[QUOTE=itisjuly;46994390]Freedom. We are(or at least should be) free to be what we want. If someone feels they're gender fluid, they're free to claim so. Times change, and so do people. We need to adapt to the new norms or we will end up like all these ignorant old farts we're so eagerly waiting to die off.[/QUOTE]
They can claim they're genderfluid or whatever, but that doesn't mean they are.
While times change, it's ignorant to assume that change is automatically good or desirable.
Genderfluids and that are not a new norm. They are a few people in the west whose only human interaction comes from people obsessive about pronouns. While I'll use the correct pronouns for transsexual people, I'm sure as hell not entertaining the use of pronouns for people who don't have legitimate body dysphoria. Half of all of those pronouns were invented in the past decade.
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46995237]Youre not getting what im saying or the point. With terms like gender fluid and agender it smashes the binary completely. They are not special snowflakes they are what they are, people who want to be a mixed gender or a opposite gender but keep their sex. Just because you dont like using a fucking word that describes it entirely doesnt mean the word or gender doesnt exist.[/QUOTE]
I think you and I have very different ideas of what gender is. By my understanding of the word, there is no definition of what either gender is which can be fallen out of. "Man" and "woman" are arbitrary classifications that exist for convenience, not strict categories with specific requirements that have to be met to fall under.
You can have both feminine and masculine psychological traits and still be either a man or a woman, because the words don't describe how masculine or feminine you are. They exist for convenience.
We both agree that gender is a spectrum. I just think that already existing words have a wide enough definition to cover the points on that spectrum that you're differentiating. Why should I redefine my words to be more strict?
I also kinda have issues with the idea of "gender fluid". As far as I'm aware people's personalities are fixed, and I always thought of gender as a part of personality. Changing what you identify with from day to day sounds more like uncertainty than anything.
[editline]23rd January 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Deng;46995691]They can claim they're genderfluid or whatever, but that doesn't mean they are.
While times change, it's ignorant to assume that change is automatically good or desirable.
Genderfluids and that are not a new norm. They are a few people in the west whose only human interaction comes from people obsessive about pronouns. While I'll use the correct pronouns for transsexual people, I'm sure as hell not entertaining the use of pronouns for people who don't have legitimate body dysphoria. Half of all of those pronouns were invented in the past decade.[/QUOTE]
the problem I have with using new pronouns is that it defeats the point of pronouns to start with
they exist for convenience's sake, the more descriptive and specific you make them and the more kinds you add the less convenient they become.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46995829]
I also kinda have issues with the idea of "gender fluid". As far as I'm aware people's personalities are fixed, and I always thought of gender as a part of personality. Changing what you identify with from day to day sounds more like uncertainty than anything.
[/QUOTE]Personalities are not fixed. At all. The most common example is that people change when they grow up. Any life experience can and will change your personality in small or big ways. For example loss of a loved one can potentially go as far as doing a 180 on someone's personality, making them an entire different person. Personalities are anything but fixed. They constantly change throughout our life, often in little details we don't notice but not always the case.
[QUOTE=Glitchman;46994749]I mean just be into what you're into without having to tell other people how to act or talk[/QUOTE]
a very ironic statement
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46995237]Youre not getting what im saying or the point. With terms like gender fluid and agender it smashes the binary completely. They are not special snowflakes they are what they are, people who want to be a mixed gender or a opposite gender but keep their sex. Just because you dont like using a fucking word that describes it entirely doesnt mean the word or gender doesnt exist.[/QUOTE]
But it doesn't exist, gender is not just the way you want to be, it's chemicals in your brain. It's not just attitude, not just looks, not just impressions. There's no such thing as "genderfluid" in reality. And creating it doesn't "smash" anything as you claim it does, it reinforces the binary by excluding everyone who doesn't conform to certain standards into some other group, protecting the [b]standards[/b]. It's simple logic - the absolute majority of people conform to one of the binary standards, the "default-ness" of these standards is not going anywhere on a whim. So you go out and [b]continue[/b] the exclusion of a minority, preserving its status as a minority. It solves fuck all.
Are you one of those people who wants to "smash" things for the sake of it? Isn't the problem that "gender binary" has is that it's sort of rigid? That it has too harshly defined borders for which gender you are, depending on features of your character? That it excludes many people who don't conform to these standards? And now instead of solving this initial problem, making up new genders just avoids, sidesteps the issue entirely. It's the [b]product[/b] of the issue, not its solution.
