[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48753847]And all in all it doesn't really take away from the RPG aspect because you still end up with a ton of customization. Since most perks have about 3 ranks, you'd need to level up more than 200 times to get them all. Hell, just getting all the SPECIAL stats up to 10 will already take you like 30 levels.[/QUOTE]
Yeah it's quite a smart way to handle it. If they were gonna go for a system of abandoning normal stats beyond SPECIAL this seems like the best way to do it
[editline]24th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;48753870]I just hope it's actually finished on launch and properly tested this time.[/QUOTE]
It'll be finished but don't count on it not being buggy
bethesda is always buggy as fuck
it is still probably very possible to add in perk mods.
Beth has always been very supportive of modders, I don't think that's changed. But hey making the game awesome is always first priority.
This is the most gameplay I've seen since the E3 stuff
[editline]25th September 2015[/editline]
I like the UI though, a little messy but pretty.
Annnd no stats. Welp.
[QUOTE=Swilly;48754127]Annnd no stats. Welp.[/QUOTE]
there's still SPECIALs, although what exactly they do other than unlocking perks is unclear
[QUOTE=elowin;48754137]there's still SPECIALs, although what exactly they do other than unlocking perks is unclear[/QUOTE]
They're probably going to operate the same way they do in any other RPG lite; to get specific perks you need to have specific SPECIALs. Thereby locking away the perks you can get behind either a very easy fence or an impenetrable wall.
[QUOTE=elowin;48754137]there's still SPECIALs, although what exactly they do other than unlocking perks is unclear[/QUOTE]
As he scrolls through the SPECIAL stats, the descriptions for what they do is explained.
Strength determines carry weight and melee attacks, Agility is how fast your AP recharges and well you sneak, etc.
i hope we have some access to the perk list before choosing specials for our character
You won't be able to change your mind about the build you want very easily, that's for sure.
I love the new perk system, albeit it is really sad to see Confirmed Bachelor not making a return.
[QUOTE=Swilly;48754250]You won't be able to change your mind about the build you want very easily, that's for sure.[/QUOTE]
it was the same for nv/3 though. infact i'd say it was worse there than here.
imho this is a lot better than the skills system because it looks like my stats will actually have a noticeable improvement. When I played 3 and new vegas, I didn't notice a difference between 71 lockpicking and 56.
[QUOTE=Mike Tyson;48754305]it was the same for nv/3 though. infact i'd say it was worse there than here.
imho this is a lot better than the skills system because it looks like my stats will actually have a noticeable improvement. When I played 3 and new vegas, I didn't notice a difference between 71 lockpicking and 56.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it was easier because you could get to level 15 and decide that maybe you wanna put your points into something else, even if your SPECIAL didn't benefit it. Charisma and Speech come to mind.
However with this system, unless you increase your SPECIAL and sacrifice in a system suited for specialziation instead of Master of None; you pay the price early and later on.
In the old Skill system, you could change your mind from the start or even near the end if you wanted to and still get something out of it. Now? If its anything like Skyrim, not at all and infact you get even more locked behind certain things.
[editline]24th September 2015[/editline]
The old system had its faults, putting too much emphasis on Intelligence, however that was mainly due to Fallout 3 changing the skill values from 200 to 100 and not changing the number of skill points accordingly.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;48753870]I just hope it's actually finished on launch and properly tested this time.[/QUOTE]
Come on, its Bethesda.
[video=youtube;mpc3l2aVEXU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpc3l2aVEXU[/video]
[QUOTE=kyle877;48753164]It looks like skills are gone, eh?[/QUOTE]
No they're just perks as well, I saw it quickly pass by Sneak. I'm not certain how skills as perks is going to work, but I know it'll probably be better than the arbitrary DnD brownie point system of the last two Fallout games.
Pretty dumped down.
[QUOTE=Chi_DE;48754795]Pretty dumped down.[/QUOTE]
While I'd like to have Skills back, it actually seems streamlined rather than dumbed down.
It seems less simplified than Skyrim. That game felt like an action game with RPG bits being way less important.
I was really hoping for skills to make a comeback and it's almost a dealbreaker for me, as far as buying this with the intention of getting a 'fallout' game goes. The entire rpg mechanic has always been a central part of the fallout experience for me, especially the way things like damage reduction and attack damage are calculated in regard to skills. I was really rooting for a more refined character system, rather than just a simplified one that just scraps skills all together.
