investigation you should do into something before complaining about it
[QUOTE=Mingebox;44302308]Way to prove his point.[/QUOTE]
He never had a point to prove.
Anyway I know I'm not going to be able to convince you guys that the design is bad, I'm just trying to get the point across that the whole "this character is progressive because it doesn't cover women up and presents them as capable" is total bullshit. I mean if you think I'm dumb because "it was a joke" (despite him explicitly saying it wasn't) then that's fine by me because at least you recognize the idea is so ludicrous it's funny.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;44302341]isn't there a baseline level of investigation you should do into something before complaining about it[/QUOTE]
Yes, and I kind of fucked up in that regard.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44302276]I never said there is no place for that kind of humor
And I also never said there's no place for sexualized characters[/QUOTE]
If you aren't saying there's no place for sexualized characters then why did you say this in response to someone saying sexy is fun: [QUOTE=Venezuelan;44302157]Because an entire group of people is negatively impacted at the expense of that fun. This is basically the same argument people used to justify racist cartoons in the 30s that you look back on in shame.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=haloguy234;44302346]He never had a point to prove.[/QUOTE]
calling anyone who complains about something an "insecure ugly" is a really rude thing to say
you know stocking was supposed to be a judgemental asshole, right? she wasn't a model to base your actual opinions on
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44302353]Anyway I know I'm not going to be able to convince you guys that the design is bad, I'm just trying to get the point across that the whole "this character is progressive because it doesn't cover women up and presents them as capable" is total bullshit. I mean if you think I'm dumb because "it was a joke" (despite him explicitly saying it wasn't) then that's fine by me because at least you recognize the idea is so ludicrous it's funny.[/QUOTE]
well i mean you can't convince us it's bad because it fulfills all of the things that character design needs to on a technical level and everything past that is pure personal preference
i'm more interested in what you meant by it harming society
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