"Oh hey, you like wearing ____ and being a little bit ____ or ____ at times? Well, you can't be a ____, can you? No, that's not how it is, sorry. How about you are GENDERFLUID! Or AGENDER!" That's ridiculous. The reason people are uncomfortable being feminine man/masculine woman is the standards placed upon their gender. So the obvious solution is [b]inclusion[/b], not exclusion, expanding the standards, not creating even more sets of standards.
[QUOTE=Deng;46995691]Half of all of those pronouns were invented in the past decade.[/QUOTE]
I'm kinda interested in what pronouns were invented so recently. Because I'm fairly sure the only ones people who aren't fucking idiots and actually give a damn about LBGTQ stuff will use will be him/he/his/he's, she/her/hers/she's and them/they/their/they're.
Things like "xe" and other shit seem to mostly be thrown around by the same people who make awful attempts at jokes like "I identify as a cucumber!!!!! triggers omg!!!!". They aren't recognised by anybody with a mote of sense.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46995857]Personalities are not fixed. At all. The most common example is that people change when they grow up. Any life experience can and will change your personality in small or big ways. For example loss of a loved one can potentially go as far as doing a 180 on someone's personality, making them an entire different person. Personalities are anything but fixed. They constantly change throughout our life, often in little details we don't notice but not always the case.[/QUOTE]
When you're growing, your brain is actively changing in measurable ways. I consider that to be a special case.
You other example seems more like an aspect of mood than personality. And while your mood may affect how your personality is expressed, it doesn't change what it is.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46995877]
You other example seems more like an aspect of mood than personality. And while your mood may affect how your personality is expressed, it doesn't change what it is.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Mood does not change people for life. Hell even mr. nice guy can turn into an asshole and that is not because of mood or growth. Personality is one thing you can change about yourself if you are willing to put in the effort. Not to mention people naturally change throughout their entire life, not just while you're a kid and growing up.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46995906]I disagree. Mood does not change people for life. Hell even mr. nice guy can turn into an asshole and that is not because of mood or growth. Personality is one thing you can change about yourself if you are willing to put in the effort. Not to mention people naturally change throughout their entire life, not just while you're a kid and growing up.[/QUOTE]
What I mean by personality is your natural inclination.
You can change how you act, and certain experiences and events may affect in what ways you're comfortable acting, but how your natural inclination remains the same. At least, that's my understanding.
[QUOTE=gudman;46995863]But it doesn't exist, gender is not just the way you want to be, it's chemicals in your brain. It's not just attitude, not just looks, not just impressions. There's no such thing as "genderfluid" in reality. And creating it doesn't "smash" anything as you claim it does, it reinforces the binary by excluding everyone who doesn't conform to certain standards into some other group, protecting the [B]standards[/B]. It's simple logic - the absolute majority of people conform to one of the binary standards, the "default-ness" of these standards is not going anywhere on a whim. So you go out and [B]continue[/B] the exclusion of a minority, preserving its status as a minority. It solves fuck all.
Are you one of those people who wants to "smash" things for the sake of it? Isn't the problem that "gender binary" has is that it's sort of rigid? That it has too harshly defined borders for which gender you are, depending on features of your character? That it excludes many people who don't conform to these standards? And now instead of solving this initial problem, making up new genders just avoids, sidesteps the issue entirely. It's the [B]product[/B] of the issue, not its solution.
"Oh hey, you like wearing ____ and being a little bit ____ or ____ at times? Well, you can't be a ____, can you? No, that's not how it is, sorry. How about you are GENDERFLUID! Or AGENDER!" That's ridiculous. The reason people are uncomfortable being feminine man/masculine woman is the standards placed upon their gender. So the obvious solution is [B]inclusion[/B], not exclusion, expanding the standards, not creating even more sets of standards.[/QUOTE]
im not going to get through to you so you obviously don't understand the whole fucking point of calling it gender fluid or agender is so they can have a label for themselves to feel included and be identified. You can sit in your fairy tale world where gender roles will magically vanish, but for the time being those people want a label to identify how they feel.
and its just as arrogant to claim its not real just for your convenience.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46995969]What I mean by personality is your natural inclination.
You can change how you act, and certain experiences and events may affect in what ways you're comfortable acting, but how your natural inclination remains the same. At least, that's my understanding.[/QUOTE]Can you define what is personality?
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46995999]Can you define what is personality?[/QUOTE]
The way you're naturally inclined to act, separate from emotion or reasoning.
If you walk into a bar and you have the urge to yell "hello" to everyone there, that's your personality. If you decide not to because that isn't a particularly good idea, that's reasoning. If you then get really tense and quiet because the last time you were at that bar someone broke a bottle over the back of your head, that's emotion.