I mean, it looks like a fantastic game, no doubt about it but to me, it feels more like an action oriented spin-off rather than a true fallout RPG. I wish they would have focused more on getting the blend of FPS and RPG right rather than just tilting one way. It's not like Action-RPG FPS are impossible to get right, there's plenty of great ones so I don't see why it wouldn't have worked
Sad that skills are essentially gone, but I understand why. The skill system we had before was more or less used to represent just how good your character was at something, and didn't really have any meaningful bits of change until it maybe reached certain points. Like being able to unlock certain locks every 25 points. There was practically little to no difference between, say, 50 and 70 for some skills. It was also good for really detailed role playing bits, if you're into that sort of thing.
Basically merging skills into perks means that every time you level up, there will be a noticeable change that associates with it. At least in theory, if Bethesda makes the perk tree decently. If they don't, we could end up with perks giving us things we never really needed.
But hey, if they screw up, someone will just mod it to make it better anyway.
As for the whole perk chart bit, I would imagine it should be expandable to some degree. When Skryim first came out, people originally thought it would be impossible to add perks to skills and have it be reflected in the UI. Turns out, there was a dedicated function for it in the Creation Kit, so there was no need to worry. I'm sure Bethesda will have some sort of similar system implemented, because they know that people love to create overhaul mods for their games, and those overhauls usually include things like drastically retooled skills and perks.
My main concerns with the game right now are "Will Bethesda manage to write a decent story this time?" and "Will Speech be important in any way this time?" The first being because of the whole voice acted player character bit (you need to have a solid story to make this work), and the second being because Speech was fucking useless in Fallout 3. Mostly because there were barely any chances to take advantage of it, and you could save scum the system if you wanted to.
[QUOTE=H4ngman;48754860]I was really hoping for skills to make a comeback and it's almost a dealbreaker for me, as far as buying this with the intention of getting a 'fallout' game goes. The entire rpg mechanic has always been a central part of the fallout experience for me, especially the way things like damage reduction and attack damage are calculated in regard to skills. I was really rooting for a more refined character system, rather than just a simplified one that just scraps skills all together.
I mean, it looks like a fantastic game, no doubt about it but to me, it feels more like an action oriented spin-off rather than a true fallout RPG. I wish they would have focused more on getting the blend of FPS and RPG right rather than just tilting one way. It's not like Action-RPG FPS are impossible to get right, there's plenty of great ones so I don't see why it wouldn't have worked[/QUOTE]
It's not really simplified at all. Rather than having an arbitrary 0-100 number that only has any real effect on things when it reaches certain milestones, they just made it so it's just those milestones on display.
[QUOTE=Medevila;48754945]tbf in the original FO skills work more like perks do now, than how they did with FO3/NV skills[/QUOTE]
You think so? I never though of it that way, can you explain what you mean exactly?
I'm really just about the straight-forward 'number in skill x increases my chance of success for action x'. You had perks in addition to that in FO2, which would reward leveling a skill with a new special ability. The effectiveness of an action was still determined by the points in your various skills
[QUOTE=simkas;48755052]It's not really simplified at all. Rather than having an arbitrary 0-100 number that only has any real effect on things when it reaches certain milestones, they just made it so it's just those milestones on display.[/QUOTE]
Again, that's what I mean. Skill points did NOT work on milestones, it was a linear progression and the number in your skill could be directly put into, say, damage calculation. I just like how flexible and organic the numeric skill list is because every precious point matters. Sure NOW fife points in small guns might not make a world of difference, but i'm thinking 10 levels down the road and I'm gradually approaching my goal, bit by bit. You always have the character you want to play as as this sort of distant goal and you're slowly creeping towards that point. And spending a majority of your time with your skills somewhere in borderline-useless-land is just part of the appeal to me, because you slowly crawl out of that swamp of suck, one point at a time until the moment you go 'holy shit, I've never dealt that much damage before, this is starting to go somewhere'. I don't want to just pick and choose the individual things my character can do, I want to do them and suck at them hard and over the course of the game, very very slowly get just slightly better at them. There is also never a point when I am 'done' with a skil, I am never really able or not able to perform and action, just the effectiveness gradually increases. In a way, you define yourself when your chance of success is high enough to play the way you want to play, skills just go from 'terrible' to whereever you want them to be, instead of just directly unlocking and action and the beefing it up. This is what I mean by a linear progression vs instant milestones.
I like the layout of the UI, but I don't like the graphics on it. It's very busy, which isn't really to my taste.
I can see why people like it, though.
The animations on the pip-boy itself are very nice.
I hope the game will be different if a player plays as a "special" wastelander.
[video=youtube;b0Ocxk1UfxQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ocxk1UfxQ[/video]
[QUOTE=simkas;48755052]It's not really simplified at all. Rather than having an arbitrary 0-100 number that only has any real effect on things when it reaches certain milestones, they just made it so it's just those milestones on display.[/QUOTE]
Instead you have arbitrary stars that don't represent anything close to the math or systems behind it.
Yes, of course, it feels [I]so much better.[/I] Don't try and argue that perks are less arbitrary, they're another layer of literal abstraction from the player's understanding of how exactly the points and such will affect their chances.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;48752995]that intimidation perk sounds fucking cool
aim your gun at a lower level enemy and they might surrender
possible pacifist runs???[/QUOTE]
hopefully
i like to play high charisma characters to distract myself from how socially under-developed i am
Of course, everyone likes something they easily recognize as every other RPG has now adopted this system. Its not an evolution on the part of Fallout, they're just brought in line with every other RPG out there that has further removed themselves from the original P&P they came from.
If anything, Fallout's skill system is what set it apart from every other modern RPG.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;48755585]the star system makes more sense than the out of 100 system
you get a perk that gives 20% more damage w/ thing
next level is 40
whereas
you put 20 points into guns, does that mean your weapons do 20% more damage? or that they do 5 more flat damage? what does it actually mean?[/QUOTE]
The 0-100 in New Vegas was literally plugged into an equation.
x is Gun stat
x+(x*Agility)+[Luck/x]=Your total modifier which affects accuracy equations and damage rolls.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;48755640]ok but at a glance which one makes more sense[/QUOTE]
New Vegas makes more sense for me; and its easier to see what kind of rolls I can get knowing the equation which took less than a second to google and my skill score.
Every skill follows this formula; knowing this you can easily figure shit out.
Further, you're given more direct control of the skills instead of having to suddenly jump a certain thing by twenty instead of spreading points out to your liking.
So, the perk system gives you base perks to level up your SPECIAL, and perks that unlock when you have a certain SPECIAL stat at a certain level? Now, IIRC, it's been stated that the game has no level cap, right? So theorectically, it's entirely possible for a character to have every single perk, right? I mean, I think each perk has multiple ranks, so it'd take a long time to max them all out, but if I got this right it's still possible to have a character who's completely godlike by the time you reach the endgame. Honestly, I like that kind of thing, but it still makes the initial SPECIAL stat determination ultimately pointless since you can easily invest your perk points in maxing them all out if you really wanted to.
I love the look of this game but $70 is a bit much I will wait for the steam 50%
[QUOTE=Rahu X;48754931]Sad that skills are essentially gone, but I understand why. The skill system we had before was more or less used to represent just how good your character was at something, and didn't really have any meaningful bits of change until it maybe reached certain points. Like being able to unlock certain locks every 25 points. There was practically little to no difference between, say, 50 and 70 for some skills. It was also good for really detailed role playing bits, if you're into that sort of thing.
Basically merging skills into perks means that every time you level up, there will be a noticeable change that associates with it. At least in theory, if Bethesda makes the perk tree decently. If they don't, we could end up with perks giving us things we never really needed.
[/QUOTE]
Basically this. For most people I know, skills were basically a gate to get certain skills. The only places where skills mattered past that was for lockpicking and science, and maybe for certain speech checks. After all that, it represented complicated calculations that nobody really cared to understand. I think this streamlining is a logical progression.
[editline]24th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;48755656]New Vegas makes more sense for me; and its easier to see what kind of rolls I can get knowing the equation which took less than a second to google and my skill score.
Every skill follows this formula; knowing this you can easily figure shit out.
Further, you're given more direct control of the skills instead of having to suddenly jump a certain thing by twenty instead of spreading points out to your liking.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but you already know the equation. You, or somebody else, had to literally dissect the game code to reach that conclusion. "Want to know what a skill does? Google it!" is not a valid approach to game design. Sure there are always hidden mechanics and rules that govern those mechanics in every game, but when it comes to basics like these simplifications like Fallout 4's are ultimately better for the player.
[editline]24th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;48755566]Of course, everyone likes something they easily recognize as every other RPG has now adopted this system. Its not an evolution on the part of Fallout, they're just brought in line with every other RPG out there that has further removed themselves from the original P&P they came from.
If anything, Fallout's skill system is what set it apart from every other modern RPG.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's all fine- for a pen and paper. It's past time that video games played to their own strengths, and not to the strengths of different forms of entertainment.
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