Again, that's just my understanding. This is just what appears to make sense to me, I invite you to prove me wrong.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46996042]The way you're naturally inclined to act, separate from emotion or reasoning.
If you walk into a bar and you have the urge to yell "hello" to everyone there, that's your personality. If you decide not to because that isn't a particularly good idea, that's reasoning. If you then get really tense and quiet because the last time you were at that bar someone broke a bottle over the back of your head, that's emotion.
Again, that's just my understanding. This is just what appears to make sense to me, I invite you to prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
But can't your natural tendencies change through life experiences? If someone realizes that yelling hello in a bar is a bad idea, how can you tell that they're conscious of it and choose not to do it, or that they changed their natural inclinaton towards saying hello to everyone, so it's natural for them NOT to do it?
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46996223]But can't your natural tendencies change through life experiences? If someone realizes that yelling hello in a bar is a bad idea, how can you tell that they're conscious of it and choose not to do it, or that they changed their natural inclinaton towards saying hello to everyone, so it's natural for them NOT to do it?[/QUOTE]
If they aren't doing it because there is a specific reason not to do it, and not because they don't feel the urge to do so, then that's a logical decision separate from their natural inclination.
If they don't do it because of the negative feelings associated with a past event, that's that's a matter of conditioning. As far as I'm aware no one can tell from the outside whether something is natural or conditioned, that's just something you need to figure out on your own. But I still believe that there is a separation.
Of course I'm not in a position to decide why any individual does or does not do anything, since I'm not a mind reader. This is just something that's consistent with my own experiences and seems to be consistent with the experiences of others as they're described to me.
The way I see it, you can no more change your personality than you can change what you're attracted to. You can condition yourself to act in a way which is opposed to how you feel, yes, but the attraction is still there.
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46995980]
and its just as arrogant to claim its not real just for your convenience.[/QUOTE]
It's not real not because I'm inconvenienced - believe me or not, I couldn't give any less shit about what people identify as. It's not real because a) it's not real and b) it's not solving anything, as I've pointed out. If it did, even in the long run, I'd be the first one to accept it. But the problem is, if it does anything in the long run, it serves further exclusion by cementing the existing gender binary, protecting it from any form of change. Okay guys, you feel inconvenient by all these people who don't conform to you views, but look - we'll call them something else now, and you won't have to reevaluate your preconceptions!
"Gender roles magically vanish", "fairytale" my ass, I'm not the one calling for "smashing the binary" by inventing labels for people to feel united among their radically diverse group, but excluded from 99.9% of the population.
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;46973533]Are you kidding? Most of FP is redpill tier neckbeards.[/QUOTE]
So what are you?
What makes asteroidrules such a good person?
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46995980]im not going to get through to you so you obviously don't understand the whole fucking point of calling it gender fluid or agender is so they can have a label for themselves to feel included and be identified. You can sit in your fairy tale world where gender roles will magically vanish, but for the time being those people want a label to identify how they feel.[/QUOTE]
Why must we create all of these additional labels? It is just devaluing the concept of male and female.
I mean say what you like, and argue until you're real mad, but the real world has men and women. It's boys and girls. Sure you have women who are good at business. I don't think there's anything wrong with men doing housework or being nurses. Girls can play with mechanical toys and like the colour blue, while boys play with dolls or want to become cooks or whatever.
Point is that they're still boys and girls, men and women in the end. Transsexual people are the same as well. They aren't fucking mixed genders but they are people who feel like shit in their bodies because of a genuine medical disorder and want to transition towards the opposite sex to resolve this. In almost all cases, transitioning has been proven as extremely effective.
Agenders and polygenders and bigenders and all of that nonsense is like saying that the sun goes around the earth. It doesn't, and neither are they whatever invented gender they claim to be. It just devalues the struggles that transsexual people go through, and says to people "you aren't a man if you like to wear womens clothing, you are a bigender" or some other nonsense.
People tried "smashing the gender binary" in the 1960s. It ended up with a doctor who tried to tell a boy he was a girl and it ended up in him killing himself. While it won't go that far with "non-binary genders", it will certainly confuse and upset a lot of people and make them think they have something wrong with them when they don't. All so that a bunch of social activists can feel good about themselves "fixing" a trivial nonproblem.
[QUOTE=gudman;46997632]It's not real not because I'm inconvenienced - believe me or not, I couldn't give any less shit about what people identify as. It's not real because a) it's not real and b) it's not solving anything, as I've pointed out. If it did, even in the long run, I'd be the first one to accept it. But the problem is, if it does anything in the long run, it serves further exclusion by cementing the existing gender binary, protecting it from any form of change. Okay guys, you feel inconvenient by all these people who don't conform to you views, but look - we'll call them something else now, and you won't have to reevaluate your preconceptions!
"Gender roles magically vanish", "fairytale" my ass, I'm not the one calling for "smashing the binary" by inventing labels for people to feel united among their radically diverse group, but excluded from 99.9% of the population.[/QUOTE]
yes they don't exist, that's why i know plenty of people who like being both genders when they feel like it and being gender neutral. But since you say they don't exist I guess they are figments of my imagination. How is adding more gender types cement a gender [B]binary[/B] since that makes literally no fucking sense. and holy shit god forbid you have to let a minority feel comfortable about themselves. But apparently that's not an inconvenience for you so what is stopping you from not acting like a piss baby and just acknowledge them for how they feel.
also that sentence "It's not real not because I'm inconvenienced - believe me or not, I couldn't give any less shit about what people identify as." basically fuck you for feeling different than whats normal to me, i dont give a shit. [I]hmm that sounds like another argument that was used against LGBT people.[/I]
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46998392]that's why i know plenty of people who like being both genders when they feel like it and being gender neutral.[/QUOTE]
Is this doublethink? It's literally impossible to be both genders at once and also to be gender neutral. When you feel like it?
Is this satire? Really the argument should be that you are this gender or that gender. You can be both but also gender neutral in addition? Really, think that over and explore what that actually truly really means. These are all contradictory things. You can't be both two genders and gender neutral.
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46998392]yes they don't exist, that's why i know plenty of people who like being both genders when they feel like it and being gender neutral. But since you say they don't exist I guess they are figments of my imagination. How is adding more gender types cement a gender [B]binary[/B] since that makes literally no fucking sense. and holy shit god forbid you have to let a minority feel comfortable about themselves. But apparently that's not an inconvenience for you so what is stopping you from not acting like a piss baby and just acknowledge them for how they feel.
also that sentence "It's not real not because I'm inconvenienced - believe me or not, I couldn't give any less shit about what people identify as." basically fuck you for feeling different than whats normal to me, i dont give a shit. [I]hmm that sounds like another argument that was used against LGBT people.[/I][/QUOTE]
As a person with a few trans friends who I support 100%, I have to say this otherkin, non binary gender shit isn't based in science or reality like trans issues are. They're based on real physical and biological elements. Can you seriously believe that there's biological and scientific basis for this?
I think it's pretty dumb to base gender around whether or not someone acts more masculine or feminine, but I also think it's kind of silly to act so sure about whether or not X uncommon gender/sexuality is real or not when you clearly don't know what it feels like to have those traits.
It'd be like a blind person saying the color red doesn't exist, or more like how people with sight don't really know what it's like to be blind.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46999139]As a person with a few trans friends who I support 100%, I have to say this otherkin, non binary gender shit isn't based in science or reality like trans issues are. They're based on real physical and biological elements. Can you seriously believe that there's biological and scientific basis for this?[/QUOTE]
considering its been a thing since greek civilization, guess it is a real feeling and thing people have experienced and not some random recent trend: [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny[/URL]
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46999609]considering its been a thing since greek civilization, guess it is a real feeling and thing people have experienced and not some random recent trend: [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny[/URL][/QUOTE]
Are you really saying androgyny is the same as otherkin?
Well that idea defeats itself thanks
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46999609]considering its been a thing since greek civilization, guess it is a real feeling and thing people have experienced and not some random recent trend: [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny[/URL][/QUOTE]
it says it right in the first sentence
[quote]Androgyny is the combination of masculine and feminine characteristics.[/quote]
this has nothing to do with not having a gender, or having your gender identity change back and forth
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46999632]Are you really saying androgyny is the same as otherkin?
Well that idea defeats itself thanks[/QUOTE]
Who said i said otherkin anyfucking where. Theres a massive difference feeling multiple genders and feeling like a whole different species.
[editline]25th January 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46999673]it says it right in the first sentence
this has nothing to do with not having a gender, or having your gender identity change back and forth[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]For humans, androgyne (/ˈændrədʒaɪn/ an-drə-jyn) in terms of gender identity is a person who does not fit neatly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society. Androgynes may also use the term "ambigender" or "polygender" to describe themselves. Many androgynes identify as being mentally between woman and man, or as entirely genderless. They may identify as "non-gender", "gender-neutral", "agender", "between genders", "genderqueer", "multigender", "intergendered", "pangender" or "gender fluid".[4][/QUOTE]
where is the bad reading rating when you need it.
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